Should the USA and Canada be one country?

Peter Grimm said:

So, in other words, Britain lost the American Revolutionary war in 1776 and they lost the war of 1812 to.... the United States.

Everything else you're saying are merely notional excuses. America won the wars, that's the indisputable fact, proven by the fact that we exist today as a nation.

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Given that the War of 1812 started with an abysmal failure of an invasion of Canada by the US and Canada still exists today as a nation, I'd say the US lost. Nice try, and good timing with the British being occupied with Napoleon in Europe and all, but it didn't work out well for yis. Still, there's the Battle of New Orleans to console yourselves with- happened after the war was over but take what you can get out of it.

Peter Grimm said:

We've been kicking butt since day one.

And if we're going to indulge in conjecture, I would submit to you that had the United States NOT won the two wars in question, then Canada and India would never have gained their own independence from the Brits. The American Revolution set in motion a chain of events that led to the end of the British Empire.

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Grand Mal said:

Given that the War of 1812 started with an abysmal failure of an invasion of Canada by the US and Canada still exists today as a nation, I'd say the US lost. Nice try, and good timing with the British being occupied with Napoleon in Europe and all, but it didn't work out well for yis. Still, there's the Battle of New Orleans to console yourselves with- happened after the war was over but take what you can get out of it.

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Yes, and they burned down the whitehouse back then... It was painted brown before that.

Oh, and Canada would have had up to the 52nd parallel, except they got the Canadians drunk and brought them 3 extra degrees north.

Grand Mal said:

Given that the War of 1812 started with an abysmal failure of an invasion of Canada by the US and Canada still exists today as a nation, I'd say the US lost. Nice try, and good timing with the British being occupied with Napoleon in Europe and all, but it didn't work out well for yis. Still, there's the Battle of New Orleans to console yourselves with- happened after the war was over but take what you can get out of it.

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Silly Canadian.

The War of 1812 didn't start over Canada. It can best be seen as a part of the Napoleonic Wars.

The US declared war with Great Britain because they were kidnapping Americans and forcing them to become British soldiers to fight Napoleon, they were illegally blockading American trade ships in the Atlantic sending supplies to Napoleon, and because the Brits were trying to prevent American westward expansion by arming the Indian tribes, trying to set up an Indian buffer state in the West.

This was done because the Brits were trying to maintain their commercial superiority to the Americans, they didn't want us to expand westward and they didn't want us to trade with the French.

During the war, Brits occupied part of Maine, and the Americans occupied part of Canada since Canada at that time was a British colony. At the war's end, borders returned to what they were before, and the Americans pushed westward having thwarted British attempts to contain us.

Peter Grimm said:

Silly Canadian.

The War of 1812 didn't start over Canada. It can best be seen as a part of the Napoleonic Wars.

The US declared war with Great Britain because they were kidnapping Americans and forcing them to become British soldiers to fight Napoleon, they were illegally blockading American trade ships in the Atlantic sending supplies to Napoleon, and because the Brits were trying to prevent American westward expansion by arming the Indian tribes, trying to set up an Indian buffer state in the West.

This was done because the Brits were trying to maintain their commercial superiority to the Americans, they didn't want us to expand westward and they didn't want us to trade with the French.

During the war, Brits occupied part of Maine, and the Americans occupied part of Canada since Canada at that time was a British colony. At the war's end, borders returned to what they were before, and the Americans pushed westward having thwarted British attempts to contain us.

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And in your wikipedia research, did you notice the things about American invasions being driven back by inferior forces? Have you found a way to spin the fact that 'borders returned to what they were before', vis a vis the fact that the war started with the US invading Canada? And then there was that bonfire party on Pennsylvania Avenue after the President of the United States fled town.
'Indian buffer'? Is that what they teach in American history classes? Damn. Doesn't matter what really happened, if you can just get the words right...

Grand Mal said:

And in your wikipedia research, did you notice the things about American invasions being driven back by inferior forces? Have you found a way to spin the fact that 'borders returned to what they were before', vis a vis the fact that the war started with the US invading Canada? And then there was that bonfire party on Pennsylvania Avenue after the President of the United States fled town.
'Indian buffer'? Is that what they teach in American history classes? Damn. Doesn't matter what really happened, if you can just get the words right...

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That's what they teach everywhere in the world, except apparently in Canada. The war didn't start with the US invading Canada. Canada didn't even exist as a nation at that time. The war started due to the facts I laid out, and we declared war against the Brits, not against Canada.

The aims of the Americans were 1.) Stop the Brits from arming the Indians out West 2.) Stop any Indian nation from forming out West that would hamper our westward expansion 3.) End the naval blockade against American merchant ships and 4.) Stop the Brits from kidnapping Americans and forcing them to serve in the British navy

The territory we now call Canada was incidental.

Now, we can talk about future plans to annex Canada, such as in the 1860's, because those did occur. But the War of 1812 was not about Canada, get your facts straight.

Peter Grimm said:

If the Europeans can form a union, if Germany can unify, if the Italian states can unite, if China can unite, if the United Kingdom can fly a single flag, then I say why not the US and Canada? It's not like such a move would be unprecedented

We have so much in common, it makes sense.

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Because neither the Canadian Government, nor the American Government would want to relinquish the power that would be necessary in order to compromise enough to form such a union. Both of our countries have enough differences that at this time it wouldn't work. You can have as many commonalities as possible, but it only takes one difference to break a union.

Peter Grimm said:

That's what they teach everywhere in the world, except apparently in Canada. The war didn't start with the US invading Canada. Canada didn't even exist as a nation at that time. The war started due to the facts I laid out, and we declared war against the Brits, not against Canada.

The aims of the Americans were 1.) Stop the Brits from arming the Indians out West 2.) Stop any Indian nation from forming out West that would hamper our westward expansion 3.) End the naval blockade against American merchant ships and 4.) Stop the Brits from kidnapping Americans and forcing them to serve in the British navy

The territory we now call Canada was incidental.

Now, we can talk about future plans to annex Canada, such as in the 1860's, because those did occur. But the War of 1812 was not about Canada, get your facts straight.

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Okay, you like wikipedia, here's their take...

"On July 12, 1812, General William Hull led an invading American force of about 1,000 untrained, poorly equipped militia across the Detroit River and occupied the Canadian town of Sandwich (now a neighborhood of Windsor, Ontario).[63] By August, Hull and his troops (numbering 2,500 with the addition of 500 Canadians) retreated to Detroit, where they surrendered to a significantly smaller force of British regulars, Canadian militia and Native Americans, led by British Major General Isaac Brock and Shawnee leader Tecumseh.[64] The surrender not only cost the United States the village of Detroit, but control over most of the Michigan Territory. Several months later, the U.S. launched a second invasion of Canada, this time at the Niagara peninsula. On October 13, United States forces were again defeated at the Battle of Queenston Heights, where General Brock was killed."

But the never-say-die Americans weren't finished...

"The early disasters brought about chiefly by American unpreparedness and lack of leadership drove United States Secretary of War William Eustis from office. His successor, John Armstrong, Jr., attempted a coordinated strategy late in 1813 (with 10,000 men) aimed at the capture of Montreal, but he was thwarted by logistical difficulties, uncooperative and quarrelsome commanders and ill-trained troops. After losing several battles to inferior forces, the Americans retreated in disarray in October 1813."

But hey, just get the words right...

BmanMcfly said:

Yes, and they burned down the whitehouse back then... It was painted brown before that.

Oh, and Canada would have had up to the 52nd parallel, except they got the Canadians drunk and brought them 3 extra degrees north.

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That'd be three degrees south.
Hey, anyone remember, "54.40 or fight!"?

A very interesting discussion on the topic:

A very interesting article: Maisonneuve | A More Perfect Union

Wiggen said:

That's the only thing I have against them. Well, that and Celine Dion.

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Celine Dion. :lol:

Peter Grimm said:

So, in other words, Britain lost the American Revolutionary war in 1776 and they lost the war of 1812 to.... the United States.

Everything else you're saying are merely notional excuses. America won the wars, that's the indisputable fact, proven by the fact that we exist today as a nation.

We've been kicking butt since day one.

And if we're going to indulge in conjecture, I would submit to you that had the United States NOT won the two wars in question, then Canada and India would never have gained their own independence from the Brits. The American Revolution set in motion a chain of events that led to the end of the British Empire.

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On the plus side, we are not going to have to waste a lot of time drawing you out here, are we? Modesty is not an issue.

As far as kicking butt goes, it happened during WW2, mainly because there was no real alternative, but aside from that we don't know about kicking butt because the US has never won a war that wasn't quite asymmetrical- where the US was significantly more powerful- or at least had the aid of powerful allies, strong enough to ensure victory.

The entry of France and Spain into the revolutionary war were key factors in the outcome, like it or not. The war of 1812 started in a pique of rage over the empressment of US sailors, but was soon regretted by many in the US. New England merchants were non-plussed, as they had enjoyed a profitable trade with Britain, and some continued to do so,smuggling goods as the war went on. British blockade ships stifled trade, and land battles were either lost or wasted men and resources to an indifferent outcome. A side benefit of the war, as seen by Washington, was the conquest of Canada, conceived as an easy grab. It was not, and American troops were forced back into their own country. The final indignity came when the US administration had to evacuate Washington, when it fell to British troops, who burned down public buildings before leaving. If your pride is so wounded by events of 200 years ago, you may call it a draw, but more than that stretches historical fact to the breaking point.

After that, the US took on Mexico, a smaller, poorer, weaker nation then in some degree of chaos. Next on the list was Spain, an empire in long decline, the low hanging fruit of the then nations that had something worth taking: some colonies in strategic places. In WW1, the US intervened towards the end, taking on a starving Germany, with the aid of the British and French empires. China and N Korea battle US (and UN) forces to a draw in 1953, N Vietnam effectively evicted the US in 1973. The learning curve has been steepening since, and in Afghanistan and Iraq, victory was declared, and evacuation achieved, before any more unsavory events marred the celebrations.

Empires have tended to go through phases of first being profitable and desirable, to not so much, to an outright drain on resources. Britain can be included here, and by the 1950s it was clear that the empire was going to end. India was already gone, and the dominions were in close, but independent status. There were a number of factors that led to this over time, the US revolution one hardly of note.

Should the USA and Canada be one country?

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only if we it means that we will adopt their health care system and foreign policy.