• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How Much Of This Is Truly Harassment????

How Much Of This Is Truly Harassment????


  • Total voters
    55
Well American culture has been pretty hard on men. Ifyou watch television, they are portrayed as idiots. Particularly fathers. It started with Archie bunker, than homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Phil from modern family, Raymond from everybody loves Raymond. Even shows that have men in them without children. Rules of engagement. Men are portrayed as dumb, or frivolous, obsessed with food or sex. The culture seems to be reflected in the entertainment. Though I like all of those shows, I can't help but notice that.

Must be hard.
The only men that American culture is "hard on" on men of color. Incidentally, your example only points out white men who not only have it great in American culture, but who also have it the absolute best in American culture.
 
Ummm.....name a popular all-female professional sport televised on national TV with regular frequency?
Who's the female Neil Degrasse Tyson?
Who's the female Warren Buffett?

Name a male who can compete with the likes of Martha Steward or Rachael Ray in the domestic marketing business.
Name a male supermodel who's not a complete joke.

Men and women tend to gravitate towards different fields of interest. This doesn't mean much of anything in and of itself.

Also - do you think the Kartrasian shows, and Real Housewife shows portray women in a wonderful light?

The Kardashians and "real housewives" are being themselves. They simply happen to be horrible people.

The male characters Clax was alluding to are artificial constructions, specifically meant to played for laughs.

Besides, the men on the shows you mentioned typically aren't portrayed any better than the women.

Name a show where the top detective that solves all the crimes is a female character?

Veronica Mars, Alias, Harriett the Spy, Nancy Drew, and several popular detective shows on television at the moment.

Ever seen Law & Order SVU, for instance?

I can list off at least a half a dozen men who've had that role. Who's the female version of Baretta, Kojak, Magnum PI, Iron Sides, Rockford....
Was there a female MacGyver?

And why don't you ask for a female version of Rocky, Rambo, or 1980s Arnold Schwarzenegger while you're at it? :roll:

Again, men and women have different interests. This tends to affect the roles they play in media.

It doesn't mean that anyone is being "oppressed."
 
Last edited:
Name a male who can compete with the likes of Martha Steward or Rachael Ray in the domestic marketing business.
Richard Simmons? :2razz:
 
I think Lizzie's point was that the woman in question was walking through somewhat "trashy" parts of the city
She wasn't


around "trashy" people
Not that either


and the reactions she got tended to be "trashy" for that exact reason.
Or maybe they're "trashy" because.... they're trashy comments, with guys hitting on a random woman in broad daylight as she's minding her own business? ;)


If some ghetto black guy (or drunken frat boy, for that matter) wants to "holla at a bitch," what the Hell am I supposed to do about it? It was their decision, not mine. :shrug:
Let's be clear, no one is holding you accountable for another person's actions.

What you could do, if you so choose, is support a group that is trying to change this behavior. Or at least acknowledge that it's a real issue.
 
She wasn't

Not that either

Or maybe they're "trashy" because.... they're trashy comments, with guys hitting on a random woman in broad daylight as she's minding her own business?

Because skeezy looking guys in wife beaters loitering on street corners in the middle of the day is simply the epitome of "class," amirite? :roll:

What you could do, if you so choose, is support a group that is trying to change this behavior. Or at least acknowledge that it's a real issue.

How are you proposing that they change it?

More ridiculous and draconian anti-male legislation?

For that matter, why am I the one being made aware of this in the first place? Again, it's not usually men from my class or background who are responsible for this kind of thing anyway.

The ones that actually are, quite frankly, don't give a damn what you, I, or a bunch of ivory tower feminists happen to think about their behavior.
 
Last edited:
Name a male who can compete with the likes of Martha Steward or Rachael Ray in the domestic marketing business.
Name a male supermodel who's not a complete joke.

House keeping and beauty?

You left out babysitters, nurses and teachers!!
 
House keeping and beauty?

You left out babysitters, nurses and teachers!!

Which are all roles women tend to naturally gravitate towards as well, as they tend to cater to female strengths and female interests. It doesn't mean that they are not respectable professions, or that there is not wealth and prestige to be gained there. It also does not mean that women cannot seek out other professions if they so choose.

It simply means that men are predisposed to be more noteworthy in some fields, and women in others.

Why is the Left so fundamentally opposed to acknowledging the simple reality that men and women are, on a biological and behavioral level, different?

There is no shame in it.
 
Last edited:
Because skeezy looking guys in wife beaters loitering on street corners in the middle of the day is simply the epitome of "class," amirite? :roll:
1) The video is not, and is not intended to be, an exhaustive study of the class, ethnicity and/or race of street harassers.
2) I see the same people I walk past almost every day. They're not sketchy looking, it is the behavior that is sketchy.


How are you proposing that they change it? More ridiculous and draconian anti-male legislation?
No.

And the group can speak for itself, in terms of recommended actions. Hollaback! You have the power to end street harassment


For that matter, why am I the one being made aware of this in the first place?
Meaning what, no one who wants to advocate for a cause should bother to make videos that you personally might see? :confused:

The whole purpose of an "awareness raising" campaign is just to get people (in general) aware of an issue. It's a standard and acceptable method of advocating for a cause. They aren't going to give you a survey, and only show the video to people who meet certain criteria.

Or perhaps you think those obnoxious women should just shut up and take it?


The ones that actually are, quite frankly, don't give a damn what you, I, or a bunch of ivory tower feminists happen to think about their behavior.
So basically, no one should care about inappropriate behavior, because you don't think it can be changed? Nice.
 
Which are all roles women tend to naturally gravitate towards as well...
What BS. There is no genetic or hereditary predisposition for women to clean kitchen and sweep floors. That's cultural, not innate.


Why is the Left so fundamentally opposed to acknowledging the simple reality that men and women are, on a biological and behavioral level, different? There is no shame in it.
There's shame in expressing reactionary sexist views, which have basically no evidence to support them.

Unless, of course, you do know of specific genetic traits, only present in women, that make them prefer domestic duties...?
 
Some of it is very creepy but by the definition of the word none of it looks to be harassment.

It's clear that the woman doesn't want men to talk to her, and that's fine, but that doesn't actually make it harassment especially when she hasn't actually told them she doesn't want them talking to her.
 
What's the working definition of "harassment"?

What would the guys in the video have to do to turn those instances into actual harassment (under your definition)?

ha·rass·ment
həˈrasmənt,ˈherəsmənt/
noun
aggressive pressure or intimidation.
"they face daily harassment by the police"
synonyms: persecution, intimidation, pressure, force, coercion; informalhassle
"the report cites three separate accusations of harassment"
 
ha·rass·ment
həˈrasmənt,ˈherəsmənt/
noun
aggressive pressure or intimidation.
"they face daily harassment by the police"
synonyms: persecution, intimidation, pressure, force, coercion; informalhassle
"the report cites three separate accusations of harassment"

(1) : to annoy persistently (2) : to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

See number 2 please.
 
Which are all roles women tend to naturally gravitate towards as well, as they tend to cater to female strengths and female interests. It doesn't mean that they are not respectable professions, or that there is not wealth and prestige to be gained there. It also does not mean that women cannot seek out other professions if they so choose.

It simply means that men are predisposed to be more noteworthy in some fields, and women in others.

Why is the Left so fundamentally opposed to acknowledging the simple reality that men and women are, on a biological and behavioral level, different?

There is no shame in it.

Sorry what are these fields that men are inherently predisposed to be more noteworthy in?

Recognizing different strengths as inherently male or inherently female is a load of socially motivated BS. There are millions of 'sensitive' men and millions of 'strong' women. These 'behavioural differences' do not predispose a man to be a better boss, farmer or engineer and a woman to be a worse one. They also do not predispose women to be better nurses or babysitters, and men worse ones. There are plenty of women who hate kids, and plenty of men who love them and want to become stay at home dads etc.

Biological differences in strength etc only realistically come into play at peak performance levels. That's not to mention that as industry in the west becomes more and more tertiary there are fewer 'heavy lifting' jobs anyway. Regardless, there are likely millions of women out there that are better predisposed than me or you to become construction workers.
 
See number 2 please.

Exactly which of those fit the description?

I mean, do I know have the cite the definition of persistently to you?

Again, it's fine this woman doesn't want men to talk to her but that doesn't mean someone saying "hello" is harassing her.
 
1) The video is not, and is not intended to be, an exhaustive study of the class, ethnicity and/or race of street harassers.

I have never harassed a woman on the street, nor do I know anyone who has.

Hell! I've never ever witnessed it.

Again, the simple fact of the matter here is that this is only really a problem for a small minority of men, who generally tend to belong sub-cultural groups which make up small minorities of the overall population anyway.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with me, nor is there anything I can do to prevent it. The ball is their court, so to speak.

2) I see the same people I walk past almost every day. They're not sketchy looking, it is the behavior that is sketchy.

We will have to agree to disagree on that.

And the group can speak for itself, in terms of recommended actions. Hollaback! You have the power to end street harassment

Well, good for them. :shrug:

I'm still not seeing what that has to do with me, however.

Meaning what, no one who wants to advocate for a cause should bother to make videos that you personally might see? :confused:

The whole purpose of an "awareness raising" campaign is just to get people (in general) aware of an issue. It's a standard and acceptable method of advocating for a cause. They aren't going to give you a survey, and only show the video to people who meet certain criteria.

Or perhaps you think those obnoxious women should just shut up and take it?

So basically, no one should care about inappropriate behavior, because you don't think it can be changed? Nice.

No, but I'm not understanding what you think you're going to accomplish by marketing your "awareness" campaign primarily at Middle and Upper class audiences, when this is a primarily lower class problem to begin with.

It has nothing to do with me one way or the other.

Are you expecting me to form an anti-street harassment vigilante squad here, or press for legislation making it illegal?

What BS. There is no genetic or hereditary predisposition for women to clean kitchen and sweep floors. That's cultural, not innate.

There's shame in expressing reactionary sexist views, which have basically no evidence to support them.

Unless, of course, you do know of specific genetic traits, only present in women, that make them prefer domestic duties...?

It's called "nesting instinct."

Driven to clean: Nesting instinct among pregnant women has an evolutionary backstory

It can be observed among the female sexes of just about every mammalian species we are aware of, and even, rather acutely, in pregnant human women. It likely exists in most non-pregnant women to a lesser degree as well.

Beyond which, the simple fact of the matter is that no one is forcing women to enjoy Martha Steward, Rachael Ray, or the products they sell more than men do.

They do that all on their own.

Other than the fact that it happens to contradict your goofy political ideology, why is that a problem? :shrug:
 
Last edited:
Which are all roles women tend to naturally gravitate towards as well, as they tend to cater to female strengths and female interests. It doesn't mean that they are not respectable professions, or that there is not wealth and prestige to be gained there. It also does not mean that women cannot seek out other professions if they so choose.

It simply means that men are predisposed to be more noteworthy in some fields, and women in others.

Why is the Left so fundamentally opposed to acknowledging the simple reality that men and women are, on a biological and behavioral level, different?

There is no shame in it.


I would pay big money to have you say this in front of my wife.
 
I'm sorry to hear that she is opposed to reality and simple common sense. :shrug:

Your brand of common sense is a lot less common than you would like to think.
 
I have never harassed a woman on the street, nor do I know anyone who has. Hell! I've never ever witnessed it.
I have, in many cities. In fact, I've seen much worse. Many female friends of mine have been harassed like this, often with much stronger language.

And of course... the video is an example of this type of behavior. Don't you feel a bit more educated now? ;)


Again, the simple fact of the matter here is that this is only really a problem for a small minority of men, who generally tend to belong sub-cultural groups which make up small minorities of the overall population anyway.
Or, it's a problem that is common in many areas, notably dense environments (where women happen to walk past more men in an hour), and is not limited to specific cultures.


Well, good for them. :shrug: I'm still not seeing what that has to do with me, however.
I'm sorry, but this is a silly argument. It's not like they sent you a DVD in the mail with your name on it. You came across the video. If you sympathize with women who are frequently put in this kind of situation, you have the option to do something about it.


No, but I'm not understanding what you think you're going to accomplish by marketing your "awareness" campaign primarily at Middle and Upper class audiences, when this is a primarily lower class problem to begin with.
To be clear, I am not marketing anything. I have no affiliation whatsoever with Hollaback, just pointing you to their website.

The organization also wasn't targeting upper and middle class audiences. There is nothing in their materials which makes any such suggestion, and they repeatedly state that this problem is not limited by location, race, ethnicity, culture. It also doesn't depend on how the woman is dressed, whether she reacts or ignores them. All they did was put the video out there, the media picked it up, and as a result they've gotten millions of views, far beyond what they expected.


Ah, I see. So women are pregnant all the time, and want to clean stuff, and this inherently restricts their career preferences. Got it. :lamo

How does the nesting instinct, which only really kicks in well into pregnancy, preclude women from working as police officers, or doctors, or scientists, or computer programmers?

Do the number of women exceed the number of men in jobs like dental hygienists, speech therapy pathologists, paralegals, teachers, physical therapists, and doctor's assistants because of a nesting instinct, that only really kicks in well into pregnancy?

Did you not notice how the control in that study was other women? As in, most of the time women are not overwhelmed by a need to clean? (Did you even read the study, or just the abstract?)

I hate to break this to you, but you're drawing a patently ridiculous conclusion based on some useful research. It's one thing to note that women want to provide a clean and safe environment for their infants while pregnant (mostly around the 5th month of pregnancy). It's another, on that basis, to assume that women have an innate preference for domesticity, that is active 100% of the time, and somehow affects their career choice.

Thanks for the amusement, but no thanks for trying to bolster your pre-existing and culturally influenced ideas based on science.
 
I have, in many cities. In fact, I've seen much worse. Many female friends of mine have been harassed like this, often with much stronger language.

And of course... the video is an example of this type of behavior. Don't you feel a bit more educated now? ;)



Or, it's a problem that is common in many areas, notably dense environments (where women happen to walk past more men in an hour), and is not limited to specific cultures.



I'm sorry, but this is a silly argument. It's not like they sent you a DVD in the mail with your name on it. You came across the video. If you sympathize with women who are frequently put in this kind of situation, you have the option to do something about it.



To be clear, I am not marketing anything. I have no affiliation whatsoever with Hollaback, just pointing you to their website.

The organization also wasn't targeting upper and middle class audiences. There is nothing in their materials which makes any such suggestion, and they repeatedly state that this problem is not limited by location, race, ethnicity, culture. It also doesn't depend on how the woman is dressed, whether she reacts or ignores them. All they did was put the video out there, the media picked it up, and as a result they've gotten millions of views, far beyond what they expected.



Ah, I see. So women are pregnant all the time, and want to clean stuff, and this inherently restricts their career preferences. Got it. :lamo

How does the nesting instinct, which only really kicks in well into pregnancy, preclude women from working as police officers, or doctors, or scientists, or computer programmers?

Do the number of women exceed the number of men in jobs like dental hygienists, speech therapy pathologists, paralegals, teachers, physical therapists, and doctor's assistants because of a nesting instinct, that only really kicks in well into pregnancy?

Did you not notice how the control in that study was other women? As in, most of the time women are not overwhelmed by a need to clean? (Did you even read the study, or just the abstract?)

I hate to break this to you, but you're drawing a patently ridiculous conclusion based on some useful research. It's one thing to note that women want to provide a clean and safe environment for their infants while pregnant (mostly around the 5th month of pregnancy). It's another, on that basis, to assume that women have an innate preference for domesticity, that is active 100% of the time, and somehow affects their career choice.

Thanks for the amusement, but no thanks for trying to bolster your pre-existing and culturally influenced ideas based on science.

Ask him about his love life. :lamo
 
I have, in many cities. In fact, I've seen much worse. Many female friends of mine have been harassed like this, often with much stronger language.

Stronger then "have a nice day?"

I didn't know harassing language got stronger then that!

:roll:
 
Exactly which of those fit the description?

I mean, do I know have the cite the definition of persistently to you?

Again, it's fine this woman doesn't want men to talk to her but that doesn't mean someone saying "hello" is harassing her.

You don't think anything that happened in that video fits this definition???

to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

Here, let me paraphrase it to be most clear.

to create an unpleasant situation by uninvited and unwelcome verbal conduct

Nothing like that came across to you in that video?
 
You don't think anything that happened in that video fits this definition???

to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

Here, let me paraphrase it to be most clear.

to create an unpleasant situation by uninvited and unwelcome verbal conduct

Nothing like that came across to you in that video?

Fill me in on some stuff because maybe I just don't know what "harassment" is. Under the following circumstances am I "harassing" a woman by:

1. Checking her out as she walks by or is in front of me in line?
2. Making eye contact and saying "Hello" as she passes?
3. Turning and checking her out if she ignores me after #2?
4. Saying "Lookin' good!" as she jogs past?
 
Back
Top Bottom