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Deportation Question.

Could you deport them personally or not?

  • Total voters
    55
SouthernDemocrat said:
I know for a fact that China won't.
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Well then those children go into the system here, fine. Illegals from China represent less than 1% of the problem. I know for a fact Mexico and the South American nations will and do. That right there is the vast majority of the illegals.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
How are they going to get right with the law once they came here illegally? Its something of a Catch-22 at that point.
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It's not a catch 22, you just don't like the answer.

You get right by sneaking back to your own country, and, if you want to return to the US, fill out the paperwork, send it in, and wait till we call you.
 
I could deport them. Though I'd probably offer to let them stay if they had no criminal record other than entering illegally and were willing to pay their 15 years of back taxes.
 
clownboy said:
Well then those children go into the system here, fine. Illegals from China represent less than 1% of the problem. I know for a fact Mexico and the South American nations will and do. That right there is the vast majority of the illegals.
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Yeah sure, I would like to see you send parents back to China and kids into an orphanage here. Big talk but I doubt you could do it.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I don't think theft and coming here illegally looking for work is in anyway morally comparable. As to why the kids are relevant, its because while roughly 1 in 30 of us or so are sociopaths, the rest of us have a conscience and thus splitting families up or tearing kids away from all their friends and the only life they have ever known simply because their parents came here illegally decades before, is something that most people could not do if they had to do it themselves.

I have thought lately about why president's as ideologically far apart as Obama, Bush Sr, and Reagan all basically granted amnesty to immigrants that formed families here, and I think its because regardless of one's political beliefs most of us have a conscience and have to be able to sleep at night, and when these things are on you personally, its hard to rationalize breaking up families.
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We don't uphold laws based on whether the accused have kids or not. And I think the entire point of your argument is that you think everyone who is here illegally hasn't done anything wrong. That's your choice and I have a different opinion but still respect yours. But please don't try to make it appear as it's something other than that.
 
jimbo said:
It's not a catch 22, you just don't like the answer.

You get right by sneaking back to your own country, and, if you want to return to the US, fill out the paperwork, send it in, and wait till we call you.
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No its not that I don't like the answer, its just that I think the reality of this is far messier than a lot of people are willing to accept.
 
pbrauer said:
As long as they are law abiding citizenry (not in the legal sense) I could not deport them.
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pb, that's two things they aren't. Law abiding and citizenry.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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I would arrest you for kidnapping them ;)
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
How are they going to get right with the law once they came here illegally? Its something of a Catch-22 at that point.
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Their options are here - Green Card Processes & Procedures | USCIS

It won't necessarily be a piece of cake but in 15 years it's damned well doable.

Frankly, I'm all for making the visa process easier. Part of the reason we have such a problem is that the process is a cluster**** but once we get that process smoothed out there shouldn't be any more excuses.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I don't think theft and coming here illegally looking for work is in anyway morally comparable. As to why the kids are relevant, its because while roughly 1 in 30 of us or so are sociopaths, the rest of us have a conscience and thus splitting families up or tearing kids away from all their friends and the only life they have ever known simply because their parents came here illegally decades before, is something that most people could not do if they had to do it themselves.
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That happens on a daily basis around the US. Someone who has avoided capture and arrest for their crimes is discovered and their families almost always suffer for it too. Families are separated and the kids often lose their current way of life. That's all on those selfish criminals, entirely. The same is true of illegals. Your search to provide them with a sob story that is sufficient to make enough hearts bleed is noted.

SouthernDemocrat said:
I have thought lately about why president's as ideologically far apart as Obama, Bush Sr, and Reagan all basically granted amnesty to immigrants that formed families here, and I think its because regardless of one's political beliefs most of us have a conscience and have to be able to sleep at night, and when these things are on you personally, its hard to rationalize breaking up families.
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Reagan did no such thing, the congress granted amnesty to illegal aliens, not immigrants.
 
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tres borrachos said:
We don't uphold laws based on whether the accused have kids or not. And I think the entire point of your argument is that you think everyone who is here illegally hasn't done anything wrong. That's your choice and I have a different opinion but still respect yours. But please don't try to make it appear as it's something other than that.
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I never argued they haven't done anything wrong. I am saying that its messy, a lot messier than a lot of people will acknowledge. Moreover, we actually do delay prison sentences in some cases for parents with kids, particularly single parents with kids, depending on the crime.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Yeah sure, I would like to see you send parents back to China and kids into an orphanage here. Big talk but I doubt you could do it.
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I could, and easily. I'd feel for the kids that their parents were such ****birds, but I feel for all kids whose parents are selfish ****birds.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
No its not that I don't like the answer, its just that I think the reality of this is far messier than a lot of people are willing to accept.
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Every law is messy when it is enforced.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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I'm getting some mixed messages from your description. If they've only been here a couple of years, how is it that the kids are 9 and 13 have been here their whole lives? If Mom and Dad speak Spanish at home, how is it that the kiddos don't speak their parent's language? Plus, there are some unanswered questions: How are the parents supporting themselves and their kiddos? Are they working, paying taxes, bringing home paychecks, or are they dependent on charity?

As a former teacher who had a lot of illegals in my classes, I wouldn't want to have deported kids who have learned the language, who have been here most of their lives, who want to stay in the US and continue their schooling. I've had some students, however, who had no interest in learning English, didn't want to be in school, and would rather have returned to their native land. I wouldn't want to be the one to deport the parents either, if they're working and paying their own way.

But, if the kiddos would rather have gone back home, if the parents weren't contributing to their new country, then I'd have deported them in a heartbeat if the law would have allowed it.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for some of them) I didn't have that authority anyway.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I'm getting some mixed messages from your description. If they've only been here a couple of years, how is it that the kids are 9 and 13 have been here their whole lives? If Mom and Dad speak Spanish at home, how is it that the kiddos don't speak their parent's language? Plus, there are some unanswered questions: How are the parents supporting themselves and their kiddos? Are they working, paying taxes, bringing home paychecks, or are they dependent on charity?

As a former teacher who had a lot of illegals in my classes, I wouldn't want to have deported kids who have learned the language, who have been here most of their lives, who want to stay in the US and continue their schooling. I've had some students, however, who had no interest in learning English, didn't want to be in school, and would rather have returned to their native land. I wouldn't want to be the one to deport the parents either, if they're working and paying their own way.

But, if the kiddos would rather have gone back home, if the parents weren't contributing to their new country, then I'd have deported them in a heartbeat if the law would have allowed it.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for some of them) I didn't have that authority anyway.
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I am saying the parents have lived and worked here illegally for 15 years (most likely on duplicate Social Security numbers) so they are not charity cases, but just the same they are not living and working here legally. Many of the the Hispanic kids at my kids schools speak little Spanish despite the fact their parents speak Spanish, I think that's all a question of whether the parents speak Spanish in the home or not.

As a side note, you summed up my position on the issue perfectly.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Because those are two laws that don't have statutes of limitations, similar to illegal entry into a country. If I'd mentioned some other law that has a statute of limitations, then a certain period of time having passed would prohibit prosecution of the crime.

I'm pretty much a law and order conservative who believes that laws should be enforced and penalties should be enforced when convicted. In a democracy, if we collectively don't like those laws or penalties, we can work to have our political representatives change them - that happens all the time - drug laws are an example. Perhaps what should be done is to have illegal entry laws have a statute of limitation where the crime lapses after a certain period, not requiring amnesty which is a dirty word, and then allowing individuals to enter the system legally through certain processes that are outlined in legislation.
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The problem with the statute of limitations thingy is if you did not come here legally, and you woke up here this morning, the clock starts ticking this afternoon.

If you, say, are a a thief, and you started stealing 20 years ago, and steal tday, the statute of limitations on the old thefts apply, but not today's theft.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I am saying the parents have lived and worked here illegally for 15 years (most likely on duplicate Social Security numbers) so they are not charity cases, but just the same they are not living and working here legally. Many of the the Hispanic kids at my kids schools speak little Spanish despite the fact their parents speak Spanish, I think that's all a question of whether the parents speak Spanish in the home or not.

As a side note, you summed up my position on the issue perfectly.
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If they've been working and living in this country that long, and have produced two children who are natural born US citizens as per the 14th. Amendment, then they should be able to go back to the US consulate in Mexico and be granted green cards to come here legally and no longer fear deportation.

IMO, that is.

Oh, why have to go to the consulate in Mexico? So as not to spark a flood of illegals such as we saw back in the '80s, that's why.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I don't think theft and coming here illegally looking for work is in anyway morally comparable. As to why the kids are relevant, its because while roughly 1 in 30 of us or so are sociopaths, the rest of us have a conscience and thus splitting families up or tearing kids away from all their friends and the only life they have ever known simply because their parents came here illegally decades before, is something that most people could not do if they had to do it themselves.

I have thought lately about why president's as ideologically far apart as Obama, Bush Sr, and Reagan all basically granted amnesty to immigrants that formed families here, and I think its because regardless of one's political beliefs most of us have a conscience and have to be able to sleep at night, and when these things are on you personally, its hard to rationalize breaking up families.
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Are you implying that those us who believe in the rule of law are sociopaths and don't have a conscience?

I typically don't take internet banter personally, but this post I do.
 
jimbo said:
Are you implying that those us who believe in the rule of law are sociopaths and don't have a conscience?

I typically don't take internet banter personally, but this post I do.
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No I am saying that these things are messy and a lot of people talk big on them could not do it themselves depending on the circumstances. As I said earlier, I am all for stronger borders and frankly I think we have too many people in this country as it is (not to mention the world), but I don't think I could rip a family with kids up that had been here working and living for more than a decade and despite the big talk on here, I doubt many other people could either. The point being I think you probably have a conscience and that's why it would be hard.
 
jimbo said:
The problem with the statute of limitations thingy is if you did not come here legally, and you woke up here this morning, the clock starts ticking this afternoon.

If you, say, are a a thief, and you started stealing 20 years ago, and steal tday, the statute of limitations on the old thefts apply, but not today's theft.
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That's an excellent point - illegal entry into the country and being illegally in the country are two separate crimes - the illegal entry can have a statute of limitations unless the person is constantly entering and exiting the country - but being illegally in the country is a crime that is continuously committed each day/hour/minute you remain.
 
jimbo said:
Are you implying that those us who believe in the rule of law are sociopaths and don't have a conscience?
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I'll speak for him: Yes. However the sociopathic tendencies most likely come from the fact that you probably don't actually know an illegal immigrant.

SouthernDemocrat said:
It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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Hell no. I know more illegal immigrants than I could count. They're perfectly wonderful people.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
No I am saying that these things are messy and a lot of people talk big on them could not do it themselves depending on the circumstances. As I said earlier, I am all for stronger borders and frankly I think we have too many people in this country as it is (not to mention the world), but I don't think I could rip a family with kids up that had been here working and living for more than a decade and despite the big talk on here, I doubt many other people could either. The point being I think you probably have a conscience and that's why it would be hard.
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Strong borders are a farce. Unless you're sucker for a welfare state, there's no reason that migrants should face any barriers (outside of having a good moral standing) in coming to the United States.
 
brothern said:
I'll speak for him: Yes. However the sociopathic tendencies most likely come from the fact that you probably don't actually know an illegal immigrant.


Hell no. I know more illegal immigrants than I could count. They're perfectly wonderful people.
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I do know some illegals. I don't associate with or hire them because I don't associate with or hire criminals.

My belief in the rule of law in no way implys that I have no conscience.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
A man and his wife sneak across the border illegally from Mexico. After they live here for a couple of years they have a couple of kids. The kids are now age 9 and 13 and have lived here their whole lives. They don't speak much Spanish. They are enrolled in school and like all kids have friends and play sports and so on. The parents however have never obtained legal status despite the fact they have lived and worked here for 15 years.

It's entirely up to you, could you personally walk into their home, arrest the parents in front of their kids, bring them up before an immigration hearing where you sit as judge, and then deport them back to Mexico?
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In a heartbeat.

Let me pose one to you: Say a man, age 20, sexually assaults a woman, avoids getting caught, lives an exemplary life for 30 years...pillar of his community...3 kids, one still in high school, etc., and then, new evidence connects him to the crime. Should he be charged? Should he go to trial? If found guilty, should he be sentenced?
 
CanadaJohn said:
Personally, I could. There are lots of crimes committed in our society that aren't solved until years or decades later. We don't tell a murderer his crime doesn't matter because he now has a wife and kids. We don't tell a rapist that all is cool because he now has a good job and is caring for his elderly parents.

These attempts to ignore the laws of the land on the basis of emotional blackmail are really contemptible in my view.
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There is no comparison to the crime of murder or rape and being an illegal alien who has committed no crime outside of the way that he entered the country. If he pays his taxes, is a good and upstanding person and a positive influence in community then I see no reason to punish the children in such a horrendous manner. Fine him if you want, but imprisoning him? Cost the US society more money and further compromising the prison system by jailing a totally non violent person, that is just insane. Let him pay money as a fine but jailing him is just too extreme and not right.
 
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