Income Inequality

tuhaybey said:

If you are having trouble finding enough appliances approved for use in restaurants in your area, why not take a trip into the city to pick one up? I don't think you can blame the government if your county doesn't have a ton of stores that sell equipment for restaurants.

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You've missed the point entirely, and I've no interest in restating myself.

Dittohead not! said:

But, if I have a restaurant, I can't go out and buy the same sort of microwave I have in my kitchen at home? Really?

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It's unsafe, they are not built to withstand the load being placed on them in a business setting. Household microwaves are not made to be running constantly.

Dittohead not! said:

I read a post like that one and wonder just how much truth there is to it. If it's even partly so, then it would explain why it costs so much to do business.

The only logical explanation for rules like that is that the vendor who has a monopoly has it because of having purchased enough political influence to get his way, which, unfortunately, is how all too many decisions are made.

But, if I have a restaurant, I can't go out and buy the same sort of microwave I have in my kitchen at home? Really?

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The health inspector, when they eventually show up, will fine you, and cite you. Kinda like driving without a headlight. You can do it, but you'll eventually get caught. Ask me how I know?

Cephus said:

It's unsafe, they are not built to withstand the load being placed on them in a business setting. Household microwaves are not made to be running constantly.

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That's a matter of opinion. Had a 20 dollar walmart deal in a little mom and pop I worked at for years, no issues, till a health inspector noticed it.

Dittohead not! said:

I read a post like that one and wonder just how much truth there is to it. If it's even partly so, then it would explain why it costs so much to do business.

The only logical explanation for rules like that is that the vendor who has a monopoly has it because of having purchased enough political influence to get his way, which, unfortunately, is how all too many decisions are made.

But, if I have a restaurant, I can't go out and buy the same sort of microwave I have in my kitchen at home? Really?

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From what I understand, no. Not unless you want to get slapped with fines and/or shut down. Regulations are one of the major forms of protectionism still around.

KevinKohler said:

You've missed the point entirely, and I've no interest in restating myself.

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I don't see how. You were saying that in your area there is only one company that sells compliant appliances and whatnot. That seems awfully hard to believe to me, but even if that were so, all you'd need to do to address that would be to go to a city. Or use the Internet like everybody else does. Right? Obviously, there are thousands of retailers selling that stuff to choose from, no?

gdgyva said:

no you cant....but you dont have to buy new either....there are auctions all the time of companies that file BK, and their equipment comes up all the time

my wife owns a deli/market/catering business in DC

she bought a two year old oven in one a few weeks back....new 80k....she paid 33k

you have to be smart.....buying new is the fastest way to go broke

buildout on a new restaurant using refurbished/used equipment will still cost you a cool million.....

and we own sysco stock....have for years.....great dividends, and one of the companies who you can count on to just keep chugging on

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Is there, then, a rational reason for requiring a 33 K used, or 80K new, oven to be purchased, instead of the sort of oven we all have in our kitchens, or is it simply a way to ensure Sysco's profitability?

KevinKohler said:

The health inspector, when they eventually show up, will fine you, and cite you. Kinda like driving without a headlight. You can do it, but you'll eventually get caught. Ask me how I know?

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Then, the regulations being discussed are actually necessary for public safety? If that's so, why should there be a problem with them?

Dittohead not! said:

Is there, then, a rational reason for requiring a 33 K used, or 80K new, oven to be purchased, instead of the sort of oven we all have in our kitchens, or is it simply a way to ensure Sysco's profitability?

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the oven wasnt a sysco oven....i mentioned that because someone mentioned the company

when my wife bought the company with her brother 25 years ago, i didnt know anything about the food industry

i have learned a lot since then.....sysco being one of major investments

the oven was am industrial oven very similar to these

Best Ovens | Commercial Bread Baking Ovens

depending on your operation, sometimes a simple double decker convection oven is plenty

with her operation, she needed much more

gdgyva said:

the oven wasnt a sysco oven....i mentioned that because someone mentioned the company

when my wife bought the company with her brother 25 years ago, i didnt know anything about the food industry

i have learned a lot since then.....sysco being one of major investments

the oven was am industrial oven very similar to these

Best Ovens | Commercial Bread Baking Ovens

depending on your operation, sometimes a simple double decker convection oven is plenty

with her operation, she needed much more

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So, getting back to KevinKohler's post about excessive regulation, can we conclude that much of the cost attributed to regulation is actually the cost of commercial equipment that is needed for a business as opposed to less costly equipment that we have in our kitchens?

Dittohead not! said:

So, getting back to KevinKohler's post about excessive regulation, can we conclude that much of the cost attributed to regulation is actually the cost of commercial equipment that is needed for a business as opposed to less costly equipment that we have in our kitchens?

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the equipment is extremely expensive

but the regulations are also very costly

everything from how your exhaust has to be done, to the type of refrigeration you use, and what you are allowed to put into it

its a costly combination....the regulations require x, which you need equipment y to overcome

the restaurant business, or food business as a whole is probably one the hardest to get going, and one of the easiest to go broke in

gdgyva said:

the equipment is extremely expensive

but the regulations are also very costly

everything from how your exhaust has to be done, to the type of refrigeration you use, and what you are allowed to put into it

its a costly combination....the regulations require x, which you need equipment y to overcome

the restaurant business, or food business as a whole is probably one the hardest to get going, and one of the easiest to go broke in

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I get that. Now, since you're in the business, perhaps you know whether the regulations are necessary for public safety, or whether they are there for the benefit of some of the vendors.

Or, perhaps it is both.

for the benefit of some vendors?

i dont think so.....

everything required is for customer or employer safety....

food production can be very hazardous as many would guess

do i think they go overboard on some...yes

but i am the less government = better world type of guy

i want to know that when i eat out, the food we consume is not only tasty, but also safe to consume

so some regulation and oversight is needed...the question then becomes how much is too much

gdgyva said:

for the benefit of some vendors?

i dont think so.....

everything required is for customer or employer safety....

food production can be very hazardous as many would guess

do i think they go overboard on some...yes

but i am the less government = better world type of guy

i want to know that when i eat out, the food we consume is not only tasty, but also safe to consume

so some regulation and oversight is needed...the question then becomes how much is too much

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As a frequent customer of restaurants, I'm with you all the way.

And having been in countries that don't have the same sorts of regulations we have, I'm doubly certain that public health needs to be protected.

So, the original post by KevinKohler has little if any truth to it. Good to know.

todays news

Wells Fargo Worker Asks For $3B Raise - For Everyone

Wells Fargo Worker Asks For $3B Raise - For Everyone

he is a customer service rep

makes over $ 15 an hour.....

so 30k approx for annual....and he wants a 10k raise (25%) because the company is profitable

did he do anything special for the raise?

did he learn any new skills? improve some system in the bank?

wanting a raise is fine.....now how about EARNING it.....

just doing your job doesnt get you a 25% raise.....

tuhaybey said:

I don't see how. You were saying that in your area there is only one company that sells compliant appliances and whatnot. That seems awfully hard to believe to me, but even if that were so, all you'd need to do to address that would be to go to a city. Or use the Internet like everybody else does. Right? Obviously, there are thousands of retailers selling that stuff to choose from, no?

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Go on the internet right now, and try to order up a rated for food service, 4 burner grill and oven, the most basic thing any kitchen needs. You're gonna find....2, MAYBE 3 brands, in all the US, to choose from, and that's it. Better yet, to give you an even better idea, and an even more basic and essential item for ANY kitchen, try buying a griddle. Thousands of retailers? No, you can't USE the stuff retailers are selling, it's illegal. Those are for home use. ONLY.

Dittohead not! said:

Then, the regulations being discussed are actually necessary for public safety? If that's so, why should there be a problem with them?

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Because they are trying to apply blanket solutions to a system that is anything but uniform. If I want to open a little mom and pop breakfast joint, I shouldn't HAVE to buy a 900 dollar microwave that will see limited use. Nor should I HAVE to buy a huge 4 burner that sucks up nat gas like a 60's V8, when all I'm expecting to do is 800 a day in business. I can do that perfectly safely with an electric stove, lol. And for the record, what the government is saying, is that this crap they let the "rest of us" buy for home use is somehow NOT safe for heavy use, because it can't be used in restaurants?


Either **** is safe, or it isn't? I mean, maybe I'm feeding a family of 10 with my home depot stove?

gdgyva said:

the oven wasnt a sysco oven....i mentioned that because someone mentioned the company

when my wife bought the company with her brother 25 years ago, i didnt know anything about the food industry

i have learned a lot since then.....sysco being one of major investments

the oven was am industrial oven very similar to these

Best Ovens | Commercial Bread Baking Ovens

depending on your operation, sometimes a simple double decker convection oven is plenty

with her operation, she needed much more

Click to expand...

I'm not disagreeing with you, but, most will agree, the world was a very different place 25 years ago. I think milk was still healthy, then.

Dittohead not! said:

So, getting back to KevinKohler's post about excessive regulation, can we conclude that much of the cost attributed to regulation is actually the cost of commercial equipment that is needed for a business as opposed to less costly equipment that we have in our kitchens?

Click to expand...

Due to regulation. In order to be "rated for commercial use", there are, of course, fees to be paid, licenses to be gotten (fees to be paid), minimum productions to be met, etc etc.

Which effectively closes the market to other would be commercial equipment producers out there. In essence, forcing a monopoly. So, regardless of the fact that a commercial microwave only costs a little more to make than a non commercial, the markup is huge. Because they can. And because they have to. Why do they have to? There are fewer customers for the commercial microwave, than for the home use.

gdgyva said:

the equipment is extremely expensive

but the regulations are also very costly

everything from how your exhaust has to be done, to the type of refrigeration you use, and what you are allowed to put into it

its a costly combination....the regulations require x, which you need equipment y to overcome

the restaurant business, or food business as a whole is probably one the hardest to get going, and one of the easiest to go broke in

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And I hadn't even GOTTEN to that portion of it. The ventelations, the plumbing, all of which can ONLY be done by a SELECT few outfits. Need a new three bay sink? No problem, those only cost a couple hundred. Need it installed? Well now, NOW you have to go through one, and only ONE, plumbing company...at least in my area, anyway. And they just happen to also be union. Same with the hood fans and vents, the AC, the electrical, etc.

KevinKohler said:

Because they are trying to apply blanket solutions to a system that is anything but uniform. If I want to open a little mom and pop breakfast joint, I shouldn't HAVE to buy a 900 dollar microwave that will see limited use. Nore should I HAVE to buy a huge 4 burner that sucks up nat gas like a 60's V8, when all I'm expecting to do is 80 a day in business. I can do that perfectly safely with an electric stove, lol. And for the record, what the government is saying, is that this crap they let the "rest of us" buy for home use is somehow NOT safe for heavy use, because it can't be used in restaurants?


Either **** is safe, or it isn't? I mean, maybe I'm feeding a family of 10 with my home depot stove?

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I suppose if your restaurant has only 10 customers, you have a point.

but how do you make a living with so few?

Dittohead not! said:

I get that. Now, since you're in the business, perhaps you know whether the regulations are necessary for public safety, or whether they are there for the benefit of some of the vendors.

Or, perhaps it is both.

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Both.

It is the unintended consequence of safety. I'm not saying deregulate the entire market. But for ****s sake, a 900 dollar microwave? Especially for a CLASSY place, that simply isn't going to use it that often? A 50K oven just so you can sell fresh baked brownies?

At some point, we need actual, human to human communication to happen, one person speaking to another, voicing their intentions with item A or B, etc. Actual human decision making, based on individual situations and demands, not blanket policy.

I'm not saying to let the owner, who is a chef, try to rig up his own hood fan. He's gonna either suffocate his staff, or burn the place down. But, don't also tell him there is only ONE guy in town who is going to DICTATE to you how much that vent system is going to cost to instal. That's....R E T A R T T T E D.

I'm not saying to let every single kitchen out their have the option to buy a home depot electric range top stove. That's eventually gonna cause grease fires in places owned by short sighted idiots focused on quick profit. But to require that ANY place that needs an oven MUST use a 50,000 dollar oven...again....stupid. Maybe a place that is thinking about offering some fresh bread options doesn't NEED a 20K proofer along with that oven...maybe they are making low volume.

A lot of this came about from a genuine desire for safety, but an almost equal amount, it seems to me, came about from lobbyism, and the desire to retain american jobs. Hobart? Amana? These are american companies, with employees still in the US.

gdgyva said:

for the benefit of some vendors?

i dont think so.....

everything required is for customer or employer safety....

food production can be very hazardous as many would guess

do i think they go overboard on some...yes

but i am the less government = better world type of guy

i want to know that when i eat out, the food we consume is not only tasty, but also safe to consume

so some regulation and oversight is needed...the question then becomes how much is too much

Click to expand...

100%. I like not getting ecoli, shigela, or some other food born illnesses. And I think I deserve a reasonable eaxpaction to NOT worry about those things when eating out. But I also think that a fella SHOULDN'T have to be a millionaire, or go into EXTREME debt, to pursue their dreams in this country.

gdgyva said:

todays news

Wells Fargo Worker Asks For $3B Raise - For Everyone

Wells Fargo Worker Asks For $3B Raise - For Everyone

he is a customer service rep

makes over $ 15 an hour.....

so 30k approx for annual....and he wants a 10k raise (25%) because the company is profitable

did he do anything special for the raise?

did he learn any new skills? improve some system in the bank?

wanting a raise is fine.....now how about EARNING it.....

just doing your job doesnt get you a 25% raise.....

Click to expand...

Eh, normally, I'm with you.


But this is a bank, and I have a bone to pick with banks. They want their risks socialized, that knife should cut both ways.

Dittohead not! said:

I suppose if your restaurant has only 10 customers, you have a point.

but how do you make a living with so few?

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I messed up. Turn 80 into 800 in business.