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Separation of Education and State

Separation of Education and state

  • Total separation from all levels of government. All education privatized.

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total separation except for cities.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for counties.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total separation except for cities and counties.

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total separation except for states.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and cities

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation except for states and counties

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Separation from federal government only.

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • No separation

    Votes: 13 56.5%

  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Total voters
    23
radcen said:
Have you seen some of the new schools being built? If money is an issue, this is one place we need to reassess. I don't suggest we cram kids in one-room wooden school houses, but at the same time we really shouldn't be spending so much money on sprawling campuses with amenities that look wonderful but often go unused.
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Yep. In my area there are schools being built all the time. Nevertheless, when it comes to staffing, materials, internal studies, and so on, funds continue to play a huge part of what they will be able to do. That's why states are usually reactive to federal interests. On some of the big things they aren't always be behind. They can in fact slightly precede the federal government in much of the legal language and requirements. The Feds can afford to throw money at a problem when states cannot.

But I will add that states are already strapped for cash on the students that take the most resources. The Feds hadn't kept their end of the bargain, leaving the states to do most of the work....and they aren't really succeeding without strain. That's why I'm even more skeptical about decentralization .
 
Fiddytree said:
Are you ever going to discuss education? If not, I'm not going to continue playing this game.

Libertarians are so hopeless at stating on topic or dealing with reality.
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Sure, if you live in Pennsylvania, I'd be happy to discus how our sovereign state ought to handle education.

However, when the states came together to form their union, they granted it no power to meddle in the education of their children.
 
Federalist said:
Sure, if you live in Pennsylvania, I'd be happy to discus how our sovereign state ought to handle education.

However, when the states came together to form their union, they granted it no power to meddle in the education of their children.
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So the union cannot act on behalf of the Interest's of the states that form the union.
 
Federalist said:
Sure, if you live in Pennsylvania, I'd be happy to discus how our sovereign state ought to handle education.

However, when the states came together to form their union, they granted it no power to meddle in the education of their children.
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Are federal grants considered useful to your state Dept of Education? Talked to anyone from there about how they see the relative usefulness or irritation the DoE provides? How's their new indicator development going?
 
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Fiddytree said:
Are federal grants considered useful to your state Dept of Education? Talked to anyone from there about how they see the relative usefulness or irritation the DoE provides? How's their indicator 17 going?
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Yes, blackmail works very well at this level. I take your money and in order for you to have some of it back for necessities you have to follow my rules.
 
ObamacareFail said:
I really should not have to explain it to you. Two examples are guns and bibles. The zero tolerance policy on guns is insane. If a child points his finger at another student and says: "bang", the child can be suspended or expelled offered mental health counseling. Same if a child bites his pop tart into the shape of a gun...or scribbles a picture of a gun. Most big city public schools also treat the Holy Bible as contraband. That is indoctrination.
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So yes, it's your conservative hot button topics. Nobody should have a gun in school. The thing about the finger is stupid, but let's be honest, that actually seldom happens. It was high profile once or twice, but it's hardly standard procedure. It's an overzealous attempt to keep the kids from hurting each other. It has nothing to do with the politics of the situation.

As for bibles, the first amendment says no mixing government and religion. You can have all the bibles you like in a private school, but you leave religion out of public schools. That means any religion or any take on religion. Means no Ramayana just as much as no bible. No discussion of religion at all, pro or con. Except for relevant history or in a comparative religion setting, but then it's treated academically, not about its truth or falsity. It also means that the science curriculum doesn't include religious objections to settled science. It just includes the science.

So no, there's no indoctrination. There's just a few things that annoy you.
 
Fiddytree said:
Are federal grants considered useful to your state Dept of Education? Talked to anyone from there about how they see the relative usefulness or irritation the DoE provides? How's their new indicator development going?
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No constitutional authority for such grants.
 
clownboy said:
Yes, blackmail works very well at this level. I take your money and in order for you to have some of it back for necessities you have to follow my rules.
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Blackmail is a funny word for that. For some things I guess you could consider it a bit of toying ( I don't usually consider that a bad thing) but plenty of other times you'll have them begging for the federal funds to do a project or a study they thought needed but couldn't fund.
 
Federalist said:
No constitutional authority for such grants.
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Irrelevant, since it's been going on for decades. Have you or have you not found out what these grants purport to do and whether or not the folks in charge of administering it find it counterproductive or useful-and if so, what ones?
 
Fiddytree said:
Blackmail is a funny word for that. For some things I guess you could consider it a bit of toying ( I don't usually consider that a bad thing) but plenty of other times you'll have them begging for the federal funds to do a project or a study they thought needed but couldn't fund.
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I believe it's apt. The last situation you note is only because the feds have taken the money away already and have decided to dole it out as educational grants for research. They've inserted themselves into it, a false and unnecessary middleman.
 
Federalist said:
The law stands regardless of how long it has been violated.
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You told me you want to discuss your state's execution of education. I gave you one big means of federal intervention and you don't even bother discussing it.

You Internet libertarians are so damn predictable. Do some research for a change. You guys are like Marxists.
 
clownboy said:
I believe it's apt. The last situation you note is only because the feds have taken the money away already and have decided to dole it out as educational grants for research. They've inserted themselves into it, a false and unnecessary middleman.
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I don't see how the states would have enough funds to do all it currently does with federal interventions and incentives. The states don't have that much money to give, even without a middle man.
 
Fiddytree said:
Irrelevant, since it's been going on for decades. Have you or have you not found out what these grants purport to do and whether or not the folks in charge of administering it find it counterproductive or useful-and if so, what ones?
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Christian education was going on in many of our public schools for almost two hundred years before the courts recognized it was unconstitutional. A whole lot of administrators thought it was useful to the educational environment.
 
Fiddytree said:
I don't see how the states would have enough funds to do all it currently does with federal interventions and incentives. The states don't have that much money to give, even without a middle man.
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They don't have the money to spend BECAUSE of the middleman. Where do you think the federal funding for education comes from?
 
Fiddytree said:
You told me you want to discuss your state's execution of education. I gave you one big means of federal intervention and you don't even bother discussing it.

You Internet libertarians are so damn predictable. Do some research for a change. You guys are like Marxists.
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Congress has no power to interfere in how the people of the states educate their children.

Feel free to show the text in the constitution that permits such an exercise of power over the people of the states.
 
clownboy said:
Christian education was going on in many of our public schools for almost two hundred years before the courts recognized it was unconstitutional. A whole lot of administrators thought it was useful to the educational environment.
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I'm more of a secularist for a public school than a student would get from a parochial school, but perhaps too much of a religious proponent for hardline secularists. I'm more of a person wanting to teach it in an academic sense rather than try to inculcate Christian religiosity. Parochial schools have a cool idea of teaching it that's largely isolated to postsecondary students at the public level. As far as creating the environment is concerned, I'm less interested in that than finding an alternative means of installing similar values and decorum for the school community.

That being said, I also support the notion of propping up parochial schools with public funds, but (a big but) it seems politically undesirable despite the court's current go-ahead of the concept.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
One of those happens to be the necessary and proper clause.
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"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Which of the foregoing powers allows congress to involve itself in the education of the people of the states?
 
Eric7216 said:
There is a role for all levels of government in providing funding for education. It seems to me that there could be some scales of economy in creating lesson plans, computer based and track self paced learning, etc. on the federal level and make this available to local school districts, public and private.
The best educational systems seem to be in Finland, Denmark, Australia, and New Zealand. In Finland, the Education Minister gives credit to local control of schools. In Denmark, private schools make up a good part of the program, subsidized with vouchers. Both countries have less required years than the US. So, there should be local controls, vouchers to allow more private schools, including religious based ones.
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Well Canada also ranks up there and according to the OECD outranks all of those countries except Finland, we come in right after them. We have a largely public system with only 5.6% of students attending private schools. At least in Ontario we have two public school systems, one secular and one Catholic then on top that we have French ones.
 
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