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Three Hours of Street Harassment in New York

Is street harassment of men an issue?


  • Total voters
    11
Like racism, sexism is a social construct requiring systemic privilege. Of course, any individual is capable of gender bigotry.

Sexism contributes to the mistreatment of women in the US. Do you deny this?

Ah... I see. More self-serving ideological hypocrisy. :roll:

"Harassment and discrimination are only wrong when they happen to groups I care about, everyone else should just shut up and take it, because I think they deserve to be taken down a peg."
 
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How would you even know how men are "usually" harassed?

Also, it is worth noting that most of the harassment was coming from gay men. NYC is a rather more "progressive" area that most of the rest of the country, so it might very well be the case that they feel comfortable being a bit more brazen there than is typical in the average US city.

I explained that; it seems to most often take the form of homophobia or queer/trans-phobia.

Minneapolis is the most gay-friendly city in the country, and a deep, dark shade of blue. We don't have a lot of gay-on-random-man harassment here, and I haven't heard of it in any substantial amount elsewhere. Gay people know what it's like to feel marginalized.

Okay, so was I "harassed" when teenage girls used to shout things at me out of the windows of passing cars in highschool?

Was I "harassed" when they came up to me and gave me their numbers?

After all, I was simply doing my job. I wasn't walking around for their benefit, or asking to be "objectified."

Has it occurred to you that at least a few of those men might simply be trying to get your attention with non-nefarious motivations at heart?

Granted, they're going about it all the wrong way. However, I really don't think this is as big of a deal as you're making out.

Even if nothing is said, most people are going to notice an attractive member of the opposite sex when they walk by, and "objectify" appealing aspects of their anatomy. I, quite frankly, wouldn't say that there is anything wrong with it.

The major issue here is one of approach.

Yes, that's harassment. I imagine if it was something that had happened only a couple times, I might feel similarly to you, just like I do when any random and uncommon display of rudeness happens -- that doesn't bug me and it might even be funny. It's a one-off occurrence.

But that's not how it is for women, or certain men. It's the commonness of it that is the problem, and it indicates a social problem in that there are really quite a lot of men who feel it's acceptable to do. It's not just some random dumb teen, or some tweaker guy. There are enough of them that it might happen literally every time you go outside. That's a systemic social problem, not random rude people.

Noticing people versus forcing yourself into their world are two very different things.

Would you imagine that you're just as likely to experience street harassment in an upper scale suburban neighborhood as in a lower class inner city area?

Yes. Actually, an upper scale suburban neighborhood were where my earliest experiences with harassment happened, and also some of my worst to this day.

A certain entitled mindset common to such neighborhoods can make some people feel much more empowered to try to degrade others.

You know about my busker friends from back in the day and all that, right? A couple of them were actually making very good money, but a lot of them were poor, a few were homeless, etc. Not a rich crowd overall. And certainly a very city crowd.

I have never experienced less harassment in my life. Not even once, in an entire 9 months.

It depends entirely on the social ethos, which have nothing to do with money.
 
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"Harassment and discrimination are only wrong when they happen to groups I care about, everyone else should just shut up and take it, because I think they deserve to be taken down a peg."

Who said that? I said an ism is a social construct and distinct from an individual act unsupported by systemic privilege.

Of course, gender bigotry is always to be condemned, but that doesn't remove my ability to assess an ism from a social perspective.

For all the complaints about the "race card" and the "sexism card", why is it that you constantly claim white straight men are victims?
 
I explained that; it seems to most often take the form of homophobia or queer/trans-phobia.

Minneapolis is the most gay-friendly city in the country, and a deep, dark shade of blue. We don't have a lot of gay-on-random-man harassment here, and I haven't heard of it in any substantial amount elsewhere. Gay people know what it's like to feel marginalized.

Well... To be fair, most "random guys" don't look like the one in the OP video either. :lol:

Yes, that's harassment. I imagine if it was something that had happened only a couple times, I might feel similarly to you, just like I do when any random and uncommon display of rudeness happens -- that doesn't bug me and it might even be funny. It's a one-off occurrence.

But that's not how it is for women, or certain men. It's the commonness of it that is the problem, and it indicates a social problem in that there are really quite a lot of men who feel it's acceptable to do. It's not just some random dumb teen, or some tweaker guy. There are enough of them that it might happen literally every time you go outside. That's a systemic social problem, not random rude people.

Noticing people versus forcing yourself into their world are two very different things.

A major problem with your idea here is that the attention in question isn't always unwanted. Some women (and men) actually enjoy it, and will respond positively to such advances.

No offense, but in that regard, I think your definition of "harassment" is rather broad.

For example, I am an introvert, somewhat uptight by nature, and was taught against making a spectacle of myself. As such, I'd never even dream of "catcalling."

However, I have, while out on the town in a state of buzzed over-confidence, approached strange women (sometimes even on the street) on a whim when they have particularly struck my fancy. Now, granted, it didn't work out very well for me, so I quickly learned not to do so.

I still wouldn't call that "harassment" though.

I introduced myself, made clear my interest, and asked for their number. When they indicated that they were not interested, I thanked them for their time, and went on my merry way.

I figured, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." :shrug:

Yes. Actually, an upper scale suburban neighborhood were where my earliest experiences with harassment happened, and also some of my worst to this day.

A certain entitled mindset common to such neighborhoods can make some people feel much more empowered to try to degrade others.

You know about my busker friends from back in the day and all that, right? A couple of them were actually making very good money, but a lot of them were poor, a few were homeless, etc. Not a rich crowd overall. And certainly a very city crowd.

I have never experienced less harassment in my life. Not even once, in an entire 9 months.

It depends entirely on the social ethos, which have nothing to do with money.

This is anecdotal, and therefore unverifiable one way or the other.

Needless to say, however, I am skeptical that the average young woman will run across many suburban soccer dads prone to "holla at a bitch" in the same way that some other sub-cultural groups would.
 
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Who said that? I said an ism is a social construct and distinct from an individual act unsupported by systemic privilege.

Are you seriously trying to claim that catcalling is the result of a coherent ideological worldview? :roll:
 
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Well... To be fair, most "random guys" don't look like the one in the OP video either. :lol:

A major problem with your idea here is that the attention in question here isn't always unwanted. Some women (and men) actually enjoy it, and will respond positively to such advances.

No offense, but in that regard, I think your definition of "harassment" is rather broad.

For example, I'm an introvert, somewhat uptight by nature, and was taught against making a spectacle of myself. As such, I'd never even dream of "catcalling."

However, I have, while out on the town in a state of buzzed over-confidence, approached strange women on a whim when they particularly struck my fancy. Now, granted, it didn't work out very well for me, so I quickly learned not to do so. I still wouldn't call that "harassment" though.

I introduced myself, made clear my interest, and asked for their number. When they indicated that they were not interested, I thanked them for their time, and went on my merry way.

I figured, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." :shrug:

So you're taking out the catcalling part you talked about in order to totally change the context of your original question and accuse me of being overly sensitive. Not bothering...

This is anecdotal, and therefore unverifiable one way or the other.

Needless to say, however, I am skeptical that the average young woman will run across many suburban soccer dads prone to "holla at a bitch" in the same way that some other sub-cultural groups would.

It's very simple. People will try to get away with what their social group permits, or encourages. In my experience, that isn't correlated to money. Lower class cultures can be good or bad, upper class cultures can be good or bad. In the 'burbs, seems to be mostly young guys.

What, you mean they wouldn't say what your stereotyped concept of a poor person, and thus inherently a black person, would say? Why don't you just say that instead of alluding to it?
 
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So you're taking out the catcalling part you talked about in order to totally change the context of your original question and accuse me of being overly sensitive. Not bothering...

You were the one who defined "harassment" as being (and I'm editing this down to just the parts relevant to this particular accusation)...

anything obviously objectifying, like the person is walking around for your benefit. Anything sexual, obviously.

You also said that girls giving me their numbers while I was on the job counted as "harassment."

Well... When I swaggered up to some college girl on the street and asked for her number, for basically no other reason than that she happened to be kind of cute (and have easily the best ass I'd seen all night, wrapped up in 'painted on' skin tight white jeans :lol: ), what else could you possibly describe that as being other than what you listed above?

Frankly, if that's what you mean when you talk about "harassment," I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of the term in the first place. :shrug:

It's very simple. People will try to get away with what their social group permits, or encourages. In my experience, that isn't correlated to money. Lower class cultures can be good or bad, upper class cultures can be good or bad. In the 'burbs, seems to be mostly young guys.

What, you mean they wouldn't say what your stereotyped concept of a black person would say? Why don't you just say that instead of alluding to it?

Young lower class black or latino guys, frat boys (of any race), or etca, yes.

The simple fact of the matter is that you're dealing with groups that have been culturally conditioned towards crass and offensive behavior there.

If you're hanging out in an area where there happen to be a lot of them, crass and offensive behavior is typically exactly what you'll get.
 
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Young black or latino guys, frat boys (of any race), or etca, yes.

The simple fact of the matter is that you're dealing with groups that have been culturally conditioned towards crass and offensive behavior there.

If you're hanging out in an area where there happen to be a lot of them, crass and offensive behavior is typically exactly what you'll get.


Wow... all young blacks and latinos, and rich popular guys. Who would have guessed.

My frat was entirely respectful of women, as were the others except for one. We didn't tolerate any harassment or even behavior unbecoming the frat. You've never actually been in a frat, have you? I bet you don't know anything about young blacks or latinos either.
 
You were the one who defined "harassment" as being (and I'm editing this down to just the parts relevant to this particular accusation)...


Well... When I swagger up to some college girl on the street and ask for her number, for basically no other reason than that she happens to be kind of cute (and have easily the best ass I've seen all night, wrapped up in 'painted on' skin tight white jeans :lol: ), what else could you describe that as being other than the above?

:shrug:

Yes, and to most women that is really unacceptable, thus your lack of a success rate. Yet somehow you think this is still sometimes ok, because "some girls like it" -- never mind that you've never met any.

Young black or latino guys, frat boys (of any race), or etca, yes.

The simple fact of the matter is that you're dealing with groups that have been culturally conditioned towards crass and offensive behavior there.

So... all minorities, and college guys, are crass, offensive, bad people.

Right. Because that sounds so much better than if you were only saying bigoted things about just black people.

Cloistered, older white men are teh bestest. No such thing as women being harassed, especially when you're doing it. Or racism, especially when you're doing it.

Everything's normal in Gathland. Going to bed now. Have fun. :inandout:
 
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Wow... all young blacks and latinos, and rich popular guys. Who would have guessed.

My frat was entirely respectful of women, as were the others except for one . We didn't tolerate any harassment or even behavior unbecoming the frat. You've never actually been in a frat, have you? I bet you don't know anything about young blacks or latinos either.

Sure it was. :lamo

In any case, the fact of the matter is that you're talking about groups whose primary cultural exports tend to be media along the lines of this...



This...



And this...



If you want to argue that the blatant "sexism" on display in all of those subcultures contributes to the problem of "catcalling," "street harassment," and generally crude and offensive behavior on the part of young men, I'd absolutely agree with you.

However, I would warn you that the "society" it speaks ill of really isn't mine in the first place.
 
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I actually quite like New Yorkers. I'd say I actually get harassed less there than in Minneapolis.

Anyway, there is a street harassment issue for men, but I have never heard of it in the way it's being portrayed here, which is to say dominantly in the context of objectifying sexual harassment.

Often, for men, street harassment takes the form of basically hate speech. It's particularly targeted at men who fit someone's stereotype of "gay" or "queer" (whether they consider themselves such or not). About a quarter of men report street harassment. That's obviously much higher than the percentage who actually are gay or queer. I haven't seen an exact break-down of how much harassment of men is of the hate speech variety, and how much is other types of harassment.

National Street Harassment Report- Stop Street Harassment

I admit I'm rather skeptical of your video. He's basically contending that men get three times as much street harassment as women... despite the fact that it's still at least half if not mostly guys doing it. I'm sorry, but I really don't buy that.

Look, harassment happens. Just after I got out of the service I was working at a country club waiting tables and on more than one occasion I had one of the bridge ladies grab my junk. Hell, the woman who hired me admitted that it was my ass that got me the job. It was actually kind of cool to have women turn to take a look from time to time.


Frankly, I miss it:lol:
 
Sure it was. :lamo

You've never even been in a frat. What would you know about them? You're just jealous, like those Che T-shirt kids. You also don't know crap about young latinos or blacks, so spare us your vitriol towards races as well, thanks.
 
Yes, and to most women that is really unacceptable, thus your lack of a success rate. Yet somehow you think this is still sometimes ok, because "some girls like it"

Sooo... Again, to be clear here, you are, in essence, saying that taking any kind of spontaneous sexual initiative is basically a form of "harassment," even if you're polite and take "no" for an answer?

Seriously?
wtf_smiley.gif


-- never mind that you've never met any.

I've met plenty. The "hook up culture" basically runs on the premise I mentioned above. :lol:

i.e.

Someone looks attractive, and so you try to have sex with them.

Hell! It's the guiding principle behind all human coupling in general to at least some extent!

So... all minorities, and college guys, are crass, offensive, bad people.

No, though you cannot deny that there are some rather troubling trends in each culture which only serve to make certain offensive behaviors more likely.

As I said to Eco, just look at the media which tends to be aimed at these groups, and the kind of worldviews it encourages.

Edit:

For that matter, since when are all men in college "frat boys?"
 
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You've never even been in a frat. What would you know about them? You're just jealous, like those Che T-shirt kids. You also don't know crap about young latinos or blacks, so spare us your vitriol towards races as well, thanks.

I've known plenty of frat boys, and I've seen the way they tend to behave in public, especially while intoxicated.

Let's just say that I'm not exactly surprised to hear that you were one of their number, and leave things at that. ;)
 
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Or, you know... It could simply be the case that neither group are "victims" and this whole thing is really little more than a lot of artificially manufactured outrage about nothing.

:roll:

But it is not "artificially manufactured outrage about nothing." Women have a harder go at things like that then we do. Women and certainly young girls are victims when they are harassed, and honestly, it bothers me more when women get mistreated then when men do. I suppose I was just raised to treat women better than myself is all I'm saying.
 
But it is not "artificially manufactured outrage about nothing." Women have a harder go at things like that then we do. Women and certainly young girls are victims when they are harassed, and honestly, it bothers me more when women get mistreated then when men do. I suppose I was just raised to treat women better than myself is all I'm saying.

So was I. Make no mistake, I certainly don't condone catcalling.

I simply disagree with the feminist perspective on it, and the ideological conclusions to which they allow it to lead them.

I mean... Seriously, have you read the kind of nonsense S&M has been posting in this thread?

Politely asking for or giving someone your number because you think they are attractive counts as "harassment?" Since when? :screwy
 
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So was I. Make no mistake, I certainly don't condone catcalling.

I simply disagree with the feminist perspective on it, and the ideological conclusions to which they allow it to lead them.

I mean... Seriously, have you read the kind of nonsense S&M has been posting in this thread?

Politely asking for or giving someone your number counts as "harassment?" Since when? :screwy

That's more of your militant feminism than your black and white feminism. Extreme positions like that can be casually dismissed as 'ignorant'.
 
Sorry, needs Greek letters. And it has to be a social frat, not a geek club.

Yeah, I can only imagine the mayhem that would have occurred had I joined a hardcore partying frat. We party hard and wake up the next not only in a lot of trouble but we have no clue how we got there. That's what my brothers did to me when I turned 21 in the Marines. I remember getting back to the sidewalk in-front of the barracks by taxi but the next thing I remember is waking up on the beach face down 4 hours late for morning formation.
 
Yeah, I can only imagine the mayhem that would have occurred had I joined a hardcore partying frat. We party hard and wake up the next not only in a lot of trouble but we have no clue how we got there. That's what my brothers did to me when I turned 21 in the Marines. I remember getting back to the sidewalk in-front of the barracks by taxi but the next thing I remember is waking up on the beach face down 4 hours late for morning formation.

In the army, I remember vomiting at 4am and running 10 miles at 6am. These days, a vomitous drunkenness requires days to recover.
 
That's more of your militant feminism than your black and white feminism. Extreme positions like that can be casually dismissed as 'ignorant'.

Perhaps. However, I think you will find that S&M's position on this matter is more prevalent in the minds of the feminist left than you might like to imagine.

"Don't look at, talk to, or sexualize us in any way (unless we want you to, which you're just supposed to read our minds about, apparently) or else you're an evil sexist who's oppressing women through harassment" seems to be the overall gist of the message here.

Frankly, even besides that, the other major issue is that they're not willing to address the root causes of the problem anyway; namely our horndog "anything goes" culture, and the depraved ideas about sex, courtship, and acceptable social behavior it tends to give a lot of young men.

At the end of the day, the only aim of this nonsense is to rile up women, and try and make men who actually don't misbehave feel bad about their gender, so they'll both be more likely to support feminist ideological and legislative causes. The kinds of men who actually are guilty of this kind of misogynistic crap, quite frankly, don't give a damn.
 
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At the end of the day, the only aim of this nonsense is to rile up women, and try and make men who actually don't misbehave feel bad about their gender,

Such a victim.

I can accept the existence of sexism and not "feel bad about my gender"; I don't take everything personally like a psycho and my self worth is not based in group identity, so why would my gender make me feel bad?

I can also accept that racism exists and not feel bad about my race. Again, because I don't take social things personally and my self worth is not based in group identity.

Needing to deny sexism and racism to avoid feeling bad about ones sex and race is bonkers.
 
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In the army, I remember vomiting at 4am and running 10 miles at 6am. These days, a vomitous drunkenness requires days to recover.

I'm still at the point where I'm good the next day ;)
 
Such a victim.

I can accept the existence of sexism and not "feel bad about my gender", because i don't take everything personally like a psycho.

Right, because you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that you're not one of us, but somewhere off in space as your own "enlightened" category all unto yourself.

We're all well aware, Eco. :roll:

Misplaced notions of grandeur aside, the agenda at play here is no less intrinsically anti-male.
 
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