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Kids from rich families are more likely to succeed?

Economic Disparity = Education Inequality?

  • Yes

    Votes: 31 83.8%

  • No

    Votes: 6 16.2%
  • Total voters
    37
gunner said:
I think you're confusing a 'good' work ethic, with insurmountable challenges. For every 'land of opportunity' story like yours, there will be countless thousands, who had the very same, 'work ethic', but not the outcome. I'm not taking anything away from your lineage and achievements 'in the land of the free' but I would suggest its less than typical, in reality. Moreover, the 'good' schools and colleges are surely (I'm not going to suggest I'm an expert on the American education system) are beyond the reach of a certain portion of society. Some areas are so destitute, so impoverished, so crime ridden, that only miracles that happen in the movies--are the only way out. Income inequality really does have a massive baring on educational inequality, fact.

Paul
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actually, one of the more wonderful things about growing up in America is that one does not have to be affluent to receive an excellent education
kids raised in poverty can and do receive good educations in public schools
and by their efforts receive scholarships to attend public and private universities
and those who do not achieve academically at that level, there are loans which are available to them to attend those same institutions of higher learning
and to those who achieve even less academically, they have the opportunity to attend tech schools, again with costs borne by the state and thru government provided loans
all the student in the USA must do is achieve adequately enough in high school to be found academically eligible to attend one of those places of higher learning. the money is there for them to attend if they can meet the academic requirements

and despite that, many do not. the vast proportion of those who do not come from impoverished conditions. where education is not instilled as the path to economic success. because the parents are too stupid themselves to convey that reality to their kids

there are things that government does wrong, such as gerrymandering the attendance areas so that the affluent kids go to the good schools and the poor kids are forced to attend the weak schools. school administrations that do not know to let the teachers teach. but there is no valid excuse for a kid who knows they need to and who also wants to go to college not to do so. first, they must be able to dream it. but if they do, and they work towards that dream, they can get a good education
 
Kreton said:
I disagree on a lot of this.

1. Money does not dictate how a family may feel about the value of education. There are countless people living in poverty who understand the value of education and want nothing more than to be able to provide that education for their children and themselves. They may not have the money to ensure their kids can get the education needed to succeed, that doesn't mean they don't understand the value.

2. Money does not equal intelligence. And lack of money does not equal lack of intelligence.

Quite simply money = opportunity. Not just in education but in influence, opportunity, and chances.
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If you were around education you might see things differently. It is pretty commonly accepted amongst educators... what I said. It is backed up with millions of students as evidence as well. Even the few poor families that value education are not always intelligent enough to take advantage of it. I have some highly motivated parents that want their kids to succeed and their kids are just not that bright, and neither are the parents. That was an unspoken aspect of my argument that I thought would be already understood.

Opportunity is there for anybody that wants it.
 
Kreton said:
This is complete ignorance on your part. You clearly have no grasp on reality.

In order to get a quality education you need money. In order to make money you need a quality education. There are rare exceptions but largely that holds true. This becomes more and more true with each generation. There are millions trapped in poverty who go to work every day, they work hard, they are intelligent, but they are not given a chance to move up beyond a certain point because they lack the education. The education that they are intelligent enough to get, the education that they have the work ethic to achieve, but they cant obtain because their parents were poor. And since they cant move up beyond a certain point their kids are stuck in the same cycle.
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That is completely untrue, except for obvious exceptions here and there. I have taught at high end private schools as well as gang infested inner city schools, and in two separate countries.

At poor schools there were smart kids that did well despite challenges but the majority were either not interested in education AT ALL or were not smart enough to attempt an education.

At the rich school there were dumb kids that did not do well despite their parents money and there were kids that will skate by not caring just because their parents will get them in to better colleges, etc. later.

Your idea that poor people stay poor because they dont show up to work on time or dont work hard is rediculous. Just because you can state ****ty stereotypes from inside your little box doesn't make that garbage true. Most positions that pay well enough to escape poverty require degrees.
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In education, these stereotypes are stereotypes because they are generally correct.
 
Success breeds success. Ever seen the stats on the habits of wealthy parents. They spend more time reading, less time watching television. They eat as a family instead of tv dinner style, the differences between rich and poor families are stark
 
Bodhisattva said:
That is completely untrue, except for obvious exceptions here and there. I have taught at high end private schools as well as gang infested inner city schools, and in two separate countries.

At poor schools there were smart kids that did well despite challenges but the majority were either not interested in education AT ALL or were not smart enough to attempt an education.

At the rich school there were dumb kids that did not do well despite their parents money and there were kids that will skate by not caring just because their parents will get them in to better colleges, etc. later.



In education, these stereotypes are stereotypes because they are generally correct.
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If it is your opinion that if someone is poor it is because they are lazy and unintelligent, and if you are a teacher of some sort, I seriously feel bad for the kids at your school. You should not be allowed to teach.
 
Kreton said:
If it is your opinion that if someone is poor it is because they are lazy and unintelligent, and if you are a teacher of some sort, I seriously feel bad for the kids at your school. You should not be allowed to teach.
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That is obviously not what I was just stating because if that is your conclusion it is only indicating that you are a very poor student.
 
Kreton said:
Quite simply money = opportunity. Not just in education but in influence, opportunity, and chances.
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I think it's even more than this. More than opportunities, poor people have no buffer with which to weather setbacks and pitfalls. A talented young college student, only able to afford to go to school on scholarships, and a wealthier student of moderate intelligence both have to drop out for a semester due to a medical complication. Only one of them will be able to come back later. That's one of the big things that is ignored about wealth disparity. Wealth lets you bounce back from the problems that come your way. Those same problems keep a poor person down that an economically secure person can just deal with. This applies to many areas in addition to education.

Unitedwestand13 said:
What about the people who work hard and make good decisions but lose everything to a random act of chance?
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This, right here. That random act of chance is far more likely to cost someone everything when they don't have much to start with.

Cephus said:
Then life sucks, nobody ever said that life was fair, but what percentage of people are those? Just picking one or two examples out of millions who do not work hard and do not make good decisions and who can't point to a single life-changing moment really means nothing.
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You have your odds very much in reverse, and why does a single life changing moment that kicks you down matter but a lifetime of small pokes that you couldn't do anything about? Outside of the top down economics fantasyland, a person doesn't succumb to the trials they face because of a lack of moral fiber. They succumb because they never had the tools to overcome the trials in the first place. An illness, a bad investment, a family emergency, you or I can take those and get right back up. Someone struggling to pay their rent in the first place can't do that. And no amount of whining about "ghetto culture" (which is something that applies to only a very small minority of the hardworking poor people of this country) will change that.

justabubba said:
many risks can be insured against. and if they failed to exercise such insured coverage, where their decisions, to opt out of insurance, good ones

i will assume you are addressing those rare instances when unavoidable, unpredictable calamity happens ... and to that i would submit it happens to rich and poor alike
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See, people keep forgetting this. This kind of calamity is not that rare. And it doesn't take a single huge moment. Half a dozen small ones in the span of a year can do it just fine. And while you or I might have the means to insure against or to simply survive those problems, those who are struggling do not. That's why we just spent years trying to reform healthcare, because for those who can't afford insurance at all, a chronic illness can bankrupt them. Someone who starts out with plenty doesn't have to worry about that.
 
For wealthy people's kids, education isn't a requirement for "success".


For poor people, education isn't a guarantee of "success".


I put quotations marks around the word success because, what is, and isn't, is a matter of opinion. My parents brought in, between them, about 75K a year, near as I can tell, before they retired. My dad was a machinist for 30 years, and my mom was a secretary. Blue collar, lower middle family from South Carolina, here.

Between the wide and I, we bring in a tad over 100K per year, both in retail management. I am wealthier than my parents where at my age, for certain, even though I now live in CT, a VERY expensive state.

But I won't consider myself to be "successful" until I alone am bringing in 100K a year. Why that number? I have no idea. I truly don't. Maybe because that's what I feel I'm worth. Maybe because it's over double what my dad used to make. Who knows.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
What about the people who work hard and make good decisions but lose everything to a random act of chance?
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Working hard plays a relatively modest part. You can work really hard to produce something no one wants. It sucks, but it happens. Hard work is but one prerequisite.

"Good" decisions are the key. The better financial decisions you make, the less likely you are to "lose everything to a random act of chance." Success doesn't rely on pure chance. So if one's "good" decisions involve compulsive avoidance of debt and other large and long-term financial commitments, constant consumption decisions that allow one to always spend less than what is produced or earned, and builds assets over time, there is a minimized chance of being chronically poor.

The act of saving some of every dollar you earn means you always have greater net worth than before.

A decision deemed a "good" one based on how likely it is to produce desirable outcomes, all other things constant.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It is pretty simple. High income families generally are already more educated families and recognize the benefit to a good education. They also then pursue that better education. They also generally will be more intelligent and that is the very reason that they are more educated families pursuing higher education and better paying jobs. It is cyclical. A smart educated man generally marries a smart educated woman. They have children that are generally smart and eventually well educated. Round and round we go and the same exact thing is OPPOSITE for poor families. Reverse it all. Not as educated. Not as able to recognize the value of a good education. Get poorer paying jobs. Not as smart or educated man marries and conceives with not as smart or educated woman. Cyclical. I see it every year in the education profession.
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what he said-exactly
 
Cephus said:
But they're not. The reason so many schools in poor neighborhoods are bad is because the parents don't care. They don't get involved. They don't care about education. They don't instill a love of learning in their children. Most kids drop out before they graduate high school. None of that has anything to do with the amount of money someone has, but with the amount of interest they have. We just have this really stupid and destructive ghetto culture in place that teaches people not to care about getting an education because the government will give them a check and crime pays a lot more. They do it to themselves.
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It's rather difficult to get involved in your kid's school's activities when you work two jobs, neither of which are still yours if you take off time to attend a school event.
 
shrubnose said:
Obviously those who don't even try have zero chance of success.
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Yet we keep sending them checks. I know that you have wealthy kids that don't try either, but at least they're not on the taxpayer dime.
 
gunner said:
I think you're confusing a 'good' work ethic, with insurmountable challenges. For every 'land of opportunity' story like yours, there will be countless thousands, who had the very same, 'work ethic', but not the outcome. I'm not taking anything away from your lineage and achievements 'in the land of the free' but I would suggest its less than typical, in reality. Moreover, the 'good' schools and colleges are surely (I'm not going to suggest I'm an expert on the American education system) are beyond the reach of a certain portion of society. Some areas are so destitute, so impoverished, so crime ridden, that only miracles that happen in the movies--are the only way out. Income inequality really does have a massive baring on educational inequality, fact.
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I honestly don't see it. I don't think there's any such thing as an insurmountable challenge, where someone cannot improve their situation. Sure, they might not become a millionaire, but they can be better than they started out. Even a bad school is still better than no school at all. When these people drop out of school, when they get pregnant out of wedlock, when they try to have a family before they are financially ready for it, when they get involved in drugs and gangs and end up in prison, those are all things that are going to either negatively impact or ruin one's life. Those are bad decisions to make. If you make good decisions, if you stay in school, if you don't do things that will ruin your chances, if you get a job and keep a job and work hard, you are going to be better off than if you didn't and if you pass those lessons on to your kids and they to their kids, then your family line is going to climb out of poverty. It really isn't rocket science.
 
ashurbanipal said:
It's rather difficult to get involved in your kid's school's activities when you work two jobs, neither of which are still yours if you take off time to attend a school event.
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Then maybe you shouldn't have kids until you're financially ready for it? Personal responsibility is a bitch, isn't it?
 
Wealth comes from a number of factors of which the the most important ones are 1) Intelligence 2) Drive and 3) Cultural capital. If you have all 3 you are very very likely to become wealthy. If you have none of these you are very very likley not to end up wealthier than you started and quite probably far less wealthy.

Cultural capital is a term that refers to the cultural inheritance you get from your familly and includes attitudes to work, contacts and knowledge about 'how things really work'. My Jewish Great Grandfather arrived in the UK in 1905 from Germany. He had no money but he had intelligence and drive but he also knew where the real money was (ie the stock market) had contacts in business (from being a jew) and had the Jewish work ethic. He made enough money so that the next generation went to a Public school (which in the UK means a 'prep' school) which increased his cultural capital.

Now get down 3 generations to me. I have intelligence in spades and cultural capital oozing out of my pores. I'm jewish but intermarriage has made me indistinguishable from the British upper Middle classes. However I have little in the way of drive ( I have adhad) so I joined the Army instead of making a fortune ( I have 4 siblings so expecting to live off inheritance is not an option) however when I finally got to finishing my 22 years public service I had even more contacts and was able to use my cultural Capital to start a new business and I had gained a little more drive in my time.

Intelligence I inherited. the left may whine about it but quite clearly it is genetic. Drive i am not sure of. Cultural capital is clearly environmental but it is inherited socially rather than genetically.


If you took all the kids from my background and forced them to go to state schools then all that would happen was that our collective parents would have made sure that our local state school was very well funded with 'donations' and we still would have used our cultural capital and the end result would have been the same.
 
So Intelligent people have intelligent kids

People with cultural capital pass it on to their kids

The only variable is drive
 
APACHERAT said:
>" Down off the coast of Mexico, in small fishing villages that dot the shoreline, tourists will see the catch of the day being hauled in for market. In the market place you will see all sorts of vendors selling fish, lobsters, shellfish, and of course mexican crabs. The vendor of mexican crabs are known as "Crab-masters" and they keep their catch of crabs in large, shallow pans for the tourist to see and buy. Of course the tourists are curious and they ask the "Crab-master", "why the crabs with their long legs and claws just don't reach up and pull themselves out of the pan, flop into the gutter and make their way back to the sea rather than end up as an 'Avacado Crab Cocktail' later in the evening?"

And the "Crab-Master" will reply, "Well Senor', the Mexican crab has a characteristic that is indigenous to only the Mexican crab and that is, every time a crab reaches up to pull himself out to freedom, it is the habit of the other crabs to reach up and pull him back into the pan."

I say to you that in life we may run into some "Mexican crabs" disguised as "people" who may try to pull you down in life. But, I believe the Lifestream experience gives us a choice, we can either let those Mexican crabs pull us down into the "grungies" or we can hold onto them and pull them out of the pan to more life, more freedom, more happiness, to the best of life and I'm for that, how about you? "<

Mexican Crabs - A story by Jim Quinn, Founder of the Lifestream Basic Seminar - Cameron Freeman
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Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are the two biggest Mexican crabs I know.
 
shrubnose said:
Cephus said:
True, but people who don't even put on their uniform have no chahance of successnce whatsoever and that's the reason a lot of poor people are poor generation after generation. /QUOTE]



Obviously those who don't even try have zero chance of success.
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Obvious to whom? The people in the ghetto? It doesn't seem to be obvious there.
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Ghetto people generally have no cultural capital. They have no clue where real money is made and tend to think that sport or Music is the obvious choice (whereas it only applies to a tiny fraction of people) or crime on average a lousy return).

Inherited intelligence tends to be very low.
 
I agree that a bad school is better than no school. No matter the school, if you study and do well you will be given an opportunity to improve your financial future.
 
More money does not equal better education. If it did the exponential increase in college tuitions and public school spending over the past couple of decades would mean every student would be more educated, which is clearly not the case. Much of success is based on opportunities. A child of a successful business owner does not need to be a genius to get a good paying job on a fast track if they can take advantage of other people's connections. For many people all it takes is the right break. Business owners have a disproportionately low instance of college education. We tend to think outside the box. The majority of college students are in the box before they ever attend their first class. College is not about the student getting a better job, it is about long term financial obligation to the education system. It is a for profit system, and college loans are simply someone else's revenue stream. If you get a degree and it helps you land a good job, good for you. But the goal is achieved before you ever crack a book. The reason that people in more expensive colleges land higher paying positions has nothing to do with quality of education, it has everything to do with connections. Students who attend expensive colleges are there because someone who made a lot of money was able to put them there.
 
shrubnose said:
People who are born on third base obviously have a much better chance of scoring.
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Very true, but what is annoying is when they don't understand that being born on 3rd with the bases loaded and being advanced to home by a walk is a hell of a lot easier than stepping up to the plate and trying to hit a home run.
 
Brain on video games and soap operas vs brain on reading with your offspring and spending time together. What was a the question again?
 
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