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Separation of Education and State

Separation of Education and state

  • Total separation from all levels of government. All education privatized.

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total separation except for cities.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for counties.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for cities and counties.

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total separation except for states.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and cities

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and counties

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation from federal government only.

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • No separation

    Votes: 13 56.5%

  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Total voters
    23
ronpaulvoter said:
How do you feel about a separation of education and all levels of government. Would you prefer...

1. A total separation.

2. A partial separation.

3. A guaranteed state-provided education for everybody.

4. Something else (specify).
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Why in the name of anything would anyone want to divorce the will of the people from education? Even in the most free enterprise of educational systems, e.g. Germany, the state still sets regulations, standards for educators and pays at least the lion's share, even though more than half the schools are privately owned.

To rail against any government in education is ideological clap trap, poorly thought out, and likely eventual economic suicide.

The US currently is in the higher bracket for unemployed, no matter how much Obama and co. smear the numbers. There is an extreme shortage of white collar or "bright collar" workers, along with the fields on engineering, software and medicine. That was created through an eroding education system that is crying out for rehab, not profit seekers.
 
Fiddytree said:
I'm more of a secularist for a public school than a student would get from a parochial school, but perhaps too much of a religious proponent for hardline secularists. I'm more of a person wanting to teach it in an academic sense rather than try to inculcate Christian religiosity. Parochial schools have a cool idea of teaching it that's largely isolated to postsecondary students at the public level. As far as creating the environment is concerned, I'm less interested in that than finding an alternative means of installing similar values and decorum for the school community.

That being said, I also support the notion of propping up parochial schools with public funds, but (a big but) it seems politically undesirable despite the court's current go-ahead of the concept.
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I wasn't advocating old style Christian education in the public schools. I mentioned that as an example to debunk the "we've been doing it this way for decades thus it's not ever going to change" argument. Btw, I don't pay for my grandchildren's schooling because it's a Christian based school. I care about the academics and the school environment and shopped for the best I could afford with that in mind. That it was a Christian school was what swayed my daughter and son in law.

I support school vouchers to be used at whatever school the parents' choose. Everyone in the state gets the same amount per child and can shop for where their educational spending makes the most sense for them.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Why in the name of anything would anyone want to divorce the will of the people from education? Even in the most free enterprise of educational systems, e.g. Germany, the state still sets regulations, standards for educators and pays at least the lion's share, even though more than half the schools are privately owned.
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Where is that even suggested? Federal involvement in education is the farthest away from the will of the People as you can get here.
 
clownboy said:
Where is that even suggested? Federal involvement in education is the farthest away from the will of the People as you can get here.
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Please read the choices. The first is NO government involvement in any shape or form. No where is there anything limiting the discussion to federal involvement.

Please keep up and be aware of all the facts before you imply anyone is stupid.
 
Fiddytree said:
I'll agree with you. I don't study the Constitution at length. I know what people were doing when they were actually in power versus the rhetoric, but I'm not in any way going to purport to have studied the Constitution for a significant amount of time. I spend my energies elsewhere.
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Thanks for your candor on that.
 
clownboy said:
I agree, I've always found Fiddytree to be a poster well worth listening to in the past.
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He reminds me of Donsotherland1, while I may not agree, I have to respect the opinion and the intellect behind the opinion. Or an example from out in the world would be George Will.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Please read the choices. The first is NO government involvement in any shape or form. No where is there anything limiting the discussion to federal involvement.

Please keep up and be aware of all the facts before you imply anyone is stupid.
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Before you go that route you might actually read the choices:

Total separation from all levels of government. All education privatized.
Total separation except for cities.
Total separation except for counties.
Total separation except for cities and counties.
Total separation except for states.
Separation except for states and cities
Separation except for states and counties
Separation from federal government only.
No separation
Other (specify)
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And in what part of the post you quoted did I imply you were stupid?
 
Fiddytree said:
How about no.
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Does that mean you are unable to show the text in the constitution that permits such an exercise of power over the people of the states, or does it mean you simply wish to disregard the supreme law of the land?
 
Paschendale said:
I see that the posters in this thread like the idea of living in a country full of uneducated people. If not a democratic government to ensure the quality and funding of education for all, then who?
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We all know you like the status quo of teaching students useless information, support for common core and the corruption caused by teachers unions. Carry on.
 
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Paschendale said:
I see that the posters in this thread like the idea of living in a country full of uneducated people. If not a democratic government to ensure the quality and funding of education for all, then who?
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There are those who value education but also eschew the idea of using violence to achieve their desired ends. It is not just to use violence to acquire what one desires.
 
American said:
We all know you like the status quo of teaching students useless information, support for common core and the corruption caused by teachers unions. Carry on.
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But he has a point that you're ignoring. If the purpose of education is to teach facts to children, then we do need a strong central authority which can guarantee that the same facts are taught to kids in Tennessee that are taught in Oregon, the same concepts are taught in New York as are taught in Texas. Facts don't change with geography. We have, unfortunately, seen that a lot of localities don't like some facts, they want to change the facts, which is why I entirely disagree with putting the schools in the hands of the locals, who often have no education and no means of making a rational determination of what is actually true. I'm wholly with you to get rid of the unions and the liberal lean, but that doesn't mean we exchange it for the neo-conservative lean that a lot of communities seem to have. It's not about politics, it's not about religion, it's about education and what is true is true, no matter what you believe.
 
For much of this country's history, public schools, financed mostly through local property taxes, did the lion's share of giving Americans a basic education. And they did a good job--good enough to guarantee a literate work force and a population that knew enough to sustain our democratic way of life. Even well into the 1960's, public schools in the U.S. were generally pretty good. The U.S. stood head and shoulders above the world in all sorts of achievements--but then the long decline into collectivism and acceptance of mediocrity began to set in.

I really believe an average, rural person with a high school education, living in mid-20th century America, was, overall, smarter in the ways that count than most college graduates today. It's been said that nothing makes a person foolish like going to graduate school, and there is a lot of truth in that. All those degrees, all that cabinet-level federal involvement, all that state and federal money--and we end up with a nation made up more and more of either overeducated pasteheads, Homer Simpson types, or underclass idiots and thugs who are good for nothing but sponging off the labor of other people and breeding more just like them.

It's no accident that this embarrassment of a President came along when he did, or that he was re-elected. He is the man for our times--and God help this country.
 
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Cephus said:
But he has a point that you're ignoring. If the purpose of education is to teach facts to children, then we do need a strong central authority which can guarantee that the same facts are taught to kids in Tennessee that are taught in Oregon, the same concepts are taught in New York as are taught in Texas. Facts don't change with geography. We have, unfortunately, seen that a lot of localities don't like some facts, they want to change the facts, which is why I entirely disagree with putting the schools in the hands of the locals, who often have no education and no means of making a rational determination of what is actually true. I'm wholly with you to get rid of the unions and the liberal lean, but that doesn't mean we exchange it for the neo-conservative lean that a lot of communities seem to have. It's not about politics, it's not about religion, it's about education and what is true is true, no matter what you believe.
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Well guess what, they aren't learning. And people like Pasch don't want one iota to change, because they may reduce the authority of the federal government or the unions which is paramount to teaching children anything useful they may need. The public school system has been proven to be a joke after years of experience. The poorest students are the urban ones, which leftist howl about the most, yet have done zero to fix. Always yammering about the money, which nothing but a code word for power and union support.
 
American said:
Well guess what, they aren't learning. And people like Pasch don't want one iota to change, because they may reduce the authority of the federal government or the unions which is paramount to teaching children anything useful they may need. The public school system has been proven to be a joke after years of experience. The poorest students are the urban ones, which leftist howl about the most, yet have done zero to fix. Always yammering about the money, which nothing but a code word for power and union support.
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Whether they are learning or not is really irrelevant to this discussion. The idea that just because things aren't perfect right now, we should throw the whole system out and adopt another system which is just as prone to abuse, perhaps even more prone to abuse, is absurd. I don't care what Pasch says because he's not in charge of education. We know the current system is screwed up. Let's fix it. The absurd libertarian idea of just throwing it out the window and going with something that has absolutely no controls whatsoever is pathetically ridiculous.
 
Cephus said:
Whether they are learning or not is really irrelevant to this discussion. The idea that just because things aren't perfect right now, we should throw the whole system out and adopt another system which is just as prone to abuse, perhaps even more prone to abuse, is absurd. I don't care what Pasch says because he's not in charge of education. We know the current system is screwed up. Let's fix it. The absurd libertarian idea of just throwing it out the window and going with something that has absolutely no controls whatsoever is pathetically ridiculous.
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Congress has no power to interfere with the education policy of any of the several states.

You, as a citizen of your sovereign state, have the power to influence your state's education policies.
 
Federalist said:
Congress has no power to interfere with the education policy of any of the several states.

You, as a citizen of your sovereign state, have the power to influence your state's education policies.
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Apparently they do because they are doing it right now. I don't want my state to have separate education policies, I want every kid to learn the same thing at the same time in every school in the nation so that kids moving from one state to another state can immediately be integrated into the schools and not be a year ahead or a year behind. I don't want my kids walking into a school and having them learning pseudoscientific nonsense because the local churches have undue influence over the schools. Public education is supposed to be a wholly secular process. That can only happen when there is a single overarching authority keeping everyone at the same spot and with the same curriculum.
 
Cephus said:
Apparently they do because they are doing it right now.
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Please cite the text in the constitution that grants congress the power to interfere with the education policy of any of the several states.

I don't want my state to have separate education policies, I want every kid to learn the same thing at the same time in every school in the nation so that kids moving from one state to another state can immediately be integrated into the schools and not be a year ahead or a year behind. I don't want my kids walking into a school and having them learning pseudoscientific nonsense because the local churches have undue influence over the schools. Public education is supposed to be a wholly secular process. That can only happen when there is a single overarching authority keeping everyone at the same spot and with the same curriculum.
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Federalist said:
Please cite the text in the constitution that grants congress the power to interfere with the education policy of any of the several states.
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It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, it is actually happening right this minute, therefore they *DO* have the power, whether you like it or not. Power and permission are two different things.
 
Cephus said:
Whether they are learning or not is really irrelevant to this discussion. The idea that just because things aren't perfect right now, we should throw the whole system out and adopt another system which is just as prone to abuse, perhaps even more prone to abuse, is absurd. I don't care what Pasch says because he's not in charge of education. We know the current system is screwed up. Let's fix it. The absurd libertarian idea of just throwing it out the window and going with something that has absolutely no controls whatsoever is pathetically ridiculous.
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You argument limits the option along the same lines of authority that have always existed. There won't be any change.
 
Cephus said:
It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, it is actually happening right this minute, therefore they *DO* have the power, whether you like it or not. Power and permission are two different things.
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It never does, does it?
 
American said:
You argument limits the option along the same lines of authority that have always existed. There won't be any change.
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There won't be any change so long as the American people don't want a change. All of this is just smoke and mirrors.
 
American said:
It never does, does it?
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No and people need to be realistic about things. The American voters don't give a damn what the Constitution says and neither do the politicians. If that's all anyone has to go by, they've lost before they get started.
 
Cephus said:
It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, it is actually happening right this minute, therefore they *DO* have the power, whether you like it or not. Power and permission are two different things.
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It doesn't matter what the supreme law of the land says? Are you some kind of anarchist?
 
Federalist said:
It doesn't matter what the supreme law of the land says? Are you some kind of anarchist?
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No, a realist. In practice, it doesn't matter and you know it.
 
Cephus said:
No, a realist. In practice, it doesn't matter and you know it.
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The constitution does not grant congress the power to interfere with the education policy of any of the several states.
 
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