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Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

  • Total voters
    57
  • Poll closed .
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
So tell me EB - as a big natural rights believer perhaps you can answer a question when others here are avoiding it like french kissing an ebola carrier.

If a belief in natural rights exists only in the belief system of the believer, can you explain how at the same time you can assert that these rights are "pre-existing" since a right which exists only as a belief cannot be exercised or used or enjoyed in reality in our world?
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your first mistake....you made claims you cannot support, yet you ask questions of me.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
It has nothing to do with everyone else. It has to do with a small number of people who employ intentional tactics to kill debate and control opinion on this issue.

And it has nothing to do with being right or wrong on any issue or claim of fact or even opinion.

I made a lengthy post on this a few months ago in the SUGGESTIONS section. It can be found here.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/feedb...-intentional-killing-debate-needs-change.html
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that silliness is really tl so I dr

and I am not the one whose posts are called evasive, dishonest etc
 
Re: Proof and Facts

vasuderatorrent said:
Anytime I come across tl dr then I will intervene. It's a pet peeve of mine. It is something that nobody should ever say. It's childish and disrespectful. You shouldn't say it. Next time I read a comment when you say it I will say something similar. Nobody should ever say it. A person should always be called out for making a dumb comment like that.

The short version: It's a pet peeve of mine.
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Intervene? :lol:
 
Re: Proof and Facts

TurtleDude said:
tl dr ts
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Stop doing that. It's totally disrespectful and makes you look like an imbecile. If you are too lazy to read just don't say anything. You don't have to make disrespectful and childish comments that make you appear to be less intelligent than you actually are.

Stop! There is no reason for you to be using these disrespectful and childish comments. If you are overwhelmed by the volume of information just don't read or tell them that you are overwhelmed with the information and incapable of reading it. Then he can take your limitations into consideration in the future. If you make childish and disrespectful comments it discredits you severely. I'll say it one more time tonight. Stop!
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
your first mistake....you made claims you cannot support, yet you ask questions of me.
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So you too will not dare answer it because it destroys your belief system. Got it loud and clear.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

vasuderatorrent said:
Stop doing that. It's totally disrespectful and makes you look like an imbecile. If you are too lazy to read just don't say anything. You don't have to make disrespectful and childish comments that make you appear to be less intelligent than you actually are.

Stop! There is no reason for you to be using these disrespectful and childish comments. If you are overwhelmed by the volume of information just don't read or tell them that you are overwhelmed with the information and incapable of reading it. Then he can take your limitations into consideration in the future. If you make childish and disrespectful comments it discredits you severely. I'll say it one more time tonight. Stop!
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tl dr-who appointed you to be forum boss?

lets get back to the topic. the failure of proof that those who pretend the founders did not want to recognize natural rights was on the table
 
Re: Proof and Facts

TurtleDude said:
that silliness is really tl so I dr

and I am not the one whose posts are called evasive, dishonest etc
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You are the one who leads the pack who does the things I discussed. You asked me Turtle - and I gave you my honest opinion.

And I would bet a lot of money I am not telling you anything you do not know since you do this very very intentionally for the very reasons I laid out clearly and without any ambiguity.

And let me tell you one thing about me Turtle: I do not give a crap about what anybody else thinks about me or my style or anything else I post. My entire life I have been confident in my own skin and I am not the weak sister who needs a crowd to comfort them and nod their heads in gang style. So when somebody gloms on to your dishonest line about being evasive because you have nothing else of any substance - it means nothing to me. In fact, I can predict the names of the persons who would post agreement with you.

You saying you did not read is you saying you are so hopeless to refute it you have no other option than to resort to that sham. Its sad. Vas is 1000% correct.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
You are the one who leads the pack who does the things I discussed. You asked me Turtle - and I gave you my honest opinion.

And I would bet a lot of money I am not telling you anything you do not know since you do this very very intentionally for the very reasons I laid out clearly and without any ambiguity.

And let me tell you one thing about me Turtle: I do not give a crap about what anybody else thinks about me or my style or anything else I post. My entire life I have been confident in my own skin and I am not the weak sister who needs a crowd to comfort them and nod their heads in gang style. So when somebody gloms on to your dishonest line about being evasive because you have nothing else of any substance - it means nothing to me. In fact, I can predict the names of the persons who would post agreement with you.

You saying you did not read is you saying you are so hopeless to refute it you have no other option than to resort to that sham. Its sad. Vas is 1000% correct.
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Wow I am the leader of the pack.

you have never posted anything on this topic that is supported by fact or that appears to be honest to me
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
So you too will not dare answer it because it destroys your belief system. Got it loud and clear.
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sorry but YOU.... who has made claims here, not me....now you support them....instead of asking questions of people to disprove your claims.

in laymen's terms:.....stop trying to have people prove your statements wrong, the burden is on YOU, to prove your statements are correct.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

TurtleDude said:
Wow I am the leader of the pack.

you have never posted anything on this topic that is supported by fact or that appears to be honest to me
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you previously said you did not read it. Now you say it was not supported by fact or honesty.

So which is your lie?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
sorry but YOU.... who has made claims here, not me....now you support them....instead of asking questions of people to disprove your claims.

in laymen's terms:.....stop trying to have people prove your statements wrong, the burden is on YOU, to prove your statements are correct.
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Yup - I was right. My simple question has all the natural rights believers in knots.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Yup - I was right. My simple question has all the natural rights believers in knots.
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as usual you are going to produce nothing, but instead just make claims.....oh well I could see it coming a mile away, but I still had to make a statement to prove the point I was making about you.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

If proof is available, it can reasonably be asked for - it all depends on the situation.

For example a philosophical argument probably won't have much if any proof available.
But if we're talking finances of a nation or state, evidence/proof would be readily available.

You will always have outlier persons who insist anything they disagree with is unqualified as proof, yet there is a certain level of proof that any reasonable person should accept.

Then of course we enter into the interpretation of said evidence....all hell breaks loose, usually. Unless it's a really clear-cut situation.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
as usual you are going to produce nothing, but instead just make claims.....oh well I could see it coming a mile away, but I still had to make a statement to prove the point I was making about you.
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Thank you for again confirming you are not able to answer my simple question without also destroying any claim to the pre-existence of natural rights.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Thank you for again confirming you are not able to answer my simple question without also destroying any claim to the pre-existence of natural rights.
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lol ..answer your questions. I didn't make claims you did. and the ploy of trying to shift the burden on other people. and trying to take a victory lap, sends a clear message of you technic. which is low.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
lol ..answer your questions. I didn't make claims you did. and the ploy of trying to shift the burden on other people. and trying to take a victory lap, sends a clear message of you technic. which is low.
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yup - I found the natural rights believers achilles heel and now they scurry to protect it.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
disgraceful technic...disgraceful
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yeah - I guess coming up with a simple question that exposes your fraudulent claims about natural rights would indeed be considered as disgraceful by the believers in it.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
yup - I found the natural rights believers achilles heel and now they scurry to protect it.
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My take on the idea of natural rights is that they are a belief system that MAY be positive, so long as said natural rights are positive - belief in natural rights would seem to lead people to support codification of natural rights into constitutional rights, for example.

However so far as I know there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of natural rights.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
yeah - I guess coming up with a simple question that exposes your fraudulent claims about natural rights would indeed be considered as disgraceful by the believers in it.
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The Declaration of Independence:


IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --




you LOSE every time you try the BUCK the founders.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

The Mark said:
My take on the idea of natural rights is that they are a belief system that MAY be positive, so long as said natural rights are positive - belief in natural rights would seem to lead people to support codification of natural rights into constitutional rights, for example.

However so far as I know there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of natural rights.
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yes, that is a good point. you see the issue is not whether NR exist or not. The only issue is whether those who wrote the bill of rights

1) believed that such things exist (YES)

2) and sought to recognize those rights in the bill of rights (undeniably true)

so whether they "exist" is not relevant

what is relevant is that those who believed in NR and intended to protect and recognize them would not write a constitution or bill of rights that is statist as some claim

we argue only that the founders intended their documents to recognize and be based on that assumption (that NR exist) and once we have established that, it precludes some of the silly revisionist interpretations that clearly are counter to the assumptions of the founders

attacking the existence of NR is worthless and proves nothing but its a substitute for those who know that the founders so believed (which they cannot refute)
 
Re: Proof and Facts

The Mark said:
My take on the idea of natural rights is that they are a belief system that MAY be positive, so long as said natural rights are positive - belief in natural rights would seem to lead people to support codification of natural rights into constitutional rights, for example.

However so far as I know there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of natural rights.
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I have no problem with people believing in natural rights.... or the Faerie Kingdom .... or vampires .... or the Easter Bunny. It is fine with me.

But please DO NOT tell me that the rights we have today because of the US COnstitution PRE-EXISTED before they were ever written down when they only existed in the confines of somebody's own beliefs. And not one person can freely exercise or use a right which only exists in anothers mind and does not exist in the law of the country in which they reside.

If anyone says that natural rights pre-existed before written rights - they have a responsibility to prove it. Show me where they pre-existed and how people had the enjoyment and use of those rights before they were law.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

The Mark said:
My take on the idea of natural rights is that they are a belief system that MAY be positive, so long as said natural rights are positive - belief in natural rights would seem to lead people to support codification of natural rights into constitutional rights, for example.


However so far as I know there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of natural rights.
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are rights created by the constitution.....no.

natural rights are negative law or unwritten law.

privileges are positive law....written law
 
Re: Proof and Facts

TurtleDude said:
yes, that is a good point. you see the issue is not whether NR exist or not. The only issue is whether those who wrote the bill of rights

1) believed that such things exist (YES)
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You fail right out of the gate Turtle. The Founders DID NOT believe in natural rights as their statement about them in the Declaration was a blatant lie which leaves no doubt that it was merely a high fallutin pompous pontification made for the benefit of the gullible and naive who swallow such nonsense.

Lets apply your own logic to this and see how it works for you: nobody can believe in natural rights and the equality of all people with rights given by their Creator when they themselves enslave their fellow man and deny them all the so called rights that they claim they believe in.

It is worse than a pedophile buggering a child while making statements against child abuse at the very moment of their disgusting activities. Slavery is far more encompassing and last a hell of a lot longer.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
are rights created by the constitution.....no.

natural rights are negative law or unwritten law.

privileges are positive law....written law
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Still cannot answer the question I see EB.
 
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