Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marriage?

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

No. SSM is a symptom of the same root social issues that have also caused our increasing inability to form and sustain successful marriages.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

celticwar17 said:

I'm playing a little devil's advocate.

I personally think marriage should be changed to a civil union... and any individuals can participate in the union.

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Why not continuing the word that everyone in society already uses to refer to this type of arrangement? What purpose is their to rewriting a thousand laws with one different term?

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

cpwill said:

No. SSM is a symptom of the same root social issues that have also caused our increasing inability to form and sustain successful marriages.

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And legalizing same-sex marriage will stem the tide, if you will, by letting more people form and sustain successful marriages. I'm glad we agree this is a necessary step!

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Why by the cow if you can get the milk for free.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

matchlight said:

"Separate but equal" refers to the unhappy doctrine the Supreme Court established in Plessy v. Ferguson in 1896. It upheld the right of states to discriminate by race in public accommodations, provided the accommodations were equal.

That doctrine has nothing whatever to do with homosexuals. Any state law that singles blacks out for disparate treatment creates a "suspect classification" for 14th Amendment equal protection purposes. That means it will be reviewed under the Supreme Court's "strict scrutiny" standard, which is extremely hard to meet. That is not the case with homosexuals. Laws that single them out for disparate treatment do not create a suspect classification. The Court has never held that such laws call for anything other than ordinary rational basis review.

As long as you and other posters here keep trying to claim that laws which discriminate against blacks stand on the same constitutional footing with laws that discriminate against homosexuals, I will keep pointing out how false and misleading that claim is. The effort by homosexuals to compare what few disadvantages they still have in some places to the serious, pervasive oppression American blacks had to endure even for a century after the end of the Civil War is dishonest, disgusting, and an insult to those blacks. It's like claiming that your ingrown toenail is just as bad as someone else's broken neck, because after all, they are both injuries.

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That is an extremely limited understanding of constitutional law you have here, but you get points for trying.

Riddle me this, however. You mentioned that the courts haven't yet recognized any protection for same sex marriage beyond a rational basis test. This is true. Now make an argument for what level of scrutiny it SHOULD have and why. You'll have trouble distinguishing it from Loving, and you'll end up with at least intermediate scrutiny, if not strict. Then, you can make an argument for why Brown should only apply to classifications covered by strict scrutiny. Gender isn't, and Title IX is essentially a prohibition on separate but equal for women in education. You've got some of the essential tools, but a good legal argument is never just about the surface level stuff and it's never just about the ideas that support your position.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Lutherf said:

Now I'm just confused. If there's a difference between "legal marriage" and "personal marriage" then why is there so much resistance to codifying that difference in law?

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Because it is a waste of money to do so. I am a frugal person. There doesn't need to be a codified difference in the law. Most people can figure out the difference.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Gringo allstar said:

Why by the cow if you can get the milk for free.

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You're right, men aren't concerned with settling down and raising families. We don't want to be fathers and good family men. We're just animals, right?

Or, perhaps, is this just you, and your personal desire to escape whatever relationship you feel stuck in?

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Paschendale said:

That is an extremely limited understanding of constitutional law you have here, but you get points for trying.

Riddle me this, however. You mentioned that the courts haven't yet recognized any protection for same sex marriage beyond a rational basis test. This is true.

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Not actually true. It's true that the Supreme Court has not formally recognized any higher level of standards. However:

1) Their actions in Windsor and Lawrence do imply a higher standard, based on their questions, wording of the ruling, etc.
2) Circuit courts have applied higher levels of scrutiny, and SCOTUS has not indicated this was unwarranted.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Deuce said:

And legalizing same-sex marriage will stem the tide, if you will, by letting more people form and sustain successful marriages. I'm glad we agree this is a necessary step!

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Ah, no. The data from the european countries where SSM has been law of the land for a couple of decades now suggests in fact that the opposite is more likely.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

roguenuke said:

Because it is a waste of money to do so. I am a frugal person. There doesn't need to be a codified difference in the law. Most people can figure out the difference.

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That's just silly. A marriage license in AZ costs $76 and everyone that wants to get married has to have one. That would be no different if the legal term was changed to "civil union".

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Deuce said:

You're right, men aren't concerned with settling down and raising families. We don't want to be fathers and good family men. We're just animals, right?

Or, perhaps, is this just you, and your personal desire to escape whatever relationship you feel stuck in?

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Touched a nerve did I ?? Actually the saying " why buy the cow " means your NOT stuck in a relationship and one is free to get sex where one can find it. You ever hear of the term " hook up culture" or better yet how about " friends with benefits"?? Where does marriage fit into this oh wise one?? So in your feeble attempt to take a shot at me for something that wasn't even directed at you, which you took personally, you missed the point completely... carry on.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

cpwill said:

Ah, no. The data from the european countries where SSM has been law of the land for a couple of decades now suggests in fact that the opposite is more likely.

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Post such data.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Gringo allstar said:

Touched a nerve did I ?? Actually the saying " why buy the cow " means your NOT stuck in a relationship and one is free to get sex where one can find it. You ever hear of the term " hook up culture" or better yet how about " friends with benefits"?? Where does marriage fit into this oh wise one?? So in your feeble attempt to take a shot at me for something that wasn't even directed at you, which you took personally, you missed the point completely... carry on.

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Why do you think men are only interested in sex? Don't you want to raise a family and be a good father?

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Deuce said:

Not actually true. It's true that the Supreme Court has not formally recognized any higher level of standards. However:

1) Their actions in Windsor and Lawrence do imply a higher standard, based on their questions, wording of the ruling, etc.
2) Circuit courts have applied higher levels of scrutiny, and SCOTUS has not indicated this was unwarranted.

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I wasn't going to bring Windsor and Lawrence into it yet. I think that they will ultimately be informative towards SSM being protected by intermediate or strict scrutiny. I admit, though, that I haven't read each circuit decision. Which ones have applied a higher standard? Perry likewise discussed a higher standard, but ultimately didn't come down on what level of protection SSM should get. I would be quite keen to read a case that went into the subject in detail. I am ultimately unsure of which level it should have. On the one hand, gender discrimination is an intermediate scrutiny issue, and SSM bans are often described as gender discrimination. But Loving went to strict and I lean more towards the inability to distinguish from Loving as the most compelling argument, rather than gender discrimination. The complete arbitrariness of prohibiting SSM suggests to me that any such law would fail a strict scrutiny test. There is simply no government interest that is actually furthered by the prohibition.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Lutherf said:

That's just silly. A marriage license in AZ costs $76 and everyone that wants to get married has to have one. That would be no different if the legal term was changed to "civil union".

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No, you don't get it. Numerous laws would have to be updated to refer to civil unions and also there's no reason to do that.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Deuce said:

No, you don't get it. Numerous laws would have to be updated to refer to civil unions and also there's no reason to do that.

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Well, we're pissing away tons of legislative and judicial capital on changing the term "marriage" to mean "everybody and the kitchen sink" right now so what's the difference?

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Paschendale said:

That is an extremely limited understanding of constitutional law you have here, but you get points for trying.

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You didn't try at all to explain just where you think what I said about the point of constitutional law I was discussing is inaccurate. In fact you can't, and your condescending remark is a lame, transparent attempt to hide that.

Riddle me this, however. You mentioned that the courts haven't yet recognized any protection for same sex marriage beyond a rational basis test. This is true. Now make an argument for what level of scrutiny it SHOULD have and why.

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Rational basis review. That is the usual level, and as you say, the Supreme Court, at least, has never suggested anything else would apply to a state law that excluded same-sex partners. If you think some form of heightened review applies, then you make the argument for it. I wouldn't even want to try, because that argument's a loser. Justice Kennedy, who's authored all three of the Court's "pro-gay" decisions, avoided any suggestion of heightened scrutiny in either Romer v. Evans or Lawrence v. Texas, and although his opinion in Windsor is garbled, he didn't seem to suggest it applied there either.

You'll have trouble distinguishing it from Loving

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Not in the least. In fact I just distinguished state same-sex marriage laws from the state antimiscegenation laws at issue in Loving, in detail, on a thread here a week or so ago. I'm not going to do it again just for you, but I don't think Loving is at all relevant to same-sex marriage. If you want to argue that Loving is relevant authority, make your case.

Then, you can make an argument for why Brown should only apply to classifications covered by strict scrutiny.

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Brown? I have no idea what case you're talking about, or what it has to do with strict scrutiny.

a good legal argument is never just about the surface level stuff

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I don't know what you mean by "surface level stuff"--legal arguments are about the law. The good ones are well supported and well reasoned.

and it's never just about the ideas that support your position.

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I don't know why anyone want to include anything in his arguments that didn't tend to support the position he was arguing for. I'm not about to argue against myself.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Lutherf said:

That's just silly. A marriage license in AZ costs $76 and everyone that wants to get married has to have one. That would be no different if the legal term was changed to "civil union".

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It isn't about the cost to the people when getting the paperwork, but rather the cost to the taxpayers given the amount of legal paperwork that includes the word/term "marriage" or "married". This means that all those legal documents would need to be changed, which would cost taxpayer money to do. That is the problem. That cost of taxpayer money just to appease people like you and others who don't want to share the term marriage because you wrongfully feel it should only be a religious term.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

I don't know for sure, but no.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Deuce said:

Post such data.

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:shrug:

....Research conducted in 2004 by Gunnar Anderson, a professor of demography at Sweden’s Stockholm University, seems to confirm the trend. Anderson looked at legal partnerships in both Norway and Sweden and found that in Norway, which legalized civil unions in 1993, only 1,300 homosexual couples registered in the first eight years, compared with 190,000 heterosexual marriages; in Sweden, between initial passage in 1995 and a review in 2002, 1,526 legal partnerships were registered, compared with 280,000 heterosexual marriages. In the Netherlands, gay marriage is actually declining in popularity: 2,500 gay couples married in 2001 — the year it was legalized — and that number dropped to 1,800 in 2002, 1,200 in 2004, and 1,100 in 2005. In 2009, the last year for which figures are available, less than 2 percent of marriages in the Netherlands were between same-sex couples....

Denmark was the first country to introduce recognition of same-sex partnerships, coining the term “registered partnership” in 1989. Norway followed suit in 1993, and then Sweden in 1995. Again, Stockholm University’s study seems to confirm the American trend. In Norway, male same-sex marriages are 50 percent more likely to end in divorce than heterosexual marriages, and female same-sex marriages are an astonishing 167 percent more likely to be dissolved. In Sweden, the divorce risk for male-male partnerships is 50 percent higher than for heterosexual marriages, and the divorce risk for female partnerships is nearly double that for men....

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..... Less likely to marry, more likely to divorce.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

pbrauer said:

Heterosexual marriage is currently in decline, do you believe homosexual marriage is one of the reasons for that decline?

Yes
No
Other

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only if hetero sexual marrage depends on gay people getting married to some one of the other sex

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Lutherf said:

Well, we're pissing away tons of legislative and judicial capital on changing the term "marriage" to mean "everybody and the kitchen sink" right now so what's the difference?

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We're spending that money because of right-wing "conservatives." Ask them why they are spending millions of taxpayer dollars on hiring outside counsel (coincidentally friends of the state governors/AGs, I bet) to fight a case they know they can't win. Ask them why they are spending millions of taxpayer dollars fighting individual freedom to make a choice that has no impact on others?

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

cpwill said:

:shrug:



..... Less likely to marry, more likely to divorce.

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If more than zero gay people get married, that results in more married couples.

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Paschendale said:

I like how infrequently you have anything to say about the topics we're actually discussing, and instead get by on whining about arguments from other threads where you and others were lying about other people's religions.

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Ok, that's ironic and psychotic. Good luck establishing a normal perspective about religion. A view without you as KING because you were a Jew (big ****ing deal) and one without you as KING because you're not Christian (like that makes ****ing sense, given your opposite claim regarding Judaism).

Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Lutherf said:

Well, we're pissing away tons of legislative and judicial capital on changing the term "marriage" to mean "everybody and the kitchen sink" right now so what's the difference?

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Actually, the waste of money here is coming from those who are trying to prevent same sex couples from getting married. There was no legally imbedded restriction on marriage based on sex/gender until those opposed to same sex marriage (and who recognized that support for gays and same sex marriage was growing, even back then) spent time and money to implement that restriction. Then those oppose fought against and are still fighting against, which wastes time and money, allowing same sex couples to marry even when everyone and their brother can see that it is inevitable. Same sex couples will be allowed to marry in every state in a short amount of time, likely a couple of years or less. It is those against same sex couples getting married who are wasting money here already. There is absolutely no reason to waste more, especially not when it is pointless to do so.