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Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

Do Governments Restrict Freedom or Provide It?

  • I lean right and govt restricts freedom.

    Votes: 18 64.3%

  • I lean left and govt restricts freedom.

    Votes: 8 28.6%

  • I lean right and govt does NOT restrict freedom.

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • I lean left and govt does NOT restrict freedom.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I am not American and govt restricts freedom.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I am not American and govt does NOT restrict freedom.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    28
AlabamaPaul said:
You can disagree as you like, but you can't deny the fact that our government was created by its people to serve the people...
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Right, and we are talking about what constitutes a "people."

I might not have been clear. I am not arguing that a society should be defined by artificial borders, rather only that it currently is being defined that way in practice.
 
JC_CT said:
Right, and we are talking about what constitutes a "people."

I might not have been clear. I am not arguing that a society should be defined by artificial borders, rather only that it currently is being defined that way in practice.
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The people is not hard to define. It's simply the citizens...
 
AlabamaPaul said:
The people is not hard to define. It's simply the citizens...
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Sure. Unless they have conflicting needs and priorities, in which case the task of serving the people becomes exponentially more complicated.

Case in point, the United States.
 
as to the OP, democratic forms of government are vile forms, and do not protect the individual rights of the people, democratic forms are about rights of the collective, and what they wish to create for themselves... majority rule.

democratic forms are very factious, full of special interest which buys and sells or our politicians for their own gain.

"when the people become uneducated and dont know what kind of government they have, it will turn into a democracy, followed by dictatorship"
 
US Conservative said:
Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?
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Both.

Government can be used to restrict freedom of course. For example, government can try to dictate who can marry who, government can put people to death for chewing gum, government can commit genocide, etc.

Governments can also obviously create freedom where it didn't exist before or protect freedom that already exists. For example, government could repel a Nazi invasion, a government could emerge in a country dominated by slavers, etc.

Everybody who thinks about it for a second would agree, I think, that both those things are possible.

Where it gets more controversial is when you drill down to specific types of governmental action where conservatives and liberals might disagree about whether a particular measure is increasing or decreasing freedom. For example, take the scenario of a kid who is born into famine, who has no real options in life except to scramble to try to get enough food until he dies from malnutrition at 5 years old. Most liberals would tell you that that kid has practically no freedom at all and that anything government can do that gives him more real options- like giving him enough to eat to live to be old enough to do something about his situation- increases his freedom. On the other hand, conservatives seem to define freedom not as the presence of options, but as a lack of government involvement. So, by their measure, government giving that kid food decreases his freedom.

The thing is, the conservative answer to that sort of scenario is sort of silly. They're just trying to define their way to an answer- they define freedom as a lack of government and then walk around feeling like they have proved that government can't increase freedom. But is that a meaningful definition? Who cares about "freedom" if all it means is a lack of government? If a person who doesn't have the freedom to actually do anything is maximally "free" according to a definition of freedom, then that definition seems to me like it could use some work. If freedom is to be an important concept, it seems to me that it needs to mean something useful. Some kind of ability to be what you want to be. Stripped of that core meaning, it would be a pretty empty concept IMO.
 
US Conservative said:
Although I understand, can we agree that THAT would depend on what govt system is being utilized? Note that the OP topic was govt in general, not a specific model.
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There are no generalities when discussing governments. There are only differing models. Some are created by a country's citizens, while others are forced on its country's residents. Others are something in between, and the roles are vastly different...
 
JC_CT said:
Sure. Unless they have conflicting needs and priorities, in which case the task of serving the people becomes exponentially more complicated.

Case in point, the United States.
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It's not all that complicated. How were slaves granted freedom? How did women gain the right to vote? How were eighteen year olds guaranteed the ability to not be denied a vote based on age?
 
AlabamaPaul said:
Governments are creations of a society, and a society is logically and sociologically defined as a group with similar beliefs. That has been lost with appointed judges now ruling from the bench...
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Good evening, AP. :2wave:

:agree: When an appointed judge can overturn the vote of a majority of people, things have gotten badly out of whack. Why is the Constitution being ignored? The people are still the deciders of how they wish to live in their State, and while there will always be some who disagree, that's life. The majority rules, especially when it comes to voting, but the Federal government apparently doesn't see it that way these days. Talk about overreach! :thumbdown:
 
AlabamaPaul said:
It's not all that complicated. How were slaves granted freedom? How did women gain the right to vote? How were eighteen year olds guaranteed the ability to not be denied a vote based on age?
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How were LGBT guaranteed equal rights to marry?
 
polgara said:
Good evening, AP. :2wave:

:agree: When an appointed judge can overturn the vote of a majority of people, things have gotten badly out of whack. Why is the Constitution being ignored? The people are still the deciders of how they wish to live in their State, and while there will always be some who disagree, that's life. The majority rules, especially when it comes to voting, but the Federal government apparently doesn't see it that way these days. Talk about overreach! :thumbdown:
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Greetings pg. I'm really disappointed in the direction of the country. At this point, there appears to be a real dichotomy within our nation, and I'm not sure how much longer that can last...
 
US Conservative said:
Fine but how can it mediate, beyond restricting as it sees fit to do such things?
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Every law passed is a meditation. Every court case is a meditation. Every law that's followed because of threat of involvement is meditation. Etc.
 
JC_CT said:
Yes, by restricting the many attempts by states to prevent it.
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Are the States subjects of the Federal government, or was it created the other way around?
 
They can do both. Was the government creating the interstate road system a "restriction of freedom"? No. It expanded freedom, the freedom to travel.
Was the espionage act in WW1 a restriction of freedom? Absolutely.
 
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