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Deportation Question.

Could you deport them personally or not?

  • Total voters
    55
SouthernDemocrat said:
No its not that I don't like the answer, its just that I think the reality of this is far messier than a lot of people are willing to accept.
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Anti-immigrant advocates are unaware of, or choose to ignore, the fact that it is virtually impossible for a poor person to immigrate to the USA legally. It costs tens of thousands of dollars and several years of waiting while the potential immigrant's children go hungry and live with the threat of violence.
 
Peter King said:
There is no comparison to the crime of murder or rape and being an illegal alien who has committed no crime outside of the way that he entered the country. If he pays his taxes, is a good and upstanding person and a positive influence in community then I see no reason to punish the children in such a horrendous manner. Fine him if you want, but imprisoning him? Cost the US society more money and further compromising the prison system by jailing a totally non violent person, that is just insane. Let him pay money as a fine but jailing him is just too extreme and not right.
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That's just plain silly. Fine him and let him go on being here illegally? We're not talking about jailing him, we're talking about deporting him. The point wasn't to equate crimes with one another but to point out to those not catching a clue, that families of criminals suffer when we enforce the law, ANY law. That's not an excuse or a mitigating circumstance.
 
Peter King said:
There is no comparison to the crime of murder or rape and being an illegal alien who has committed no crime outside of the way that he entered the country. If he pays his taxes, is a good and upstanding person and a positive influence in community then I see no reason to punish the children in such a horrendous manner. Fine him if you want, but imprisoning him? Cost the US society more money and further compromising the prison system by jailing a totally non violent person, that is just insane. Let him pay money as a fine but jailing him is just too extreme and not right.
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Firstly, I explained my comparison in a subsequent post - accept it or not.

Secondly, I said nothing about imposing penalties that aren't already on the books - not once did I suggest they should be imprisoned.

Finally, I could equate it with squatters. If a group of people or a family take over an unoccupied property and live there for a certain period of time, you wouldn't want them to be removed for trespassing? But they've lived there a long time and gained friends and babies were born etc. etc. Don't they get to keep the place on emotional grounds?
 
Hard Truth said:
Anti-immigrant advocates are unaware of, or choose to ignore, the fact that it is virtually impossible for a poor person to immigrate to the USA legally. It costs tens of thousands of dollars and several years of waiting while the potential immigrant's children go hungry and live with the threat of violence.
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"Anti-immigrant"? You invalidate your argument with this lie.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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Yes.

The US puts people in prison for a lot less

If you want immigration laws to mean anything......

and if you want to close the open door
 
Hard Truth said:
Anti-immigrant advocates are unaware of, or choose to ignore, the fact that it is virtually impossible for a poor person to immigrate to the USA legally. It costs tens of thousands of dollars and several years of waiting while the potential immigrant's children go hungry and live with the threat of violence.
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Another false claim. Those who oppose illegal aliens are not "anti-immigrant advocates" - that's a crock tossed up by those who advocate amnesty for criminals. Most people on the right fully support legal immigration where it improves the economy and social well being of the country.

If it takes too long and costs too much, that's readily fixable without abandoning the rule of law.
 
clownboy said:
"Anti-immigrant"? You invalidate your argument with this lie.
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Are you saying that you favor significantly expanding the quotas for legal immigration so that nearly any person, even a poor person, with a clean criminal record can come to the USA with only a reasonable amount of effort and cost required?
 
CanadaJohn said:
Another false claim. Those who oppose illegal aliens are not "anti-immigrant advocates" - that's a crock tossed up by those who advocate amnesty for criminals. Most people on the right fully support legal immigration where it improves the economy and social well being of the country.

If it takes too long and costs too much, that's readily fixable without abandoning the rule of law.
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I don't recall any signs saying "Make legal immigration easier" at anti-illegal alien rallies. I have never heard of a strong opponent of "illegal aliens" support expanding refugee status or taking any other measure that would make immigration easier and the process more fair and accessible for low-income people. Half of the strongest opponents of "illegal aliens" are bigoted against Hispanics, although most will lie about that.
 
Mycroft said:
In a heartbeat.

Let me pose one to you: Say a man, age 20, sexually assaults a woman, avoids getting caught, lives an exemplary life for 30 years...pillar of his community...3 kids, one still in high school, etc., and then, new evidence connects him to the crime. Should he be charged? Should he go to trial? If found guilty, should he be sentenced?
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What a stupid comparison. I think most people would agree that someone coming here illegally looking for work is not the same thing as a rapist.
 
Hard Truth said:
Are you saying that you favor significantly expanding the quotas for legal immigration so that nearly any person, even a poor person, with a clean criminal record can come to the USA with only a reasonable amount of effort and cost required?
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No, I'm not in favor of that, but then that wouldn't make me anti-immigrant. In fact I absolutely adore and support legal immigrants to this country. I've known many in the course of my life, married one.
 
Hard Truth said:
I don't recall any signs saying "Make legal immigration easier" at anti-illegal alien rallies. I have never heard of a strong opponent of "illegal aliens" support expanding refugee status or taking any other measure that would make immigration easier and the process more fair and accessible for low-income people. Half of the strongest opponents of "illegal aliens" are bigoted against Hispanics, although most will lie about that.
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But absolutely none of that would make a person anti-immigrant. I happen to think the quotas in place are more than fair and that we should restrict immigration to those who have something to offer as citizens.
 
Hard Truth said:
I don't recall any signs saying "Make legal immigration easier" at anti-illegal alien rallies. I have never heard of a strong opponent of "illegal aliens" support expanding refugee status or taking any other measure that would make immigration easier and the process more fair and accessible for low-income people. Half of the strongest opponents of "illegal aliens" are bigoted against Hispanics, although most will lie about that.
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Maybe you don't hear those things because they are two separate and distinct issues - immigration has nothing to do with illegal aliens. The left wants to conflate them in their never ending need to demonize the other side's motives. Didn't take long to get the racism charges out.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
What a stupid comparison. I think most people would agree that someone coming here illegally looking for work is not the same thing as a rapist.
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Once again, this isn't about equating the crimes. It does however use a very small part of the emotionalism against you that you have been using for the entire thread.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
What a stupid comparison. I think most people would agree that someone coming here illegally looking for work is not the same thing as a rapist.
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I didn't say "rapist". I said "sexual assault". Two different things.

Irregardless, your scenario and my scenario both involve criminal action. They both involve people breaking the law, getting caught years later and the question of whether they should bear the lawful consequences of their actions.

You know, I think a better course of action for you bleeding heart liberals/progressives/Democrats would be to push for a statute of limitations for illegally entering our country. Change the law to say that, if you come here illegally, manage to avoid getting caught for X number of years, then you automatically become a citizen. Then you wouldn't have to show yourself as not caring about the rule of law.
 
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SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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And your Tiny Violin scenario is PRECISELY WHY we have a problem and keep having it.
Putrid liberality.
Dozens of sympathy amnesties rewarding Criminals.

Someone sneaks across and then claims "reunite" or "tear apart" brutally separated family.
So parents sneak across.. kids sneak across.. then EVERY Extended family has a new 'right.
It's estimated 11 million will become 33 Million with their/YOUR new 'rights'.

And your scenario is to the LEFT side of fair
MOST immigrants haven't lived here that long and don't have 9 and 13 yr old kids...
Whose Education and Healthcare WE have been paying for since they work Off the books.
And most have More than Two kids.
Many send their illegal money back across the border.

Virtually ALL are BIG Net losers for the economy, in that even on the books, they pay NO net Federal Income tax.
Even the famous "47%" of legals pay no net Federal Income taxes save for FICA and are net losers.

So how good is it for the economy if they make 25K OFF the books and send 1/3 back to Mexico/etc.
A Family of 4-7 OFF the books ILLEGALS probably costs the economy/US-Taxpayers $100,000 a Year in healthcare, edu, roads, prisons, police, border patrol, etc.
Even ON the books, Big Net losers.

Your whole BS sympathetic scenario is unfair.
What about what happened THIS yr.. people sending their kids in first.. then we get the 'reunite'/orphan whining.
Most are more recent, many came across JUST to have kids.
WHAT ABOUT Them?
ANSWER that.
Why DISINGENUOUSLY present only your 15-yr-here Scenario?

Deport?
No.
E-verify.
NO USA citizenship, NO JOBS. Period. (employER sanctions)
You come across illegally you you Cannot get a job and can NEVER be made Legal.
PERIOD.
We don't need Border Patrol Nor 'deport'.
just Guaranteed Nothing to [illegally] come for.
Game over.

You just perpetuate the rolling amnesty/rewarding Illegals problem.
You reward criminality merely because they have stayed hidden longer.
 
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Mycroft said:
I didn't say "rapist". I said "sexual assault". Two different things.

Irregardless, your scenario and my scenario both involve criminal action. They both involve people breaking the law, getting caught years later and the question of whether they should bear the lawful consequences of their actions.
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I don't want to misdirect the OP discussion, but it reminds me of the Bill Cosby kerfuffle now - Bill Cosby has been such a great entertainer, wonderful family sitcom for years, great promoter of family values in the black community, etc. - so what if maybe he raped a dozen or two women decades ago, he's been a good egg all these years, let's let him slide.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I don't want to misdirect the OP discussion, but it reminds me of the Bill Cosby kerfuffle now - Bill Cosby has been such a great entertainer, wonderful family sitcom for years, great promoter of family values in the black community, etc. - so what if maybe he raped a dozen or two women decades ago, he's been a good egg all these years, let's let him slide.
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I didn't have him in mind when I came up with my scenario. I was looking more toward a crime with no statute of limitations. But his situation DOES fit my scenario.

Just like with the illegal alien, I'd throw the book at him in a heartbeat, as well.
 
clownboy said:
That's just plain silly. Fine him and let him go on being here illegally? We're not talking about jailing him, we're talking about deporting him. The point wasn't to equate crimes with one another but to point out to those not catching a clue, that families of criminals suffer when we enforce the law, ANY law. That's not an excuse or a mitigating circumstance.
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Well, Apacherat was saying that they should be jailed and then deported.

Yes, fine him and allow him to live here legally, because why would you punish innocent children by deporting their parents or forcing them to live in a country in which they were not born and that is totally alien to them.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Firstly, I explained my comparison in a subsequent post - accept it or not.

Secondly, I said nothing about imposing penalties that aren't already on the books - not once did I suggest they should be imprisoned.

Finally, I could equate it with squatters. If a group of people or a family take over an unoccupied property and live there for a certain period of time, you wouldn't want them to be removed for trespassing? But they've lived there a long time and gained friends and babies were born etc. etc. Don't they get to keep the place on emotional grounds?
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Sorry, I should have written this in 2 responses, one for apacherat who said jail them and one to you for comparing their illegal entry to justice for people who have been murdered/raped.

But your squatting comparison also does not really fly in this case because people born inside the United States are natural born Americans. So their children are natural born citizens (or at least that is what the 14th amendment states and as far as I have read so far this has never been ruled on by the supreme court when illegal aliens are involved, so as for now the 14th amendment is in play here) of the United States.

When a child is born in a squatted home it does not legally give them rights to that house, but children who are born in the US are US citizens and they do have rights that come with that citizenship. And they get those rights on legal grounds.
 
Peter King said:
Well, Apacherat was saying that they should be jailed and then deported.

Yes, fine him and allow him to live here legally, because why would you punish innocent children by deporting their parents or forcing them to live in a country in which they were not born and that is totally alien to them.
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So then why jail ANY criminal who has children, no matter the crime? Why not just fine them all. For one it's a very unequal application of the law, for another deportation is NOT punishment.
 
I think I could deport them. I've had to wait till escrow closed till I could enroll my kids in a certain school district. School district was very strict about this.It was a better school district, one reason for us buying there in the first place. I've seen properties eminent domained in certain parts of Southern California, Santa Ana for one, to build more schools to serve the expanding, mostly illegal population. We have to take care of our own, and let other countries solve their own problems. Yea, I could deport them.
 
Peter King said:
Sorry, I should have written this in 2 responses, one for apacherat who said jail them and one to you for comparing their illegal entry to justice for people who have been murdered/raped.

But your squatting comparison also does not really fly in this case because people born inside the United States are natural born Americans. So their children are natural born citizens (or at least that is what the 14th amendment states and as far as I have read so far this has never been ruled on by the supreme court when illegal aliens are involved, so as for now the 14th amendment is in play here) of the United States.

When a child is born in a squatted home it does not legally give them rights to that house, but children who are born in the US are US citizens and they do have rights that come with that citizenship. And they get those rights on legal grounds.
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Nope, you're missing that these are minor children. Their rights are in trust.
 
Mycroft said:
I didn't say "rapist". I said "sexual assault". Two different things.

Irregardless, your scenario and my scenario both involve criminal action. They both involve people breaking the law, getting caught years later and the question of whether they should bear the lawful consequences of their actions.
Click to expand...

All crimes are not the same. Judges routinely (unless there are those stupid mandatory minimums in play) use discretion in sentencing depending on the circumstances surrounding the crime.

You know, I think a better course of action for you bleeding heart liberals/progressives/Democrats would be to push for a statute of limitations for illegally entering our country. Change the law to say that, if you come here illegally, manage to avoid getting caught for X number of years, then you automatically become a citizen. Then you wouldn't have to show yourself as not caring about the rule of law.
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I think the best course of action is to do a lot better job policing the borders and prosecuting the hell out of people that employ illegal immigrants. However, the topic of this poll was not those coming here now, but rather those that have been here for a long time and have a lot of family ties here now - particularly if they have children.
 
clownboy said:
Once again, this isn't about equating the crimes. It does however use a very small part of the emotionalism against you that you have been using for the entire thread.
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As I have pointed out in an earlier post, all crimes are not equal, and our justice system recognizes that. Judges routinely consider the circumstances surrounding a crime when determining the penalties / sentence for that crime. The reason why I bring up the emotional aspects of this is that we are not robots, thus as humans the emotional aspects comes into play. The question is not whether the law says they can be deported, the question is whether if you had to do the dirty work and you have to make the decisions, could you do it. That by definition is a question of conscience. There is no right or wrong answers other than lame attempts at rationalizing it.
 
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I think we should start deporting the anti-immigrant crowd. Let them get a taste of why illegal immigration exists so, maybe, they can stop sounding like such entitled dumb****s when discussing illegal immigration.
 
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