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Are Veterans Benefits and Immigration Reform mutually exclusive?

Starbuck

Starbuck

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I've seen a lot of images, such as the one above, floating around the internet over the past week. When I see this, I wonder if Veterans Benefits and Immigration Reform are completely opposed.

For example, if we allow ten illegal immigrants to gain permanent residency, do ten veterans lose their benefits?
 
That depends on whether you believe that our congress critters can "laser focus" on two separate issues at the same time. ;)

Some doubt that they can do much of anything, much less two anythings at once.
 
Starbuck said:

I've seen a lot of images, such as the one above, floating around the internet over the past week. When I see this, I wonder if Veterans Benefits and Immigration Reform are completely opposed.

For example, if we allow ten illegal immigrants to gain permanent residency, do ten veterans lose their benefits?
Click to expand...

No, they're not, it's a stupid statement. Not to mention that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) should be viewed as assets to be developed, but are instead depicted by the right as a drain on society.
 
StillBallin75 said:
No, they're not, it's a stupid statement. Not to mention that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) should be viewed as assets to be developed, but are instead depicted by the right as a drain on society.
Click to expand...

So long as we are paying US citizen folks not to support themselves and their dependents by working while, at the same time insisting that non-citizen, uneducated, low skilled and non-English speaking folks can do just that, we need more than just immigration reform.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
So long as we are paying US citizen folks not to support themselves and their dependents by working while, at the same time insisting that non-citizen, uneducated, low skilled and non-English speaking folks can do just that, we need more than just immigration reform.
Click to expand...

You do realize that Congress has ended unemployment benefits and that food stamps are being cut, correct? And that most families on welfare have at least one person that work and that you can't get unemployment forever, right? So how are we paying US citizens to not support themselves?
 
Starbuck said:

I've seen a lot of images, such as the one above, floating around the internet over the past week. When I see this, I wonder if Veterans Benefits and Immigration Reform are completely opposed.

For example, if we allow ten illegal immigrants to gain permanent residency, do ten veterans lose their benefits?
Click to expand...
The two issues are totally unrelated, of course.
But, people conflate unrelated issues all the time, so why not?
 
Mr. Invisible said:
You do realize that Congress has ended unemployment benefits and that food stamps are being cut, correct? And that most families on welfare have at least one person that work and that you can't get unemployment forever, right? So how are we paying US citizens to not support themselves?
Click to expand...

We have about 80 federal means tested "safety net" programs that are not (supposed to be) available to illegal aliens and fully expect them to make do without them by fully supporting themselves and their dependents by working (or relying entirely on private charity). Why is it suddenly cruel to expect that of US citizens as well?
 
Dittohead not! said:
The two issues are totally unrelated, of course.
But, people conflate unrelated issues all the time, so why not?
Click to expand...

They are related because both rely on congressional funding. No two federal programs are unrelated if they both rely on getting a share of discretionary federal funding. That is like saying that your rent and grocery bills are unrelated when both depend on you to pay them - would an increase in one not have any affect on the other if you must now borrow just to make ends meet?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
We have about 80 federal means tested "safety net" programs that are not (supposed to be) available to illegal aliens and fully expect them to make do without them by fully supporting themselves and their dependents by working (or relying entirely on private charity). Why is it suddenly cruel to expect that of US citizens as well?
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You say they are supporting themselves, but that ignores the fact that many of these people are working jobs, below minimum wage and are barely surviving, living multiple people to one room. Nearly a third of illegal immigrants live in poverty. (Undocumented Immigrants Aren’t Who You Think They Are | FiveThirtyEight)

So they may be getting by as you say, but in reality they are eking our and existence.
 
Mr. Invisible said:
You say they are supporting themselves, but that ignores the fact that many of these people are working jobs, below minimum wage and are barely surviving, living multiple people to one room. Nearly a third of illegal immigrants live in poverty. (Undocumented Immigrants Aren’t Who You Think They Are | FiveThirtyEight)

So they may be getting by as you say, but in reality they are eking our and existence.
Click to expand...

Yep and all without any nonsense of saying that there are jobs which are beneath them. I am so tired of hearing that illegal labor does not take "valuable" jobs while also hearing that we need ever more "safety net" spending. Are those now getting "safety net" assistance not supposed to have to eke out a living too? Why, exactly, are they not working the jobs "needed to be filled" but only by illegal labor?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep and all without any nonsense of saying that there are jobs which are beneath them. I am so tired of hearing that illegal labor does not take "valuable" jobs while also hearing that we need ever more "safety net" spending. Are those now getting "safety net" assistance not supposed to have to eke out a living too? Why, exactly, are they not working the jobs "needed to be filled" but only by illegal labor?
Click to expand...

So you think that people should literally just eke out an existence? I agree that people shouldn't think that jobs are beneath them, however the problem arises when you can pay people below minimum wage and the minimum wage itself isn't anything anyone can survive off of.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep and all without any nonsense of saying that there are jobs which are beneath them. I am so tired of hearing that illegal labor does not take "valuable" jobs while also hearing that we need ever more "safety net" spending. Are those now getting "safety net" assistance not supposed to have to eke out a living too? Why, exactly, are they not working the jobs "needed to be filled" but only by illegal labor?
Click to expand...

The assumption there is that immigration reform would cost enough to make veteran's benefits unaffordable. Whether it would cost anything at all depends on what sort of reform were to be passed.

The right sort of immigration reform could actually save money.
 
StillBallin75 said:
No, they're not, it's a stupid statement. Not to mention that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) should be viewed as assets to be developed, but are instead depicted by the right as a drain on society.
Click to expand...

Illegal immigrants are not a benefit to society in anyway except that they benefit the big corporatists you want people who wont demad labor protection or overtime pay. Just look at how much roofers and drywaller's main Los Angeles 30-40years ago and compare that to today. How many asset should we allow into the country anyway 300 million 400 million billion 30 million should we just develop Yellowstone National Park to house them.... Over a third of California's prison population of people in prison for violent felonies consist of those very assets that you think we need to develop

And it has nothing to do with the right wing just look at Oregon State were Democrats actually did well and they rejected drivers licenses is for illegal immigrants by an overwhelming margin
 
Mr. Invisible said:
So you think that people should literally just eke out an existence? I agree that people shouldn't think that jobs are beneath them, however the problem arises when you can pay people below minimum wage and the minimum wage itself isn't anything anyone can survive off of.
Click to expand...

That defies logic. Are illegal aliens rushing into the US (often at considerable expense) so that they may work hard just to not be able to survive?


Think, before you drink... even Kool-aid. ;)
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That defies logic. Are illegal aliens rushing into the US (often at considerable expense) so that they may work hard just to not be able to survive?


Think, before you drink... even Kool-aid. ;)
Click to expand...

You ever been to towns with a large population of illegals? There certainly not enjoying a lifestyle that we consider middle class in America in 2014

I can name us up a couple towns like this Fresno, Arvin, Los Banos, and certain neighborhoods in LA feel like you walk into a Third World country. No submiminum wage does not support an acceptable standard of living
 
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Dittohead not! said:
The assumption there is that immigration reform would cost enough to make veteran's benefits unaffordable. Whether it would cost anything at all depends on what sort of reform were to be passed.

The right sort of immigration reform could actually save money.
Click to expand...

Immigration enforcement costs money which is precisely why we now "lack resources" to enforce the current immigration law. My point was that congress critters will not focus on VA issues while Obama has them "laser focused" on immigration. Check your favorite news source and count the VA reform stories vs. the immigration reform stories - which has the attention of our congress critters?
 
Starbuck said:

I've seen a lot of images, such as the one above, floating around the internet over the past week. When I see this, I wonder if Veterans Benefits and Immigration Reform are completely opposed.

For example, if we allow ten illegal immigrants to gain permanent residency, do ten veterans lose their benefits?
Click to expand...

What you are seeing is the frustration that Vet's have about the lip service they get from Washington versus the action that the law breakers have gotten.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
You ever been to towns with a large population of illegals? There certainly not enjoying a lifestyle that we consider middle class in America in 2014

I can name us up a couple towns like this Fresno, Arvin, Los Banos, and certain neighborhoods in LA feel like you walk into a Third World country. No submiminum wage does not support an acceptable standard of living
Click to expand...

Yet those areas are preferable to what they left or they would not stay there. Look at Detroit and the wonders of populations without work that do get "safety net" help so they will not leave or revolt (but seem to vote correctly). Instead of fighting that sub-minimum wage you instead want more illegal labor to fill those positions and more "safety net" help to keep those positions out of the hands of US citizen voters.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Immigration enforcement costs money which is precisely why we now "lack resources" to enforce the current immigration law. My point was that congress critters will not focus on VA issues while Obama has them "laser focused" on immigration. Check your favorite news source and count the VA reform stories vs. the immigration reform stories - which has the attention of our congress critters?
Click to expand...

It would seem that the VA does have their attention:

Care and Benefits for Veterans Strengthened by $164 Billion VA Budget

March 4, 2014, 08:00:00 AM

WASHINGTON – Continuing the transformation of the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) into a 21st century organization, the President has proposed a $163.9 billion budget, a 6.5 percent increase over Fiscal Year 2014, that will support VA’s goals to expand access to health care and other benefits, eliminate the disability claims backlog, and end homelessness among Veterans. The budget includes $68.4 billion in discretionary spending, largely for healthcare, and $95.6 billion for mandatory programs – mostly disability compensation and pensions for Veterans.

“This budget will allow us to continue the progress we have made in helping Veterans secure their place in the middle class,” said Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric K. Shinseki. “It is a tangible demonstration of the President’s commitment to ensuring Veterans and their families have the care and benefits they’ve earned and deserve.”
Click to expand...
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yet those areas are preferable to what they left or they would not stay there. Look at Detroit and the wonders of populations without work that do get "safety net" help so they will not leave or revolt (but seem to vote correctly). Instead of fighting that sub-minimum wage you instead want more illegal labor to fill those positions and more "safety net" help to keep those positions out of the hands of US citizen voters.
Click to expand...

No I actually cleRly stated the illegals need to go......

Here we go with Detroit again, about the only real argument you have, well cities like Seattle and San Francisco in Boston and numerous other cities you think of as liberal cities are doing very well economically. Detroit's problems are kind of like LA his problems they really result from corruption and not from actual application of Liberal policies
 
EMNofSeattle said:
No I actually cleRly stated the illegals need to go......

Here we go with Detroit again, about the only real argument you have, well cities like Seattle and San Francisco in Boston and numerous other cities you think of as liberal cities are doing very well economically. Detroit's problems are kind of like LA his problems they really result from corruption and not from actual application of Liberal policies
Click to expand...


Not in the post to which I replied. What is letting illegal aliens stay other than a liberal policy?
 
StillBallin75 said:
No, they're not, it's a stupid statement. Not to mention that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) should be viewed as assets to be developed, but are instead depicted by the right as a drain on society.
Click to expand...

I completely agree, which is exactly why I started the thread.

Back when my family came to this country, immigration was much simpler. They spent around a day on Ellis Island and provided they were not dangerous felons or harboring some infectious disease, and then legally entered the United States. It was a relatively fast process and allowed for millions of immigrants to enter the country yearly.

Basically, it followed the free-market.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Not in the post to which I replied. What is letting illegal aliens stay other than a liberal policy?
Click to expand...

I'd argue that it's a tenant of free-market capitalism.

If there's a demand for them to stay (i.e. more work/ better conditions than where they left) then they're going to stay. Legal or otherwise, and the free-market would dictate exactly that.
 
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