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Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

  • Total voters
    57
  • Poll closed .
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
haymarket you can believe whatever you wish, but your record of being consistently wrong is a proven fact.



you were wrong when you stated: the Constitution was ratified in Sept 1788




you were wrong when you stated:the bill of rights was ratified in March of 1792




you were wrong when you stated: article 1 section 8 of the constitution granted the federal government power to directly tax the people., even though direct taxes on the people was prohibited by the Constitution.




you were wrong when you stated: the bill of rights gave people their rights.
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Please provide the evidence of these claims of factual error.

And then explain how if I or anyone else gets a simple date wrong - how that is any evidence of who is correct regarding a belief where our rights come from?

And then explain why any mistakes you have made in the past do not prove you are wrong about something you say about natural rights - as you are dishonestly trying to do with me?

everybody here makes a mistake of fact from time to time. That proves nothing either way about natural rights.
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
already proved many times, on many threads.
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Then simply reproduce that or link to one because you have just claimed to have done what nobody is history has ever done.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Please provide the evidence of these claims of factual error.

And then explain how if I or anyone else gets a simple date wrong - how that is any evidence of who is right regarding where our rights come from?

everybody here makes a mistake of fact from time to time. That proves nothing either way about natural rights.
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you stated natural rights do not exist, and started the DOI [a founding document ]is a lie.

when you have discussed the founding documents before, you were wrong and you have shown consistency in that position
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Then simply reproduce that or link to one because you have just claimed to have done what nobody is history has ever done.
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i have produced many links for you in thread after thread proving you wrong, as well have you own statements providing you wrong as well....[as previously noted]
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
you stated natural rights do not exist, and started the DOI [a founding document ]is a lie.

when you have discussed the founding documents before, you were wrong and you have shown consistency in that position
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2nd Amendment Truth (pushed by True Believers) is out there and they know it's all a conspiracy!

Everyone is lying. It's a trick. Ahhhhhhhh!


It's a sorry alternative to actually understanding the concepts.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
you stated natural rights do not exist, and started the DOI [a founding document ]is a lie.

when you have discussed the founding documents before, you were wrong and you have shown consistency in that position
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How does a simple mistake of a date provide any evidence that you are correct about natural rights and I am incorrect?

That is akin to claiming that because somebody got a math problem wrong two years ago, any math problem that they do is wrong. That sort of tactic is blatantly dishonest.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ecofarm said:
2nd Amendment Truth (pushed by True Believers) is out there and they know it's all a conspiracy!

Everyone is lying. It's a trick. Ahhhhhhhh!


It's a sorry alternative to actually understanding the concepts.
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That makes no sense. Who is saying everyone is lying? Who is saying its a trick?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
i have produced many links for you in thread after thread proving you wrong, as well have you own statements providing you wrong as well....[as previously noted]
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So you cannot provide any evidence that natural rights exist outside of any belief system held by the believer because they want to believe. Thank you.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
That makes no sense. Who is saying everyone is lying? Who is saying its a trick?
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Lots of people do - natural rights deniers. For example: Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Saddam...

It's like they're detached from humanity and lack the basic empathy inherent to humans that is needed to understand natural rights.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
How does a simple mistake of a date provide any evidence that you are correct about natural rights and I am incorrect?

That is akin to claiming that because somebody got a math problem wrong two years ago, any math problem that they do is wrong. That sort of tactic is blatantly dishonest.
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terrible track record on knowledge of founding documents.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ecofarm said:
Lots of people do - natural rights deniers. For example: Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Saddam...

It's like they're detached from humanity and lack the basic empathy inherent to humans that is needed to understand natural rights.
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And those people have what to do with the discussion here?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
And those people have what to do with the discussion here?
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There are plenty of natural rights deniers among our population here and in this thread. Their position should be understood for the inhuman garbage it is.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
terrible track record on knowledge of founding documents.
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Please provide evidence of that terrible track record complete with the quotes, the verifiable evidence of mistakes, the statements that were correct, and the percentage of error which validates your claim of a track record.

If you cannot do that - you have no claim of any terrible track record.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
So you cannot provide any evidence that natural rights exist outside of any belief system held by the believer because they want to believe. Thank you.
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telling me that natural rights only exist for those who believe in natural rights.....is a ridiculous position.

you are wrong because it is part of our founding documents, embodied in the Constitution, and written about by our founding fathers.

so to make it plain, on your side you have: ..... you.

opposite of your position we have:....... the founders, founding documents.
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

ecofarm said:
There are plenty of natural rights deniers among our population here and in this thread. Their position should be understood for the inhuman garbage it is.
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And it could not be a simple difference of opinion between people who have made a decision to believe something which cannot be proven and those who simply do not believe as you do? :doh:roll:
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
And it could not be a simple difference of opinion
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It's not. It's a horrid lack of understanding founded in a denial of empathy as inherent to humans.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Please provide evidence of that terrible track record complete with the quotes, the verifiable evidence of mistakes, the statements that were correct, and the percentage of error which validates your claim of a track record.

If you cannot do that - you have no claim of any terrible track record.
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already have done that , before you asked.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ecofarm said:
It's not. It's a horrid lack of understanding founded in a denial of empathy as inherent to humans.
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Why do you insist on demonizing those who simply do not believe as you do?

What proof do you have that a simple disagreement on this issue of a belief in natural rights translates into a lack of empathy on the part of people who do not believe in the theory of natural rights? Where is your evidence of this claim in attacking other people like you are doing?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ernst barkmann said:
already have done that , before you asked.
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You have not done anything close - let alone supply evidence for even one claim.

A TRACK RECORD is complete. It involves all the data - both positive and negative. And you have provided nothing except your own claims without any linked to evidence.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Why do you insist on demonizing those who simply do not believe as you do?
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It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

Not opinion, not belief... fact.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Unitedwestand13 said:
I think it is important to ask for facts and proof, but it is also important to ask what was the logical process a poster uses when he or she presents a arguement.
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How does one provide proof of an opinion, an idea, or something interesting that he/she read or heard somewhere that is pertinent or adds something else to think about in a discussion? Yes, if I choose not to ignore the really stupid trollish one-liners like "Bush lied - people died" or "All liberals are lunatics" or "Republicans hate black people", I might ask for evidence from a reliable source just to shut the person up. And there are times that a person cites percentages or statistics that just don't ring authentic, and I might ask where the person got their numbers.

But to ask for a link every time a person makes an argument is not only unnecessary, but really bogs down a discussion.

And I want to scream every time what would or could have been a really interesting discussion gets derailed by those stupid one-liners or somebody's ad hominem or personal insult or somebody's challenge to somebody's source or whatever--the discussion invariably then becomes about that instead of the intended topic.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ecofarm said:
It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

Not opinion, not belief... fact.
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Provide the verifiable evidence that your claim is fact.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

AlbqOwl said:
How does one provide proof of an opinion, an idea, or something interesting that he/she read or heard somewhere that is pertinent or adds something else to think about in a discussion? Yes, if I choose not to ignore the really stupid trollish one-liners like "Bush lied - people died" or "All liberals are lunatics" or "Republicans hate black people", I might ask for evidence from a reliable source just to shut the person up. And there are times that a person cites percentages or statistics that just don't ring authentic, and I might ask where the person got their numbers.

But to ask for a link every time a person makes an argument is not only unnecessary, but really bogs down a discussion.

And I want to scream every time what would or could have been a really interesting discussion gets derailed by those stupid one-liners or somebody's ad hominem or personal insult or somebody's challenge to somebody's source or whatever--the discussion invariably then becomes about that instead of the intended topic.
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ask for the sources that the link is based on, and judge the merit of those source.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Provide the verifiable evidence that your claim is fact.
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I've explained self evidence. I've explained how that self evidence prompts a survey experiment that establishes these rights as natural social objects via the scientific method. I've explained that inalienable does not mean inviolable, it means inherent to humans as a species.

Natural rights are a scientific fact. Sociology is not a scam, a trick or fake science. The founders, of course, had the intellectual adeptness to understand this. That some people are confused or otherwise left in the dark regarding the concept is sad and most are not bad people they're just ignorant.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

ecofarm said:
I've explained self evidence. I've explained how that self evidence prompts a survey experiment that establishes these rights as natural social objects via the scientific method. I've explained that inalienable does not mean inviolable, it means inherent to humans as a species.

Natural rights are a scientific fact. Sociology is not a scam, a trick or fake science. The founders, of course, had the intellectual adeptness to understand this. That some people are confused or otherwise left in the dark regarding the concept is sad and most are not bad people they're just ignorant.
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If you are referring to your recent posts in which you started out with a survey asking people a question - I pointed out to you that your results were not scientific evidence of the existence of natural rights no matter how scientific your survey itself was.

Do understand the difference between employing the scientific method to prove something and taking a survey?

You made this statement here today:
It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

Not opinion, not belief... fact.
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Provide the verifiable evidence that people who disagree with you on the belief in natural rights are
1- ignorant
2- detached from humanity
3- they lack empathy as humans
 
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