Is America the greatest nation on earth?

Peter Grimm said:

My thoughts: Yes, this is the greatest nation on earth. Below are some of the reasons....

- We're the richest. We have more money than any other nation on earth and it ain't close.
- We're the smartest. We have something like over half of the world's Nobel Prize winners. Our universities are the top ranked in the world.
- We're the most industrial. Modern industry as you know it was invented and perfected in the US of A.
- We kick ass. Most powerful military in the history of human civilization relative to our contemporaries
- We're not sissies - looking at you, France
- We innovate. We invented pretty much everything in existence in the modern world, and that trend is continuing.
- We sent a man to the moon for christ's sake. That was 50 years ago. No other nation has yet to be able to do it, even today.
- We don't have stupid royalty or aristocracies. America is the only country on earth where going rags to riches is truly seen as possible.
- We dominate the global political scene. If America wants something done, such as a treaty, it gets done.
- Other nations need us more than we need them.
- We utterly dominate popular culture and the arts - Hollywood baby. ALL the movies that seen by a broad audience are American. We invented rock and roll, the blues, rap, hip hop, and all the modern media. We invented television, and pretty much everything that goes on it.


I could go on, but that's a start.

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Actually chinas economy is bigger than ours. So they now have more money...

The Nobel prize is a joke made up by a rich man because he felt bad. I put little stock in it, especially the peace prize.

Industrialism is far from perfect. It subjugates the workers as wage slaves.

France actually has the top military in Europe besides Russia. They helped train the green berets. They are the 4th arms exporter in the world. And they have the only naval battle group outside the us.

We did not invent everything in modern existence. For example we did not invent the telephone or antibiotics, among hundreds of other notable inventions.

Multiple other country's could easily put a man on the moon today (Russia and China come to mind) but their is no reason to. Their is nothing on the moon, and its very expensive.

Going from rags to riches has always been nearly impossible in america, and is much easier in other countries today with more supportive governments.

We can "get things done" because of our military prowess. And certain country's do not listen if they don't want to. Like China, or Russia, or north Korea, or Uruguay, or countless other countries. We do what your talking about through economic manipulation and force. Its not a good thing...

Actually south Korea has its own Hollywood, people their watch allot of their movies, their are countless movies in Europe Europeans watch as well.

This is a classic example of false american exceptionality. Like how people think we have the best healthcare, but really were number 38. Right before Cuba, and like 5 or 6 after Costa Rica. If memory serves Saudi Arabia is like 18th.

NoC_T said:

Absolutely.

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Kindly dont alter my posts, thats unamerican. Thanks.

US Conservative said:

Yo! Mah brotha from another mutha!

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'Sup, dawg!

NoC_T said:

'Sup, dawg!

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Whats sup is America is the greatest nation on earth. Get used to it.

We used to be great! In fact I would go so far as say that we were the envy of the world.
Somewhere along the way from then to now, we lost our way.

And as you suggested focusing on
1.) Freedom 2.) Diversity 3.) Opportunity

1. FREEDOM:
AS IN LIBERTY? --- NOPE
Surveillance State: The NSA is monitoring pretty much EVERYTHING
Stop-And-Frisk threw mostly minorities in the slammer.
ALEC wrote many laws to ensure that prisons (privatized) stay full.

2. DIVERSITY:
AS IN TOLERANCE? --- NOPE
If you're a same-sex couple trying to get married many a State Legislature will fight you tooth and nail.

3. OPPORTUNITY?
AS IN ECONOMIC? --- NOPE
One health crisis and, poof! Wage earner is sidelined, and a family could be crushed.
Wages have more or less flat-lined over the past decade.
College costs are a huge burden
Wall Street tanked the economy; turning it into a casino (Derivatives, SubPrime crap, QE2, Mortgages under water, etc.)

That's about it for now.

Peter Grimm said:

My thoughts: Yes, this is the greatest nation on earth. Below are some of the reasons....

- We're the richest. We have more money than any other nation on earth and it ain't close.
- We're the smartest. We have something like over half of the world's Nobel Prize winners. Our universities are the top ranked in the world.
- We're the most industrial. Modern industry as you know it was invented and perfected in the US of A.
- We kick ass. Most powerful military in the history of human civilization relative to our contemporaries
-

We're not sissies - looking at you, France

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- We innovate. We invented pretty much everything in existence in the modern world, and that trend is continuing.
- We sent a man to the moon for christ's sake. That was 50 years ago. No other nation has yet to be able to do it, even today.
- We don't have stupid royalty or aristocracies. America is the only country on earth where going rags to riches is truly seen as possible.
- We dominate the global political scene. If America wants something done, such as a treaty, it gets done.
- Other nations need us more than we need them.
- We utterly dominate popular culture and the arts - Hollywood baby. ALL the movies that seen by a broad audience are American. We invented rock and roll, the blues, rap, hip hop, and all the modern media. We invented television, and pretty much everything that goes on it.


I could go on, but that's a start.

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Could the 13 colonies ever have defeated Britain in the Revolutionary War without France's considerable help? I doubt it, but we'll never really know.

b_dubz said:

Actually chinas economy is bigger than ours. So they now have more money...

The Nobel prize is a joke made up by a rich man because he felt bad. I put little stock in it, especially the peace prize.

Industrialism is far from perfect. It subjugates the workers as wage slaves.

France actually has the top military in Europe besides Russia. They helped train the green berets. They are the 4th arms exporter in the world. And they have the only naval battle group outside the us.

We did not invent everything in modern existence. For example we did not invent the telephone or antibiotics, among hundreds of other notable inventions.

Multiple other country's could easily put a man on the moon today (Russia and China come to mind) but their is no reason to. Their is nothing on the moon, and its very expensive.

Going from rags to riches has always been nearly impossible in america, and is much easier in other countries today with more supportive governments.

We can "get things done" because of our military prowess. And certain country's do not listen if they don't want to. Like China, or Russia, or north Korea, or Uruguay, or countless other countries. We do what your talking about through economic manipulation and force. Its not a good thing...

Actually south Korea has its own Hollywood, people their watch allot of their movies, their are countless movies in Europe Europeans watch as well.

This is a classic example of false american exceptionality. Like how people think we have the best healthcare, but really were number 38. Right before Cuba, and like 5 or 6 after Costa Rica. If memory serves Saudi Arabia is like 18th.

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Just Curious, what would be so impressive about putting a Man on the Moon in 2014 ? With all of our technological advances ?

What's impressive about the Moon Missions is that they were done over 40 years ago with the technology of that time.

And I wouldn't bet on other Countries successfully landing anything on the Moon either.

They couldn't land that Space probe on that Comet successfully.

And they had the advantage of modern Technology.

Leo said:

LOL, and "We could do it if we wanted to - but we are happy to eschew an enormous world-wide market, so we will continue producing mediocre, gas-guzzling and cumbersome vehicles?" is a good argument? Like commercial organisations think that way?

And do you not think that automotive status is not dictated by price alone. In Australia, a top of the range Lexus sells for slightly more than a five series BMW or a Mercedes E-class. The sales of said Lexus are miniscule compared to those of BMW and Mercedes. Why, because while it is carefully made, reasonably reliable, and well-equipped with creature comforts, it has less dynamic magic than a Toyota Camry - and wealthy Australians stay away in droves. Prestige is gained by what a vehicle does, not what it costs, or how many things that open and shut it offers. Anyone who ascribes prestige by monetary cost is a parvenu.

If GM or Ford produced a car that bettered the European/Japanese opposition (in every price range) do you not think they would command a better share of the market across the world? It is not simply expensive American designed and manufactured cars which are shunned worldwide, they all are, and it is not simply because they are American. American owned motor manufacturers, such as Ford (GB) and Opel in Germany, produce vehicles which more than compete with the Japanese, Koreans, and other Europeans in the low to medium price ranges. But these are designed and produced by Europeans, who draw upon their engineering heritage.

But look, this is not an indictment of the USA. Some societies do some things better than others, and we all have our strengths and weaknesses. I think your society does enough important things well not to have to depend upon fantasies of being pre-eminent in all things. And I reiterate that the only reason I addressed this matter was the claim by some unrealistically patriotic soul, that the the internal combustion engine was invented in the USA.

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To think that US auto makers could not build a car just as good as anything from Europe is just silly. Now if they could do it at the same price or close enough to make it worth their time is another matter. There really isnt any secret in how to design a car.
And it is funny that you talk about how the US auto makers eschew the world-wide market, That is funny because the best selling car in the world is a Ford. The second largest auto maker is a US company. In fact their is only one European auto maker in the top 8 largest auto makers. Maybe the Europeans should start working on increasing their market share.

And than you talk those cars higher quality and reliability as if that has anything to do with why more wealthy folks buy BMWs or MB. That doesn't hold much water when Consumer reports has BMW as the 14th most reliable and MB as 24th GM Ford and Chrysler are all ahead of MB. Quality has almost nothing to do with it. If it did Buick which is rated as 6 should be more coveted than BMW or MB.

You are right that the status does not just come from price. Things like exclusivity, as well as just perceived branding have a ton to due with. A perfect example of this is the Corvette ZR1. It can pretty much dominate any other sports car outside of a very few super priced exotics. It also is known for much better reliability than your Ferrari's or Lambos that cost 100000 or so more. With that said no one who is looking at buying a Ferrari 458 is going to consider a ZR1. Now tell me why, The ZR1 has more horsepower, it has a higher top speed. is faster around a track, stops at least as quickly. The only area that the Ferrari wins (outside of subjective areas) is in quality of interior but keep two things in mind. One these are sports cars and two the Ferrari is over 1 hundred thousand dollars more expensive. It is all about exclusivity and perception. It is about image.

Look I am not saying that US auto makers make the best cars in the world. I am just saying that your idea that because wealthy folks buy BMWs or MB has anything to do with quality is just silly.
America makes some great cars and they also make some crap cars. They also tailor a lot to the US market which is for the most part different than the European market.

This is a good thread from a sociological perspective. It lets us examine the issue of pride. When people's pride feels threatened, they lash out and counter.

"Greatness" is relative. There have been nations that ruled more of this planet than America has, been around for longer, made way more contributions to inventions, science, etc. than America has. And on that note, a lot of our greatest inventions were created by foreigners who immigrated here. Why does the location of the invention matter?

Every country has its greatnesses and its weaknesses. The whole "we're #1!!" thing is infantile. What matters is if we're happy, prosperous, and peaceful. If we have that then the rankings don't matter.

I've been to countries with way less, materially speaking, and the people were much happier. Therefore, looking at our assets as a determination of our greatness isn't all that relevant.

If you look at the current spirit of America, I'd say we've fallen down a few notches.

We need to start looking at things in terms of the human whole. When someone invents something, it helps all of humanity, not just "America".

shrubnose said:

Could the 13 colonies ever have defeated Britain in the Revolutionary War without France's considerable help? I doubt it, but we'll never really know.

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Never understood the French being sissies thing...

They fought hard in Vietnam and lost, just like we did.

They fought hard in WWI just like everybody else.

They got an ass whooping in WWII just like everybody else did in the beginning and the only difference between them and Russia was real estate and Britain had the Channel. Without the Channel or the real estate those guys were dead too, as was Denmark, Belgium, Norway, Poland and a handful of other nations.

They fought hard in the French and Indian Wars and decided to retire instead...

They helped us to win in the Revolutionary War. That was nice of them....

Fenton said:

Just Curious, what would be so impressive about putting a Man on the Moon in 2014 ? With all of our technological advances ?

What's impressive about the Moon Missions is that they were done over 40 years ago with the technology of that time.

And I wouldn't bet on other Countries successfully landing anything on the Moon either.

They couldn't land that Space probe on that Comet successfully.

And they had the advantage of modern Technology.

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And the beginning of the space race we had untold rockets blowing up and astronauts dying... so what? It takes time...

Bodhisattva said:

Never understood the French being sissies thing...

They fought hard in Vietnam and lost, just like we did.

They fought hard in WWI just like everybody else.

They got an ass whooping in WWII just like everybody else did in the beginning and the only difference between them and Russia was real estate and Britain had the Channel. Without the Channel or the real estate those guys were dead too, as was Denmark, Belgium, Norway, Poland and a handful of other nations.

They fought hard in the French and Indian Wars and decided to retire instead...

They helped us to win in the Revolutionary War. That was nice of them....

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i think it has more to do with american chauvinism than anything

Fenton said:

Just Curious, what would be so impressive about putting a Man on the Moon in 2014 ? With all of our technological advances ?

What's impressive about the Moon Missions is that they were done over 40 years ago with the technology of that time.

And I wouldn't bet on other Countries successfully landing anything on the Moon either.

They couldn't land that Space probe on that Comet successfully.

And they had the advantage of modern Technology.

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You're comparing landing on the moon to landing on a comet? They did pretty well with the whole comet thing.

The comet was 310 million miles away from the Earth, moving at a speeds up to 135,000 kilometers per hour.

whysoserious said:

You're comparing landing on the moon to landing on a comet? They did pretty well with the whole comet thing.

The comet was 310 million miles away from the Earth, moving at a speeds up to 135,000 kilometers per hour.

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Hey, he was comparing landing on the Moon 45 years ago to landing on the Moon today.

As if a Moon landing today would be a comparable achievement.

And honestly the Comet was cool but it was still a unmanned probe with no danger to human life if it failed.

Knowing that a Comet was going to be in an exact position at a predetermined time just meant they had to do a little Math

Fenton said:

Just Curious, what would be so impressive about putting a Man on the Moon in 2014 ? With all of our technological advances ?

What's impressive about the Moon Missions is that they were done over 40 years ago with the technology of that time.

And I wouldn't bet on other Countries successfully landing anything on the Moon either.

They couldn't land that Space probe on that Comet successfully.

And they had the advantage of modern Technology.

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That was my point. Once we did it no one else had the reason to. Certain country's certainly could today.

I bet China could land a probe on a comet if they wanted to... Possibly Russia to but I'm less confident in them...

instagramsci said:

i think it has more to do with american chauvinism than anything

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...and the fact that they LOVE Jerry Lewis.

Peter Grimm said:

This is seen as nearly axiomatic in some circles. In others, it's seen as misguided arrogance.

I want to know whether the maxim rings true with you, and your reasoning.


Focus specifically on these areas, if at all possible...... 1.) Freedom 2.) Diversity 3.) Opportunity

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It used to be.

Now it may as well join the EU.

That's what happens when ignorance is rampant. The country gets Gruberized and socialized... and since all socialist schemes die a bitter death, our demise is just around the corner.

18TRILLION of debt, 60TRILLION of unfunded liabilities, open borders, 92 million unemployed... baby boomers retiring everyday and will for the next 14-years, people living longer... a welfare system called ObamaKare... this pyramid scheme is going to come down one day... and...

... if we lose status as the world's preferred currency for trade (the Chicoms and Russians are pushing it)... then we're really farked... really fast.

America was once the land of the free, now we're like the morally bankrupt and financially bankrupt EU.

Way to go Demokrats... it's almost all due to your socialist schemes... your idiocy.

Good, carefully thought out and civilly worded post - so let's try to do it justice.

braindrain said:

To think that US auto makers could not build a car just as good as anything from Europe is just silly...

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Let's be accurate here. I have not claimed that a nation capable of the US's scientific and engineering achievements is incapable of building a car to equal Europe's best. I have stated (and I consider with good reason,) that US automobile manufacturers choose not to for reasons best known to them. And I agree that there is no arcane knowledge required to build a good car, but many years of experience (particularly international competition experience,) certainly does 'improve the breed'.

Let's be honest, there is no American equivalent of a Bugatti Veyron or a Bentley Continental. Granted, they are expensive, but there is no US automotive product that incorporates that level of engineering and quality.

braindrain said:

And it is funny that you talk about how the US auto makers eschew the world-wide market, That is funny because the best selling car in the world is a Ford...

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Actually, I was deriding the concept that US manufacturers eschew the world-wide market - it is my contention that every manufacturer would love to have impressive world-wide sales. I was pointing out that despite their best efforts, sales of US designed, engineered, and manufactured cars are minimal outside the USA.

I also pointed out that both Ford and GM enjoy considerable sales of European designed and manufactured vehicles bearing their names, but bearing no relationship to their US counterparts. The 10 top selling cars across the world do not include one American designed and manufactured car - the number one seller, the Ford Focus was designed in Essex and Cologne under the guidance of Englishman Richard Parry-Jones.

braindrain said:

And than you talk those cars higher quality and reliability as if that has anything to do with why more wealthy folks buy BMWs or MB. . Quality has almost nothing to do with it. If it did Buick which is rated as 6 should be more coveted than BMW or MB.

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Only by US Consumer reports. Both Benz and BMW have enviable reliability records in Europe and elsewhere - it is part of the reason so many police forces (including the British) use BMW patrol cars. My family has run Bentleys and BMWs for as long as I can remember, and I do not recall any reliability problems.

braindrain said:

You are right that the status does not just come from price. Things like exclusivity, as well as just perceived branding have a ton to due with. A perfect example of this is the Corvette ZR1. It can pretty much dominate any other sports car outside of a very few super priced exotics. It also is known for much better reliability than your Ferrari's or Lambos that cost 100000 or so more...

One these are sports cars and two the Ferrari is over 1 hundred thousand dollars more expensive. It is all about exclusivity and perception. It is about image.

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Valid points, except that the Corvette ZR1, whilst undeniably fast and a good track car, got terrible reviews in respect of ride, finish, and build quality from European testers. Admittedly exotics like Lamborghini and Ferrari are very expensive anywhere in the world (you gets what you pays for) but you must remember that US prices of European cars are much inflated due to a number of factors. Most Benzes and BMWs are very reasonably priced in Germany and in many parts of Europe, and as such, represent excellent value for money. By no means is image the major motivation for buying them (they are far too common on our roads to have any 'image').

braindrain said:

Look I am not saying that US auto makers make the best cars in the world. I am just saying that your idea that because wealthy folks buy BMWs or MB has anything to do with quality is just silly.

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I understand the overall point you are making, but to hold that someone who expends a lot of money on a machine, does so with no regard for quality is equally silly. Of course exclusivity may be seen by some as desirable, but were that the case, the garages of the European wealthy would be stuffed full of Cadillacs and US Fords - they simply aren't.

However, I understand the fact that the US is a huge market, and that American car makers tailor their product to the domestic market. This happens in many other markets.

Fenton said:

Hey, he was comparing landing on the Moon 45 years ago to landing on the Moon today.

As if a Moon landing today would be a comparable achievement.

And honestly the Comet was cool but it was still a unmanned probe with no danger to human life if it failed.

Knowing that a Comet was going to be in an exact position at a predetermined time just meant they had to do a little Math

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You're an insane person if you think landing on a comet moving 135,000 kilometers per hour while at 310 million miles away requires just "doing a little math".

Agreed that the moon landing in '69 was crazy as well, but I don't think you want to short sell this achievement.

Leo said:

Good, carefully thought out and civilly worded post - so let's try to do it justice.



Let's be accurate here. I have not claimed that a nation capable of the US's scientific and engineering achievements is incapable of building a car to equal Europe's best. I have stated (and I consider with good reason,) that US automobile manufacturers choose not to for reasons best known to them. And I agree that there is no arcane knowledge required to build a good car, but many years of experience (particularly international competition experience,) certainly does 'improve the breed'.

Let's be honest, there is no American equivalent of a Bugatti Veyron or a Bentley Continental. Granted, they are expensive, but there is no US automotive product that incorporates that level of engineering and quality.

However, I understand the fact that the US is a huge market, and that American car makers tailor their product to the domestic market. This happens in many other markets.

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Sorry had to delete some of your post to fit all mine in.

I think any unbiased person who read your last post about this would very much believe that you were implying that the US automakers can not build a car as good as Europeans. But if that is not what you meant than so be it.
The reason that US car companies have someone outside of the US design the cars for those markets is simply good economics and business. It would make zero sense for them to have one of their local, IE US, designers work on those projects it is simply that the vast majority of their efforts are towards the US market. It is far easier and more cost effective to have the people in the markets you are trying to sell in design your product. And as to where they are built that is simply economics. It is far cheaper to have them built outside of the states. US buyers far and wide are not interested in many of the same designs that are common else where. That simple fact has more to do with why US designed cars are not that popular outside of the US.

While I am glad that your family has had good luck with them that means little in the grand scheme of things. Consumer reports basses their reports off of a much larger sample than one family. I will take their word over your experience. And to add to that before I joined the Army I went to school and than worked as a mechanic for about 6 years. In my experience European cars have just as many problems as US cars but when something on a European car brakes or simply needs maintenance it is much much more expensive to fix. That in my opinion is where the Asian cars really shine. They are somewhat more reliable but also generally the cheapest to fix.

As to the ZR1 several things about that. First things like ride and impression of build quality is very very subjective. For instance some folks like a very nice supple ride others prefer a more firm precise ride. The same goes with build quality. Out side of major visible errors, which is not what they are talking about, no one can really tell build quality by looking. People go off of feelings. I have heard magazine editors talk about poor build quality by the way a door sounds when you close it. That is ridicules. The design and components used to design the door change the way it sounds. My 69 GTO sounds like a solid perfectly built car when you shut the door. Every single car built today has more quality than that thing. LOL The bias that magazine or TV writers bring to comparisons like that play very heavily on what they pick as far as whats better
As to finish I agree that the cars that can compete with the ZR1 have better finish and use better materials on the inside. Well they dam well should. Most of them cost over twice the price. You can not build a car that has the performance of a super car and have a have a Bently quaility interior and charge what they want for a Vette. The question is is having a nicer interior worth 100000 extra dollars. I would want to know why a car that costs half as much as mine just destroyed me on the track.

I never once said that those who buy cars such as BMWs or MBs do so with zero regard for quality. It does play a part just like perceived quality which is often not actual quality. But status and exclusivity play at least as big a part if not more with many of those targeted consumers. If quality was the deciding factor than they would be buying Toyotas or Hondas or even Buicks over BMWs and MB but those are not even people in the same market. There are many wealthy customers out there who would not buy an American made car no matter what because it simply does not carry the same prestige that pulling up in a M5 does.

whysoserious said:

You're an insane person if you think landing on a comet moving 135,000 kilometers per hour while at 310 million miles away requires just "doing a little math".

Agreed that the moon landing in '69 was crazy as well, but I don't think you want to short sell this achievement.

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X (go 135,000 mph)

+

y (go same direction as comet)

=

A (land on comet, easy)

Done. What's next?

I'm going to vote yes, but I'm tribal. From my viewpoint I would rather be here than in any other country. I might also vote no at times because we have so far to go to really be great. The bar is set far too low.

braindrain said:

I think any unbiased person who read your last post about this would very much believe that you were implying that the US automakers can not build a car as good as Europeans. But if that is not what you meant than so be it.

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If you implying that I am telling untruths, then I must take exception. Otherwise, I apologise for expressing myself inefficiently.

braindrain said:

The reason that US car companies have someone outside of the US design the cars for those markets is simply good economics and business.

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I agree, and part of that reason is the fact that people outside the US have more experience with what those populations value in a vehicle.

braindrain said:

While I am glad that your family has had good luck with them that means little in the grand scheme of things.

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Of course it doesn't, I'm not even quite sure why I mentioned it. But I am surprised at the disparity between consumer reports in the USA, and those elsewhere. None of the European consumer reports deem Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche, or any of the Volkswagen brands unreliable (British Fords and Vauxhalls are another matter). Comparisons between European brands and US ones are not readily available in Europe simply because we do not buy American cars.

braindrain said:

As to the ZR1 several things about that. First things like ride and impression of build quality is very very subjective. For instance some folks like a very nice supple ride others prefer a more firm precise ride. The same goes with build quality.

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You may have a point - it may just be a matter of standards. But these evaluations are not made by jumping in and taking a quick ride around the block. Some of these road testers are very experienced professional people who have, of necessity, developed a level of objectivity. Build quality is not judged by the sound a door makes alone. Shut lines are inspected, fit and finish of appointments, the quality of switchgear and the materials used, whilst noise, vibration, and harshness, are all components of the final judgement.

Here is a synopsis of WhatCar's opinion on the Z1.

For: The iconic American muscle car has presence in spaces, plus a great big V8 engine. It comes with a decent amount of luxury kit as standard, and is better to drive than the cheaper models.

Against: The ZO6 still falls some way short of the best performance cars in most dynamic areas. Build quality is just as disappointing, and it’ll cost you a bomb to buy and run.

Rating: 1 star out of 5

One of the better versions of the Corvette, but countless other performance cars give you more ability for similar money.

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Chevrolet Corvette 6 2 V8 Zr1 2dr Review | What Car?

I think a salient point here is that the Z1 Corvette costs over 120,000 Pounds in the UK - more than a hand built Aston Martin DB9, and you can buy two Jaguar F-Types, with much better finish and build quality, and have some cash left over for that money. So you see, it is a matter of horses for courses, much the same thing which militates against European cars in the US, does so against the more expensive US cars in Europe.

braindrain said:

I never once said that those who buy cars such as BMWs or MBs do so with zero regard for quality. It does play a part just like perceived quality which is often not actual quality. But status and exclusivity play at least as big a part if not more with many of those targeted consumers. If quality was the deciding factor than they would be buying Toyotas or Hondas or even Buicks over BMWs and MB but those are not even people in the same market. There are many wealthy customers out there who would not buy an American made car no matter what because it simply does not carry the same prestige that pulling up in a M5 does.

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LOL, fair comment, but I think we will be arguing this all year if we persist in imposing our respective trans-Atlantic views upon each other. Much depends upon how one defines quality, and anyone who considers a Toyota the equivalent of a Mercedes Benz in that respect, is not going to be swayed by anything I might write. Peace!

Leo said:

If you implying that I am telling untruths, then I must take exception. Otherwise, I apologise for expressing myself inefficiently.



I agree, and part of that reason is the fact that people outside the US have more experience with what those populations value in a vehicle.



Of course it doesn't, I'm not even quite sure why I mentioned it. But I am surprised at the disparity between consumer reports in the USA, and those elsewhere. None of the European consumer reports deem Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche, or any of the Volkswagen brands unreliable (British Fords and Vauxhalls are another matter). Comparisons between European brands and US ones are not readily available in Europe simply because we do not buy American cars.



You may have a point - it may just be a matter of standards. But these evaluations are not made by jumping in and taking a quick ride around the block. Some of these road testers are very experienced professional people who have, of necessity, developed a level of objectivity. Build quality is not judged by the sound a door makes alone. Shut lines are inspected, fit and finish of appointments, the quality of switchgear and the materials used, whilst noise, vibration, and harshness, are all components of the final judgement.


I think a salient point here is that the Z1 Corvette costs over 120,000 Pounds in the UK - more than a hand built Aston Martin DB9, and you can buy two Jaguar F-Types, with much better finish and build quality, and have some cash left over for that money. So you see, it is a matter of horses for courses, much the same thing which militates against European cars in the US, does so against the more expensive US cars in Europe.



LOL, fair comment, but I think we will be arguing this all year if we persist in imposing our respective trans-Atlantic views upon each other. Much depends upon how one defines quality, and anyone who considers a Toyota the equivalent of a Mercedes Benz in that respect, is not going to be swayed by anything I might write. Peace!

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First of all. Let me say my intent was never meant to imply that you were lying at all. Probably just a misinterpretation because if you read the part of your post that says "LOL, and "We could do it if we wanted to - but we are happy to eschew an enormous world-wide market, so we will continue producing mediocre, gas-guzzling and cumbersome vehicles" I and many other that would read that it implies that you think US car companies couldn't do it. Not lying at all just a different opinion.

It is not that BMWs and MB are not reliable cars just that they are not as reliable cars as some other brands. The fact is that outside of a few lemons that get made by every manufacturer pretty much all modern cars have very good reliability. And to be fair some of that is due to the more complicated nature of those cars. The more systems and accessories that a car has the more there is to break. A fact of life. If your car doesn't have AC than your AC will never break.

Here in the US the DB9 costs about 80000 more but either way the ZR1 also has 638 horsepower compared to 456 of the AM, It has a top speed of 205 vs 186 (which if you know much about what it takes to go fast that number is a ton of difference), and pretty much embarrasses the DB9 on the track. So While yes the DB9 does have better overall finish and luxury items the Vette destroys it in all performance categories. So how can you say one is better than the other. It all depends on what you are looking for. I am not saying one is better than the other just different cars.

I agree that a Toyota is not the equal of a MB with that said if you are looking for the most reliable you are not buying from Europe. It is all what you are looking for. And the majority of the US market while they would love to have a car with all the features and performance of a BMW they simply are not willing to pay that much. The US car companies know this and they tailor the cars to what the customer is willing to pay.

It really comes down to the fact that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Ford could very easily build a car that is identical to a BMW but with it would come the BMW price. Most Americans are just not willing to pay that much. The same goes for the Vette. Chevy could very easily increase the fit and finish of the the car but then they would either have to drastically reduce its performance or double its price. And lets be realistic no one is buying a Chevy that costs 200000. Why would you when you could buy a Lambo and all the status that comes with it. Even if the two cars were exactly the same in every meaningful way the Lambo or Ferrari still has status edge. Mainly because of how rare they are.
It has nothing to do with the quality of engineers that work at either company and Chevy proves that by dominating in the major racing venues they compete in. Go look up the track record of the C5R or C6R sometime.

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