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Kids from rich families are more likely to succeed?

Economic Disparity = Education Inequality?

  • Yes

    Votes: 31 83.8%
  • No

    Votes: 6 16.2%

  • Total voters
    37

TSAE

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Studies have shown that children coming from families of the top 10% of income generally had better test scores than children from the the lower 90% of income. Not only do they generally have better test scores, but also are much more likely to get into an elite college. For decades, parents from higher income families spend an exponential amount of money on learning expense for their children. These numbers are only increasing, possibly giving children from lower income families a massive disadvantage.

So my questions to you guys--the Debate Politics community--are:

Could the possible increase in educational inequality of children of different social classes be due to the wide economic disparity that we have today between the rich and the poor?

Do you think there should be more elite educational programs for children of the lower class?

Also, what other factors could possibly be involved?

Growing wealth gap may threaten education
BY KYLA CALVERT September 30, 2014 at 3:43 PM EDT
The idea that a college degree is a ticket to a middle-class lifestyle or that a good education can break generations-long cycles of poverty in a family is a lynchpin in stories of achieving the American Dream. But data show education is just one more arena in American life where gap between the rich and poor is widening.

The Associated Press reports today that education spending by the country’s wealthiest families increased their education spending by 35 percent during the economic downturn to $5,210 per child. During the same period, education spending per child stagnated at $1,000 in the other 90 percent of American households.

The extra dollars are going toward expenses like SAT and other tutors, private school tuition, childcare and preschool.

A growing gap between higher and lower-income students on measures like reading proficiency and college completion is already well documented, according to a New York Times report from 2012.

Data showing those trends in 2012 were only available through 2007 and 2008, before the economic downturn took hold.

A report out last year from the Hamilton Project also found a growing gap in the education spending of high- and low-income families.

“The most concerning thing is that there are initial signs that inequality is starting to bleed into social mobility. And social mobility is at the heart of the American experience,” Michael Greenstone, the co-author of the report and an economics professor at MIT told the Boston Globe.

Some Other Good Reads:
Money Makes A Difference, Even In Kindergarten
Inequality among students rises - Business - The Boston Globe
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/e...grows-between-rich-and-poor-studies-show.html
 
It is pretty simple. High income families generally are already more educated families and recognize the benefit to a good education. They also then pursue that better education. They also generally will be more intelligent and that is the very reason that they are more educated families pursuing higher education and better paying jobs. It is cyclical. A smart educated man generally marries a smart educated woman. They have children that are generally smart and eventually well educated. Round and round we go and the same exact thing is OPPOSITE for poor families. Reverse it all. Not as educated. Not as able to recognize the value of a good education. Get poorer paying jobs. Not as smart or educated man marries and conceives with not as smart or educated woman. Cyclical. I see it every year in the education profession.
 
>" Down off the coast of Mexico, in small fishing villages that dot the shoreline, tourists will see the catch of the day being hauled in for market. In the market place you will see all sorts of vendors selling fish, lobsters, shellfish, and of course mexican crabs. The vendor of mexican crabs are known as "Crab-masters" and they keep their catch of crabs in large, shallow pans for the tourist to see and buy. Of course the tourists are curious and they ask the "Crab-master", "why the crabs with their long legs and claws just don't reach up and pull themselves out of the pan, flop into the gutter and make their way back to the sea rather than end up as an 'Avacado Crab Cocktail' later in the evening?"

And the "Crab-Master" will reply, "Well Senor', the Mexican crab has a characteristic that is indigenous to only the Mexican crab and that is, every time a crab reaches up to pull himself out to freedom, it is the habit of the other crabs to reach up and pull him back into the pan."

I say to you that in life we may run into some "Mexican crabs" disguised as "people" who may try to pull you down in life. But, I believe the Lifestream experience gives us a choice, we can either let those Mexican crabs pull us down into the "grungies" or we can hold onto them and pull them out of the pan to more life, more freedom, more happiness, to the best of life and I'm for that, how about you? "<

Mexican Crabs - A story by Jim Quinn, Founder of the Lifestream Basic Seminar - Cameron Freeman
 
Studies have shown that children coming from families of the top 10% of income generally had better test scores than children from the the lower 90% of income. Not only do they generally have better test scores, but also are much more likely to get into an elite college. For decades, parents from higher income families spend an exponential amount of money on learning expense for their children. These numbers are only increasing, possibly giving children from lower income families a massive disadvantage.

So my questions to you guys--the Debate Politics community--are:

Could the possible increase in educational inequality of children of different social classes be due to the wide economic disparity that we have today between the rich and the poor?

Do you think there should be more elite educational programs for children of the lower class?

Also, what other factors could possibly be involved?

Have you ever spent time in chronically poor households? Have you ever spent time in affluent households? If so, did you notice any difference in behaviors (of the parents), communication patterns, family routines, disciplinary styles, etc., between the two?

Outcomes for children depend a lot on the environment in which children are raised, not just the quality of education. Poor people tend to be less able to create an environment conducive to learning and growing up mentally well-adjusted. That lack of ability is often what leads to the inability of the family to climb out of being poor. It's a cycle.

But that's just the household side. Concerning the education side, another factor is teachers' unions. Crappy teachers are sometimes let go because they're crappy, but unions fight for the crappy teachers to not be labeled as such to serve as a caution to other schools to not hire them. Schools that successfully got rid of bad teachers often have to give neutral references or are legally forbidden from stating truthfully why the teacher was let go. Eventually these crappy teachers move around from place to place until they end up in a school so desperate for teachers that they will take whatever it can get and won't fire them even if their performance is lacking in important ways. Guess where those schools are? Poorer districts. The cream rises and the crap sinks. The crap should just be flushed out of the educational system altogether and those people who were not cut out to be teachers should go get different career. But that doesn't happen. The teachers are protected at the expense of the students in poorer districts.
 
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People who are born on third base obviously have a much better chance of scoring.
 
It is pretty simple. High income families generally are already more educated families and recognize the benefit to a good education. They also then pursue that better education. They also generally will be more intelligent and that is the very reason that they are more educated families pursuing higher education and better paying jobs. It is cyclical. A smart educated man generally marries a smart educated woman. They have children that are generally smart and eventually well educated. Round and round we go and the same exact thing is OPPOSITE for poor families. Reverse it all. Not as educated. Not as able to recognize the value of a good education. Get poorer paying jobs. Not as smart or educated man marries and conceives with not as smart or educated woman. Cyclical. I see it every year in the education profession.

I disagree on a lot of this.

1. Money does not dictate how a family may feel about the value of education. There are countless people living in poverty who understand the value of education and want nothing more than to be able to provide that education for their children and themselves. They may not have the money to ensure their kids can get the education needed to succeed, that doesn't mean they don't understand the value.

2. Money does not equal intelligence. And lack of money does not equal lack of intelligence.

Quite simply money = opportunity. Not just in education but in influence, opportunity, and chances.
 
People who are born on third base obviously have a much better chance of scoring.

True, but people who don't even put on their uniform have no chance whatsoever and that's the reason a lot of poor people are poor generation after generation. They don't even try.
 
More money equates to greater odds of general stability, in terms of the kids not having to work to pull in extra cash, in terms of them being less likely to move around due to housing costs or for the parents to find jobs, the all around psychological perk of their being no insecurity about the future, etc. And of course richer people can afford better private schools. Anyone who would doubt that rich kids don't have a leg up on their lesser-moneyed counterparts is living in a dreamland. It really isn't up for debate.
 
True, but people who don't even put on their uniform have no chance whatsoever and that's the reason a lot of poor people are poor generation after generation. They don't even try.

Sometimes, those odds are stacked against someone so massively in height, breadth and depth; it doesn't matter what they do, the odds are insurmountable. So it's not necessarily about lack of effort.

Paul
 
True, but people who don't even put on their uniform have no chance whatsoever and that's the reason a lot of poor people are poor generation after generation. They don't even try.

I think that is more rare than many think. The majority of families in poverty are working jobs that keep them in poverty, cannot find work, or are unable to work. There are plenty of people who are just lazy, but that applies to the rich as well. The majority of people who do work hard and bust their asses for years dont get rich. And there are plenty of rich who are lazy as **** and and are living off the hard work of others.
 
Sometimes, those odds are stacked against someone so massively in height, breadth and depth; it doesn't matter what they do, the odds are insurmountable. So it's not necessarily about lack of effort.

But they're not. The reason so many schools in poor neighborhoods are bad is because the parents don't care. They don't get involved. They don't care about education. They don't instill a love of learning in their children. Most kids drop out before they graduate high school. None of that has anything to do with the amount of money someone has, but with the amount of interest they have. We just have this really stupid and destructive ghetto culture in place that teaches people not to care about getting an education because the government will give them a check and crime pays a lot more. They do it to themselves.
 
I think that is more rare than many think. The majority of families in poverty are working jobs that keep them in poverty, cannot find work, or are unable to work. There are plenty of people who are just lazy, but that applies to the rich as well. The majority of people who do work hard and bust their asses for years dont get rich. And there are plenty of rich who are lazy as **** and and are living off the hard work of others.

But they are unable to work or unable to find good jobs because they lack the job skills that they should have learned in school or in simple jobs starting out. They lack a work ethic. They lack basic responsibility. Just showing up on time, working hard and going above and beyond the call of duty is enough to work your way up the ladder, yet many poor people cannot even manage that, they remain in the same job for years and years and years because they lack both the drive and the skill to move up. And yes, as people move up the ladder, EVERYONE lives off the hard work of others. When you are in management, even as a manager at McDonalds, you're making a living off of the people that you supervise. The better job you do at supervising them, making them efficient and hard-working, the more money you make and the farther you go.

Not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.
 
Studies have shown that children coming from families of the top 10% of income generally had better test scores than children from the the lower 90% of income. Not only do they generally have better test scores, but also are much more likely to get into an elite college. For decades, parents from higher income families spend an exponential amount of money on learning expense for their children. These numbers are only increasing, possibly giving children from lower income families a massive disadvantage.

So my questions to you guys--the Debate Politics community--are:

Could the possible increase in educational inequality of children of different social classes be due to the wide economic disparity that we have today between the rich and the poor?

Do you think there should be more elite educational programs for children of the lower class?

Also, what other factors could possibly be involved?

Growing wealth gap may threaten education


Some Other Good Reads:
Money Makes A Difference, Even In Kindergarten
Inequality among students rises - Business - The Boston Globe
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/e...grows-between-rich-and-poor-studies-show.html


I had this discussion with a man I worked for that was worth $200 million, thirty years ago. He had a worthless, drunk, drugged, son that was going off to college. My boss got him in a very expensive, prestigious college and I asked him if he wasn't wasting his money because the kid was going to flunk out or screw up out. He agreed that was the likely scenario, but added that he sent him to that school hoping if he got through one or two semesters, he would meet other sons and daughters of wealthy parents and some of them would become business partners for the rest of the kid's life. My boss didn't show any concern whatsoever for education value of the investment. I think my boss was right and that is why people go to Harvard, Yale, Wharton , etc. See where most USA President's have gone to college for the last 100 years. It's not about passing grades or education, but meeting the right people.
 
But they are unable to work or unable to find good jobs because they lack the job skills that they should have learned in school or in simple jobs starting out. They lack a work ethic. They lack basic responsibility. Just showing up on time, working hard and going above and beyond the call of duty is enough to work your way up the ladder, yet many poor people cannot even manage that, they remain in the same job for years and years and years because they lack both the drive and the skill to move up. And yes, as people move up the ladder, EVERYONE lives off the hard work of others. When you are in management, even as a manager at McDonalds, you're making a living off of the people that you supervise. The better job you do at supervising them, making them efficient and hard-working, the more money you make and the farther you go.

Not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

This is complete ignorance on your part. You clearly have no grasp on reality.

In order to get a quality education you need money. In order to make money you need a quality education. There are rare exceptions but largely that holds true. This becomes more and more true with each generation. There are millions trapped in poverty who go to work every day, they work hard, they are intelligent, but they are not given a chance to move up beyond a certain point because they lack the education. The education that they are intelligent enough to get, the education that they have the work ethic to achieve, but they cant obtain because their parents were poor. And since they cant move up beyond a certain point their kids are stuck in the same cycle.

Your idea that poor people stay poor because they dont show up to work on time or dont work hard is rediculous. Just because you can state ****ty stereotypes from inside your little box doesn't make that garbage true. Most positions that pay well enough to escape poverty require degrees.
 
But they're not. The reason so many schools in poor neighborhoods are bad is because the parents don't care. They don't get involved. They don't care about education. They don't instill a love of learning in their children. Most kids drop out before they graduate high school. None of that has anything to do with the amount of money someone has, but with the amount of interest they have. We just have this really stupid and destructive ghetto culture in place that teaches people not to care about getting an education because the government will give them a check and crime pays a lot more. They do it to themselves.

You view the topic in a dichotomous manner, and this is simply wrong. You do not necessarily have 'two' distinct camps. There are many poor people from all over the world, who value education very highly--more so than the privileged ivy league grad who has been handed everything on a plate--because for that poor person, their whole future, and the future or their family may depend on their attainment. In addition, you fail to consider the overbearing nature of: depravity, crime, hopelessness etc.

Paul
 
In order to get a quality education you need money. In order to make money you need a quality education. There are rare exceptions but largely that holds true. This becomes more and more true with each generation. There are millions trapped in poverty who go to work every day, they work hard, they are intelligent, but they are not given a chance to move up beyond a certain point because they lack the education. The education that they are intelligent enough to get, the education that they have the work ethic to achieve, but they cant obtain because their parents were poor. And since they cant move up beyond a certain point their kids are stuck in the same cycle.

Any education is better than no education. Even a low-quality education is better than no education at all. It isn't going to take a single generation to end poverty, any more than it took a single generation for the poor to get where they are. To think otherwise is idiotic. However, the drop-out rate in most poor neighborhoods is in the neighborhood of 50%. You can't expect to get an education of any kind if you won't sit your butt in the damn classroom and learn. It's a process. It's not magic. It will take time, with each successive generation getting a little better off than their parents. Only a moron thinks it will be an instantaneous thing.
 
You view the topic in a dichotomous manner, and this is simply wrong. You do not necessarily have 'two' distinct camps. There are many poor people from all over the world, who value education very highly--more so than the privileged ivy league grad who has been handed everything on a plate--because for that poor person, their whole future, and the future or their family may depend on their attainment. In addition, you fail to consider the overbearing nature of: depravity, crime, hopelessness etc.

There aren't just two points on a line, it's a continuum. We can't talk about people around the world, we can only talk about people in countries where we have the schools, open and available for people to go to. People have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead. My parents weren't wealthy by any means but they worked their asses off to get me into good schools and pushed me to succeed. I worked my ass off and got good grades and did more than was expected. When I could work, I worked multiple jobs to make money to pay for my own college. I didn't get a single loan and my parents didn't pay a penny of it. I did it on my own because education was important to me. I am doing far better than my parents ever did in life and my kids will be doing better than my wife and I are.

Nobody said life was easy. Getting ahead means hard work and making good decisions. People who do, succeed. People who don't, fail.
 
There aren't just two points on a line, it's a continuum. We can't talk about people around the world, we can only talk about people in countries where we have the schools, open and available for people to go to. People have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead. My parents weren't wealthy by any means but they worked their asses off to get me into good schools and pushed me to succeed. I worked my ass off and got good grades and did more than was expected. When I could work, I worked multiple jobs to make money to pay for my own college. I didn't get a single loan and my parents didn't pay a penny of it. I did it on my own because education was important to me. I am doing far better than my parents ever did in life and my kids will be doing better than my wife and I are.

Nobody said life was easy. Getting ahead means hard work and making good decisions. People who do, succeed. People who don't, fail.

What about the people who work hard and make good decisions but lose everything to a random act of chance?
 
What about the people who work hard and make good decisions but lose everything to a random act of chance?

Then life sucks, nobody ever said that life was fair, but what percentage of people are those? Just picking one or two examples out of millions who do not work hard and do not make good decisions and who can't point to a single life-changing moment really means nothing.
 
True, but people who don't even put on their uniform have no chahance of successnce whatsoever and that's the reason a lot of poor people are poor generation after generation.
They don't even try.[
/QUOTE]



Obviously those who don't even try have zero chance of success.
 
What about the people who work hard and make good decisions but lose everything to a random act of chance?

not sure i understand what you are referring to, here

many risks can be insured against. and if they failed to exercise such insured coverage, where their decisions, to opt out of insurance, good ones

i will assume you are addressing those rare instances when unavoidable, unpredictable calamity happens ... and to that i would submit it happens to rich and poor alike
 
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There aren't just two points on a line, it's a continuum. We can't talk about people around the world, we can only talk about people in countries where we have the schools, open and available for people to go to. People have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead. My parents weren't wealthy by any means but they worked their asses off to get me into good schools and pushed me to succeed. I worked my ass off and got good grades and did more than was expected. When I could work, I worked multiple jobs to make money to pay for my own college. I didn't get a single loan and my parents didn't pay a penny of it. I did it on my own because education was important to me. I am doing far better than my parents ever did in life and my kids will be doing better than my wife and I are.

Nobody said life was easy. Getting ahead means hard work and making good decisions. People who do, succeed. People who don't, fail.

I think you're confusing a 'good' work ethic, with insurmountable challenges. For every 'land of opportunity' story like yours, there will be countless thousands, who had the very same, 'work ethic', but not the outcome. I'm not taking anything away from your lineage and achievements 'in the land of the free' but I would suggest its less than typical, in reality. Moreover, the 'good' schools and colleges are surely (I'm not going to suggest I'm an expert on the American education system) are beyond the reach of a certain portion of society. Some areas are so destitute, so impoverished, so crime ridden, that only miracles that happen in the movies--are the only way out. Income inequality really does have a massive baring on educational inequality, fact.

Paul
 
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