"Politcal Correctness" - False Victim hood or Real issue.

grip said:

Political correctness is the position of being excessively careful not to offend any group of people in society who are believed to have a disadvantage. So, in this definition, it's definitely associated with public pressure to limit freedom of expression to an uncommonly high standard. The problems begin to arise when the public opinion and standard, don't meet with realistic expectations, and where the punishment is overly severe because of group self righteousness.

PC is more about appearances and phony hypocrisy than about reality.

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I don't agree with your last sentence (though it's true in some cases) but I do agree with a lot of your first paragraph. Criticizing others for what they say has gone overboard in some cases. There's nothing people like more than to clutch their pearls and fall on the couch.

Of course, if it's something Democrats believe should be criticized it's considered being "PC" but there's a lot of pearl clutching and feinting that goes on the right....but of course the right would never call the political correctness.

The fact is...everybody to some extent believes in society policing language.

It's for real and it's for sissys...

No it isnt. Saying no veterans would ever see the cards is an outright lie. Read the rest of Foxs story. It says they are passed out too, to people who state they dont mind the religious content. I know the VA regs on this issue and I know why. Can you imagine if the local Mosque brought down some holiday cards and passed them out thanking Allah for hte vets servicec? Oh the Faux rage on that one. I know the right wingers require emotional stirring constant to maintin the high level of what ever it is, but this story is not true. Vets do get religious cards in the VA.

tres borrachos said:

No, it's not a "Faux spin". It's the VA's policy. And it's a ridiculous one, unless Christmas ceased to be a national holiday.

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mak2 said:

No it isnt. Saying no veterans would ever see the cards is an outright lie. Read the rest of Foxs story. It says they are passed out too, to people who state they dont mind the religious content. I know the VA regs on this issue and I know why. Can you imagine if the local Mosque brought down some holiday cards and passed them out thanking Allah for hte vets servicec? Oh the Faux rage on that one. I know the right wingers require emotional stirring constant to maintin the high level of what ever it is, but this story is not true. Vets do get religious cards in the VA.

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A VA official quoted the policy which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook:

"In order to be respectful of our veterans' religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."

An spokesperson for the VA clarified the policy Monday, which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook, by stating the following:

"In order to be respectful of our Veterans religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by Chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. After the review is complete, the holiday cards that reference religious and/or secular tones are then distributed by Chaplaincy Service on a one-on-one basis if the patient agrees to the religious reference in the holiday card donation. The holiday cards that do not contain religious and/or secular tones are distributed freely to patients across the Health Care System. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."

tres borrachos said:

A VA official quoted the policy which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook:

"In order to be respectful of our veterans' religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."

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In my opinion this policy is to stop the local mosque from distributing holiday cards too.

mak2 said:

An spokesperson for the VA clarified the policy Monday, which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook, by stating the following:

"In order to be respectful of our Veterans religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by Chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. After the review is complete, the holiday cards that reference religious and/or secular tones are then distributed by Chaplaincy Service on a one-on-one basis if the patient agrees to the religious reference in the holiday card donation. The holiday cards that do not contain religious and/or secular tones are distributed freely to patients across the Health Care System. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."

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mak2 said:

An spokesperson for the VA clarified the policy Monday, which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook, by stating the following:

"In order to be respectful of our Veterans religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by Chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. After the review is complete, the holiday cards that reference religious and/or secular tones are then distributed by Chaplaincy Service on a one-on-one basis if the patient agrees to the religious reference in the holiday card donation. The holiday cards that do not contain religious and/or secular tones are distributed freely to patients across the Health Care System. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."

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And that changed what exactly?

Nothing.

The people in the VA would be wiser looking inside their policies that allow patients to die than they are worrying about Christmas cards.

iliveonramen said:

I don't agree with your last sentence (though it's true in some cases) but I do agree with a lot of your first paragraph. Criticizing others for what they say has gone overboard in some cases. There's nothing people like more than to clutch their pearls and fall on the couch.

Of course, if it's something Democrats believe should be criticized it's considered being "PC" but there's a lot of pearl clutching and feinting that goes on the right....but of course the right would never call the political correctness.

The fact is...everybody to some extent believes in society policing language.

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My definition of PC in the last sentence is a about the extreme version.

Oh, the right is equally guilty of other types of partisan accusations and rants. They think they're more patriotic, capitalistically fair, morally superior- based on religious standards, more accurate in applying Constitutional interpretations, lump group judging all liberals and progressives etc. They can't find one single, realistically positive thing to say about Obama or his policies, especially ACA. I find that equally as ridiculous, as repressing free speech thru PC pressure. But it's always the extremes on both sides that are the most vocal.

Well it changed the point of the story and the Faux rage of that day, what ever day it was. The fauxites seen the line about the poor little girls card would never get to a vet and the fauxhead got all mushy and stirred up. Antohre lie, but keeps them stirred up till the next Fauxrage.

tres borrachos said:

And that changed what exactly?

Nothing.

The people in the VA would be wiser looking inside their policies that allow patients to die than they are worrying about Christmas cards.

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grip said:

A little ideology is not inherently a bad thing, but taken to partisan and emotional extremes it's very similar to religious zealotry.

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a little, yes. so long as one is prepared to review that ideology from time to time, but then that's liberal ideology....

tres borrachos said:

A VA official quoted the policy which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook:

"In order to be respectful of our veterans' religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."

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Is that censorship? If I send a CHRISTMAS card to a vet showing the baby Jesus that would be kept from the guy I sent it to?

Big Brother isn't watching, he has full control if that's the case.

Fearandloathing said:

Is that censorship? If I send a CHRISTMAS card to a vet showing the baby Jesus that would be kept from the guy I sent it to?

Big Brother isn't watching, he has full control if that's the case.

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It could be censorship. Or it could be political correctness run amok. Or it could be plain old fashioned idiocy. Take your pick. This is a governmental agency we're talking about here.

tres borrachos said:

It could be censorship. Or it could be political correctness run amok. Or it could be plain old fashioned idiocy. Take your pick. This is a governmental agency we're talking about here.

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I would say it has gone well beyond that if someone is intercepting mail.

If that is true, pack your things and use me as a reference at the border, make sure to mention any soft recreational drug use as it will help....in fact claim refugee status as you are fleeing the persecution of your medical rights. You will not need to cry or anything dramatic. Do not bring weapons and say you will not ever achieve happiness without learning French and being bi-lingual......

they never check afterwards anyway....

Fearandloathing said:

I would say it has gone well beyond that if someone is intercepting mail.

If that is true, pack your things and use me as a reference at the border, make sure to mention any soft recreational drug use as it will help....in fact claim refugee status as you are fleeing the persecution of your medical rights. You will not need to cry or anything dramatic. Do not bring weapons and say you will not ever achieve happiness without learning French and being bi-lingual......

they never check afterwards anyway....

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You owe me a new keyboard. :lol:

grip said:

1. That first line of definition, with the term 'excessive' was from Wiki, not me. According to your definition of 'political correctness' every subject is a matter of opinion, subjective and theory, including bigotry.

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How does my definition of political correctness determine the nature of "every subject"?

The PC phrase wouldn't be used so often in context if it weren't based in some form of realty or without meaning.

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I didn't say that political correctness wasn't "based in some form of reality or without meaning." I said that was a theory. A theory , as I'm using it, is "a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact." Do you agree or disagree that it is a theory? Why or why not?

2. I believe most public figures and anyone with access to an audience are being pressured to an unrealistic and one sided standard, especially white men who're are heterosexual or black male conservatives, but nobody is completely excluded.

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Who is the "one side" that you believe advocates this standard?

If ever a line of hyperbole were ever being used, it's this comment by you: "..until recently, it was a common standard to limit the freedom of people of color, women, same-sex couples and other marginalized groups to the point that they would be jailed, assaulted or murdered for simply looking at the wrong person." How recently have you seen these groups being jailed, assaulted and murdered for merely looking at the wrong person? Sure they weren't doing more than eyeballing? That doesn't hold water.

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Black men, women and gay people have all been historically jailed, assaulted and murdered for merely looking at "the wrong person." It's all but stopped for black men. It's getting less for gay people. It's still happening to a lot of women. It was a common standard for all groups 50-60 years ago which is recent in generational standards. Not hyperbolic at all.

3. The unrealistic expectations are from the public, in knowing the difference from slips of the tongue, from those repeatedly expressing negative opinions. If people overreact in severity to someones thoughts and words, there's no chance of ever rationally correcting them in a civil manner.

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What would you consider a "civil" approach to the matter?

It simply reenforces their hateful thoughts and makes them express their views in lockstep platitudes as sheep, instead of saying what's really on their mind. You wind up with a group think of phonies, afraid to express their true opinions.

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Some people do respond to what you call "political correctness" by doubling down on their "hateful" thoughts and becoming "phony" in order to survive, you are correct. At the same time, other people respond by curbing their language out of a genuine desire to consider other people. And still more people respond by reconsidering their point of view. As far as I'm concerned, only the last two groups are important. The former group usually goes the way of the KKK - into marginalization - as the new standard is normalized.

Nobody here is advocating the denigration of minority groups but to try and force people into speaking only the pretty, instead of expressing their heart felt views doesn't lead to the just and utopian society that you envision. It actually will do the opposite of causing frustration, deeper and more serious divisions, which shouldn't be the goal.

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I don't believe that you are advocating the denigration of marginalized groups. I do, however, recognize that criticisms of "political correctness" favor the privileged over the marginalized.

Pushing an agenda of socialistic thought control has historically never been proven to be a winner.

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I don't know about "socialistic thought", but the social pressure utilized by those who advocate what you call "political correctness" actually has a pretty good track record, historically. It's one the main tools human beings use to get each other to do what they want to do. It works.

Hard Truth said:

If you criticize any culture other than your own, you are branded as being a anti-Christian or UnAmerican.

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Only if you behave like an anti-Christian or un-American in the process.

If you criticize a life style you consider environmentally irresponsible, you are branded as as a "tree hugging enviro-fascist."

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Only if you take the environmental and tree hugging thing to an extreme level.....which many of the environmental types do.

If you criticize bigotry against minorities, you are branded as a "pervert," "terrorist sympathizer" or "race baiter."

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That one is an outright falsehood. It is born from the fact that so many of those on the left who do the race baiting, do it under false pretenses. For instance on the subject of illegal immigration....when a leftwinger lacks an intellectual argument, they accuse anyone who is against illegal immigration of bigotry against Hispanics. Another example is the Voter ID bill. They accuse anyone who is in favor of Voter ID laws as intentionally disenfranchising minorities. If you do not want to be referred to as a race baiter....do not play the race card when you cannot defend your point of view.

If you criticize US aggression abroad, you are branded as being a "appeaser," "terrorist sympathizer" or "surrender monkey."

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What US aggression would that be? We liberate nations. And we do not call you a surrender monkey unless you are French. :lol:

If you criticize behaviors which perpetuate poverty, you are told that you are "instigating class war.

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The democrat party just sees the poor as another demographic that they claim ownership of. If they keep them pacified with entitlement benefits without an expiration date, they will not leave the democrat party plantation.

Logicman said:

I used to work for one of the major food companies, and they tried to change Christmas to "Winter Holiday." I went down to HR and raised Cain. The head of HR said it was done so as not to offend anyone who has different beliefs. So I said I guess it's ok to offend the 70% of us who are Christians but not the 1 or 2 percent who might object?? Then I said, "Listen, Craig, you claim to be a Christian yourself. Why aren't you taking a stand against this nonsense? After all, Christmas is a federally-approved holiday." So I got him mad. What it ultimately took was my sounding the alarm to enough people who complained so that they changed it back to Christmas.

They did the same thing with Easter, renaming it "Spring Break."

They're a bunch of politically-correct a-holes. And a good many up in management who go along with some of these things are ***** Christians. Pansy-as*es.

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What many such companies eventually work out is that it not just about those who work there...it's also about their customer base. Sometimes they have to decide how much profit they want to lose in order to appease the politically correct crowd. The Cracker Barrel chain for instance pulled all of the "Duck Dynasty" merchandise from their shelves over The show's matriarch giving his opinion of homosexuality based on his religion. The uproar that followed from their customer base led to the products being returned to the shelves in roughly 24 hours.

tres borrachos said:

From the link about the VA Hospital:

Boys and girls at Grace Academy in Prosper, Tex., spent most of last Friday making homemade Christmas cards for bedridden veterans at the VA hospital in Dallas.

Fourth-grader Gracie Brown was especially proud of her card, hoping it would “make their day because their family might live far away, and they might not have somebody to celebrate Christmas with.”












“I’d like them to know they’ve not been forgotten and somebody wanted to say thank you,” Gracie told MyFoxDFW.com.

Gracie’s card read, “Merry Christmas. Thank you for your service.” It also included an American flag.

But the bedridden veterans at the VA hospital will never get to see Gracie’s card. Nor will they see the cards made by 51 other students. That’s because the Christmas cards violated VA policy.


later from the link:

A VA official quoted the policy which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook:

"In order to be respectful of our veterans' religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."


Please tell me that's a joke. I feel sick,

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I remember that. And as a veteran, I was offended by the policy.

mak2 said:

No, it is not a joke, it is Faux spin. From Fox's article (the rest of the story, as it were) "distributed by Chaplaincy Service on a one-on-one basis if the patient agrees to the religious reference in the holiday card donation."

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The one on one basis is a farce. The vast majority of veterans are Christians and do not need the potential censorship And even the relatively few non religious veterans are not going to be offended by a Christmas card with a religious theme.

mak2 said:

No it isnt. Saying no veterans would ever see the cards is an outright lie. Read the rest of Foxs story. It says they are passed out too, to people who state they dont mind the religious content. I know the VA regs on this issue and I know why. Can you imagine if the local Mosque brought down some holiday cards and passed them out thanking Allah for hte vets servicec? Oh the Faux rage on that one. I know the right wingers require emotional stirring constant to maintin the high level of what ever it is, but this story is not true. Vets do get religious cards in the VA.

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That's a ludicrous strawman argument.

ThePlayDrive said:

How does my definition of political correctness determine the nature of "every subject"?


I didn't say that political correctness wasn't "based in some form of reality or without meaning." I said that was a theory. A theory , as I'm using it, is "a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact." Do you agree or disagree that it is a theory? Why or why not?


Who is the "one side" that you believe advocates this standard?


Black men, women and gay people have all been historically jailed, assaulted and murdered for merely looking at "the wrong person." It's all but stopped for black men. It's getting less for gay people. It's still happening to a lot of women. It was a common standard for all groups 50-60 years ago which is recent in generational standards. Not hyperbolic at all.


What would you consider a "civil" approach to the matter?


Some people do respond to what you call "political correctness" by doubling down on their "hateful" thoughts and becoming "phony" in order to survive, you are correct. At the same time, other people respond by curbing their language out of a genuine desire to consider other people. And still more people respond by reconsidering their point of view. As far as I'm concerned, only the last two groups are important. The former group usually goes the way of the KKK - into marginalization - as the new standard is normalized.


I don't believe that you are advocating the denigration of marginalized groups. I do, however, recognize that criticisms of "political correctness" favor the privileged over the marginalized.


I don't know about "socialistic thought", but the social pressure utilized by those who advocate what you call "political correctness" actually has a pretty good track record, historically. It's one the main tools human beings use to get each other to do what they want to do. It works.

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Your "theory" is enforcement of what's "correct" as defined by whom?

The government? **** that, governments are corrupt. Who then and by what right do you do so? By what standard do you impose the re-definition of what's right? If I self identify as a "Pollack" then what right has anyone to say that I cannot?

BTW, even the most diehard PC's love Pollack jokes.....

Now that's ironic offsensiveness.

tres borrachos said:

From the link about the VA Hospital:

Boys and girls at Grace Academy in Prosper, Tex., spent most of last Friday making homemade Christmas cards for bedridden veterans at the VA hospital in Dallas.

Fourth-grader Gracie Brown was especially proud of her card, hoping it would “make their day because their family might live far away, and they might not have somebody to celebrate Christmas with.”










“I’d like them to know they’ve not been forgotten and somebody wanted to say thank you,” Gracie told MyFoxDFW.com.

Gracie’s card read, “Merry Christmas. Thank you for your service.” It also included an American flag.

But the bedridden veterans at the VA hospital will never get to see Gracie’s card. Nor will they see the cards made by 51 other students. That’s because the Christmas cards violated VA policy.


later from the link:

A VA official quoted the policy which is in the Veterans Health Administration handbook:

"In order to be respectful of our veterans' religious beliefs, all donated holiday cards are reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team of staff led by chaplaincy services and determined if they are appropriate (non-religious) to freely distribute to patients. We regret this process was not fully explained to this group and apologize for any misunderstanding."


Please tell me that's a joke. I feel sick,

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It's not but those that don't have a problem with it will also tell you that no one's right to say it have been liimited.

Logicman said:

Nope. I'm for giving them the RIGHT to say Merry Christmas. After all, Christmas is federally-approved holiday.

Anybody who is against that can go climb back under their rock.

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Nobody's "right to say Merry Christmas" has been infringed by anyone.

Conservative65 said:

You can call me one all day long. While I might not agree or like it, unlike Liberals who want to ban what they don't like, I won't try to stop you from using it.
That's the difference between you and me.

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:roll:

AlbqOwl said:

Saul Alinsky's RULE12: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

Political correctness is the current preferred tool of choice to accomplish Rule 12. For what purpose you say? Also from Alinksy:

"The organizer dedicated to changing the life of a particular community must first rub raw the resentments of the people of the community; fan the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues, rather than avoid them, for unless there is controversy people are not concerned enough to act …When those prominent in the status quo turn and label you an 'agitator' they are completely correct, for that is, in one word, your function - to agitate to the point of conflict." — from Rules for Radicals, pp. 116-117​

Alinksy claimed not to be a strong ideologue tied to any particular sociopolitical system as he acknowledged the excesses of everything from Jewish purges of Biblical times to the Inquisition to Communist and Nazi genocides. But he absolutely believed in turning people against the successful and those in power with the goal of destroying the establishment, dismantling the system, and stripping the power and property from the 'haves' so that a new Marxist style society could be established in its wake.

IMO, political correctness, as understood and utilized inour current times, is an implementation of this particular philosophy. It is misguided, it is evil, it is hateful, and it is wrong.

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Alinsky! Everybody drink!