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Deportation Question.

Could you deport them personally or not?

  • Total voters
    55
clownboy said:
Actually yes. Depends on parentage. If one parent is an American citizen, then the child should be eligible for full citizenship when they reach majority age. If both parents are not, then no. Just like everywhere else in the world.
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Not everywhere else, but some places. My son grew up in a very multicultural area (Surrey, BC) and he and a group of friends were headed south to a rock concert in Seattle. One of the group was travelling on a Lebanese passport but had never been in Lebanon. He was born in Abu Dhabi with a Lebanese father which made him Lebanese in Muslim culture. After hours trying to sort this all out the whole group was sent back to Canada.
 
Misterveritis said:
Yes, I want to abandon the principle that someone born to illegal aliens is a US citizen. If the parents had no right to be here then the child has no right to citizenship. Boot 'em.
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What if the 'aliens' aren't illegal?
 
1750Texan said:
For the love of God, please tell me you don't think a person is arrested and sent to jail/prison for being in the country without authorization...
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If I were to walk through your back door and take up residence in your home without your permission what would you do ?

Kick my ass and thrown me out or call 911 and have me arrested, convicted in court and sent to prison ?

Or would you just award me amnesty and allow me to move into your daughter's bedroom ? :eek:
 
You got it wrong, no reason for a judge.

Just deport, since they obviously did not grow up in USA as CITIZENS.
 
Misterveritis said:
Yes, I want to abandon the principle that someone born to illegal aliens is a US citizen. If the parents had no right to be here then the child has no right to citizenship. Boot 'em.
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As the 14th says. to be a citizen you must.................


Born in USA AND AND AND AND a subject (citizen) of the USA...................
 
274ina said:
As the 14th says. to be a citizen you must.................


Born in USA AND AND AND AND a subject (citizen) of the USA...................
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Which, as I mentioned, means the amendment need not be repealed. But it does need to be correctly interpreted.
 
Misterveritis said:
Explain further. Do you mean resident aliens? If they are not Americans then the child is not either.
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Alright. So the parents need to be American citizens before a child can be?
 
Grand Mal said:
Alright. So the parents need to be American citizens before a child can be?
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This is a great starting point. Will there be exceptions? Maybe. But dropping a kind on American soil should not be sufficient for citizenship.
 
Misterveritis said:
This is a great starting point. Will there be exceptions? Maybe. But dropping a kind on American soil should not be sufficient for citizenship.
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Nice. I'm guessing you think the US would be better without immigrants.
 
APACHERAT said:
If I were to walk through your back door and take up residence in your home without your permission what would you do ?

Kick my ass and thrown me out or call 911 and have me arrested, convicted in court and sent to prison ?

Or would you just award me amnesty and allow me to move into your daughter's bedroom ? :eek:
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that was not my question. Your post seem to suggest that you believed that aliens are arrested and sent to prison.
 
radcen said:
Really?

The part regarding birth rite citizenship. Maybe it's just me, but I thought it was obvious considering the context of the thread and the wording of my post.

The 21st repealed the 18th in it's entirety. You ask the question as if it would be impossible to repeal/nullify a portion of another amendment. What makes you think this couldn't be done? What makes you think that, once enacted, an amendment is unalterable and carved in stone?
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I am asking you to strike the section of the 14th that allows birth right citizenship. What section or provision of the 14th grants that?
 
SlevinKelevra said:
it always seemed to me the easiest and cheapest way to solve the issue is to make the economic climate unfavorable to attract undocumented workers.

make hiring them a capital crime?
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Prevent them from accessing any public services except for emergencies. As in, no education, no driving, no form of welfare. Im loathe to punish employers for hiring people. Punish the people who snuck in, not the people who are just trying to run a business.
 
radcen said:
It wouldn't require repealing the entire amendment. All they need to do is pass another amendment repealing that one specific part.

I've said it before, but I'll repeat it: I would not eliminate it completely. I would modify it to be that one must be born here AND have at least one biological parent already a citizen.
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I dont think where you are born should have anything to do with it. If you are born to an american citizen, you are an american citizen. And vice versa, simply being born on american soil should have nothing to do with citizenship.
 
jonny5 said:
I dont think where you are born should have anything to do with it. If you are born to an american citizen, you are an american citizen. And vice versa, simply being born on american soil should have nothing to do with citizenship.
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That would be an acceptable alternative.
 
1750Texan said:
that was not my question. Your post seem to suggest that you believed that aliens are arrested and sent to prison.
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Bypassing a port of entry and illegally entering the country is a criminal offense that carry's a fine and six month sentence for the first offense. But only a few number ever pay the fine and spend any time behind bars. Basically we don't enforce the laws that are on the books. As long as the government refuses to enforce our laws they will keep coming.
 
Ontologuy said:
It is important to understand how U.S. law works with respect to arrests and deportation of parents with minor children.

If both parents are arrested at once or the only parent the child has in America is arrested, the children go to child protective services (CPS).

CPS works with the parents to determine if the children have relatives or parental preferred people in the U.S. with whom they can stay in the interim, and that's where they're placed pending deportation. Otherwise they are placed in temporary foster care pending deportation.

When deportation occurs, the parents get to choose if they want their children to go with them.

If they choose to have their children go with them in deportation, and the children are not U.S. citizens, the children go with them.

If they choose to have their children go with them in deportation, and the children are U.S. citizens, then CPS determines if the environment to which they are going is safe-acceptable, and, if it is, then the children either go with them during deportation or they are sent to their parents once their parents are established back in their country of citizenship, but, if it's determined that the environment is unsafe-unacceptable, then the children are placed in more permanent foster care while the parents are deported and a period of time passes for the parents to get established in a safe-acceptable environment.

If the parents choose not to have their children go with them in deportation, then the children are placed in foster care by CPS. If the children are not U.S. citizens, then their country of citizenship may call to have them brought to the country later, or the parents may call for the children. If the children are U.S. citizens, then an attempt is made to find permanent homes for them here in America. If the parents don't call for them within a specified amount of time, then they are considered abandoned, and may be adopted here in the U.S.

It's important to remember that the parents brought any family-member hardships upon themselves; it's not the fault of any branch of the U.S. government -- it's solely the fault of the parents who knew this would rightly happen if they got caught committing their crimes.

The primary reason there are thousands of children separated from their parents who were deported is because the parents either chose to leave their kids here either temporarily or permanently, again, for which they and they alone are at fault.

The secondary reason there are thousands of children separated from their parents who were deported is because the parents couldn't find a safe-acceptable place from CPS's perspective to allow U.S. citizen children to go with their parents.

This is all very, very sad.

It is important, however, to understand that the sadness of it is no excuse of the law. The parents violated many U.S. laws, some of which are felonies, in stealing American citizens' jobs, classrooms, living-space, road-space, etc. .. including, clearly and obviously, child endangerment.

It is simply wrong to point the finger at U.S. law-enforcement and criminal justice agencies.

They must carry out their duties in a country that operates under rule of law.

If we were to make such undue exceptions because people suffer when criminals get caught, then we'd have to do it all the time to be fair .. and we'd have a dictatorship, not rule of law.

Again, the illegal aliens only have themselves to blame, and no one else.

Another reason why it's so important that we beef up border security so that trespassing can no longer occur, thereby eventually putting an end to this tragic aspect caused solely by the illegal aliens themselves.
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If the parents have moved from a place that is unsafe-unacceptable according to CPS, then it's their fault and they have no one else to blame but themselves. Moreover, having done so makes them guilty of child endangerment.

And, it's the parent's choice as long as the kiddos aren't American citizens. Otherwise, the wise and all powerful government gets to decide whether the place to which they're deporting the parents is safe enough to allow them to keep their children.

And, if the employers of illegals are powerful enough, have enough influence, to see to it that the illegals are able to come across the border and work for them, then the illegals are stealing from the rest of us.

I fail to see the logic to all of that.
 
Grand Mal said:
Not everywhere else, but some places. My son grew up in a very multicultural area (Surrey, BC) and he and a group of friends were headed south to a rock concert in Seattle. One of the group was travelling on a Lebanese passport but had never been in Lebanon. He was born in Abu Dhabi with a Lebanese father which made him Lebanese in Muslim culture. After hours trying to sort this all out the whole group was sent back to Canada.
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I thought that when I was typing it, but then I couldn't think of anywhere where it wasn't the case. Can you? I mean other than here in the US. AFAIK everywhere else, citizenship follow parentage.
 
Dittohead not! said:
If the parents have moved from a place that is unsafe-unacceptable according to CPS,
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Child Protective Services (CPS) is not involved at all when the illegal aliens trespass into America.


Dittohead not! said:
then it's their fault and they have no one else to blame but themselves.
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Your syllogisms reflect skewed thinking.

So the conclusions simply don't follow.


Dittohead not! said:
Moreover, having done so makes them guilty of child endangerment.
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:confused:

Again, pure illogical nonsense.

Reality remains that if the illegal alien parents have children, CPS gets involved during deportation activities to act in the best interest of the children.

CPS doesn't get involved unless they're aware that there's a situation that needs their attention, which occurs when they become aware that some illegal alien parents have children.

The choice to declare their children is that of the illegal alien parents, and many parents, once apprehended for their crimes, don't tell the authorities they have kids, simply making their "one phone call" to those who will look after their kids .. until they can again attempt to re-trespass into America.

Reality remains that CPS is more involved when they discover that there are U.S. citizen children than if there isn't U.S. citizen children.

Keep in mind, that the 22-23 illegal aliens in America represent a mere tiny fraction of the world's population in similar socioeconomic-geopolitical circumstances as these 22-23 million, and that overwhelming vast majority of people chose to stay in their country and work for change to improve their people's and their country's living conditions. That a tiny fraction chose to bring their children along with them to commit on-site crimes in America, though within the normal percentage of criminal activity, is, nonetheless, still child endangerment behavior.

It's the crimes they commit with their children here in America that is their child endangerment behavior, according to law.


Dittohead not! said:
And, it's the parent's choice as long as the kiddos aren't American citizens.
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False, and obviously so.

Please reread my post you quoted.

You will see that it's the parents' choice always as to whether or not the children will be left behind.

They have first choice always.

Quite a number of parents have chosen to leave their children behind, their illegal alien children they brought with them when they trespassed into America to steal other people's jobs.

But others chose to take their illegal alien children with them at deportation time.

If the children are American citizens, our laws require that CPS get involved in the interest of the children because the children are U.S. citizens.

The parents can still choose to leave those children behind, and, sadly again, many of them do .. sadly, that is, from the perspective of families being torn apart, the fault of which lies squarely with the illegal alien parents and no one else.

However, since the U.S. citizen children are underage, their illegal alien parents can choose to take them with them, but CPS must first determine if the conditions to which they're bringing the children are safe-acceptable.

"Safe-acceptable" does not mean that these conditions must be middle-class American economically, it means that the children will be fed, sheltered, and not in danger of abuse, according to the safe-acceptable norm in that country.

If you have a problem with this, remember that CPS involvement is simply the right thing to do, and that the illegal aliens brought this all on themselves; it's no one else's fault.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Otherwise, the wise and all powerful government gets to decide whether the place to which they're deporting the parents is safe enough to allow them to keep their children.
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Yeah .. typical libertarian "big bad government" meme. :roll:

Your anarchical extremism is noted .. and is irrelevant.


Dittohead not! said:
And, if the employers of illegals are powerful enough, have enough influence, to see to it that the illegals are able to come across the border and work for them, then the illegals are stealing from the rest of us.
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Your premise clauses are clearly and obviously false.

Thus your "then" conclusion is false.

Obviously very skewed reasoning that results in an illogical and thus erroneous conclusion.

The unscrupulous owners-managers in America who are the criminal accomplices in violating U.S. employment law do not have any power sufficient to "see to it that the illegals are able to come across the border".

All the power rests with our governing officials who derive their power by the consent of the governed.

All crime is based on a lure.

It the person takes the bait, then they are a criminal.

If you are a citizen in another country living there and someone here in America says, "hey, if you to trespass, forge false or steal another person's identity, violate U.S. employment law, violate U.S. customs requirements, commit other related frauds in the process of stealing American citizens' jobs, classrooms, living-space, road-space, etc., some of which are felonies, then they'll pay you here", do you not know that it is you who will be committing all those crimes, and the person luring you into America, who's likely another illegal alien, is telling you about how he's gotten away with these crimes so far ..

.. and if you take the bait and come here committing those crimes, just who do you think is going to take the brunt of the penalty when you're caught?

That's right, you, and rightly so.

That you were "encouraged" or "offered" to take an opportunity to commit multiple crimes is no excuse of the law.

The fault of their penalties incurred upon apprehension rests solely with those who voluntarily chose to commit the crimes, regardless of the lure.

The fact remains that the overwhelming vast majority of people in similar circumstances simply choose not to become multiple-count criminals and attempt to improve their lot at the expense of stealing from others.

That a very tiny fragment of people in that same situation do choose to take the lure and commit crimes in no way either excuses those crimes or indicates that the criminal actions shouldn't be simply that: criminal.

Thus when hardship befalls the illegal alien criminal's family, rightly the party to blame is the criminal, the illegal alien.
 
Ontologuy said:
Child Protective Services (CPS) is not involved at all when the illegal aliens trespass into America.



Your syllogisms reflect skewed thinking.

So the conclusions simply don't follow.



:confused:

Again, pure illogical nonsense.

Reality remains that if the illegal alien parents have children, CPS gets involved during deportation activities to act in the best interest of the children.

CPS doesn't get involved unless they're aware that there's a situation that needs their attention, which occurs when they become aware that some illegal alien parents have children.

The choice to declare their children is that of the illegal alien parents, and many parents, once apprehended for their crimes, don't tell the authorities they have kids, simply making their "one phone call" to those who will look after their kids .. until they can again attempt to re-trespass into America.

Reality remains that CPS is more involved when they discover that there are U.S. citizen children than if there isn't U.S. citizen children.
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Right, in the case when the INS is deporting the parents back to the place they came from, where children are not safe, and yet you're claiming that the parents aren't acting in the best interests of their yet unborn children by moving from that same place where children aren't safe.


Ontologuy said:
Keep in mind, that the 22-23 illegal aliens in America represent a mere tiny fraction of the world's population in similar socioeconomic-geopolitical circumstances as these 22-23 million, and that overwhelming vast majority of people chose to stay in their country and work for change to improve their people's and their country's living conditions. That a tiny fraction chose to bring their children along with them to commit on-site crimes in America, though within the normal percentage of criminal activity, is, nonetheless, still child endangerment behavior.

It's the crimes they commit with their children here in America that is their child endangerment behavior, according to law.



False, and obviously so.

Please reread my post you quoted.

You will see that it's the parents' choice always as to whether or not the children will be left behind.
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OK, here's the post I quoted:

The secondary reason there are thousands of children separated from their parents who were deported is because the parents couldn't find a safe-acceptable place from CPS's perspective to allow U.S. citizen children to go with their parents.
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Ontologuy;They have first choice [i said:
always[/i].
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Not so, according to your previous post.

Ontologuy said:
Quite a number of parents have chosen to leave their children behind, their illegal alien children they brought with them when they trespassed into America to steal other people's jobs.

But others chose to take their illegal alien children with them at deportation time.

If the children are American citizens, our laws require that CPS get involved in the interest of the children because the children are U.S. citizens.

The parents can still choose to leave those children behind, and, sadly again, many of them do .. sadly, that is, from the perspective of families being torn apart, the fault of which lies squarely with the illegal alien parents and no one else.

However, since the U.S. citizen children are underage, their illegal alien parents can choose to take them with them, but CPS must first determine if the conditions to which they're bringing the children are safe-acceptable.

"Safe-acceptable" does not mean that these conditions must be middle-class American economically, it means that the children will be fed, sheltered, and not in danger of abuse, according to the safe-acceptable norm in that country.

If you have a problem with this, remember that CPS involvement is simply the right thing to do, and that the illegal aliens brought this all on themselves; it's no one else's fault.
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Sure, the government looked the other way while they came here to work, and the all knowing and wise government knows best what to do with the children who were born in the interim between coming here and being sent back home. You have a lot more faith in government than I do.
 
Ontologuy said:
Yeah .. typical libertarian "big bad government" meme. :roll:

Your anarchical extremism is noted .. and is irrelevant.
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Anarchal extremism? Is that what you call limited government? No wonder the growth of the federal government is out of control.

Ontologuy said:
Your premise clauses are clearly and obviously false.

Thus your "then" conclusion is false.

Obviously very skewed reasoning that results in an illogical and thus erroneous conclusion.

The unscrupulous owners-managers in America who are the criminal accomplices in violating U.S. employment law do not have any power sufficient to "see to it that the illegals are able to come across the border".
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They've been successful at keeping the border open ever since the Eisenhower administration.

Ontologuy said:
All the power rests with our governing officials who derive their power by the consent of the governed.
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In an ideal world. In the real world, however, the consent of the powerful and wealthy is far and away more important.

Ontologuy said:
All crime is based on a lure.

It the person takes the bait, then they are a criminal.

If you are a citizen in another country living there and someone here in America says, "hey, if you to trespass, forge false or steal another person's identity, violate U.S. employment law, violate U.S. customs requirements, commit other related frauds in the process of stealing American citizens' jobs, classrooms, living-space, road-space, etc., some of which are felonies, then they'll pay you here", do you not know that it is you who will be committing all those crimes, and the person luring you into America, who's likely another illegal alien, is telling you about how he's gotten away with these crimes so far ..
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He's more likely to be an employer of illegal aliens.
Ontologuy said:
.. and if you take the bait and come here committing those crimes, just who do you think is going to take the brunt of the penalty when you're caught?
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Certainly not the wealthy and powerful nor their minions in Washington.

Ontologuy said:
That's right, you, and rightly so.

That you were "encouraged" or "offered" to take an opportunity to commit multiple crimes is no excuse of the law.

The fault of their penalties incurred upon apprehension rests solely with those who voluntarily chose to commit the crimes, regardless of the lure.

The fact remains that the overwhelming vast majority of people in similar circumstances simply choose not to become multiple-count criminals and attempt to improve their lot at the expense of stealing from others.

That a very tiny fragment of people in that same situation do choose to take the lure and commit crimes in no way either excuses those crimes or indicates that the criminal actions shouldn't be simply that: criminal.

Thus when hardship befalls the illegal alien criminal's family, rightly the party to blame is the criminal, the illegal alien.
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and the government that has been making it possible for them to come for the past six decades.
 
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