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Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

Are Neocons really conservatives?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 50.0%

  • No

    Votes: 14 50.0%
  • Total voters
    28
ecofarm said:
Economic freedom is expression?
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Yes, I think so. However, when you do these really short questions with no elaboration, I'm not sure how to interpret or respond to your questions.
 
Fiddytree said:
Yes, I think so.
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I agree.

However, when you do these really short questions with no elaboration, I'm not sure how to interpret or respond to your questions.
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If you agree economic freedom is a form of expression and you agree liberal social policy supports expression, the only aspect remaining is how foreign policy can support freedom. And thus we find ourselves at the fundamental ethical quandary: authoritarianism for the greater good; that is, how does libertarianism fit with interventionism.

In the case of foreign policy, I find the greater good in valuing the sovereignty of the people over the sovereignty of tyrants.
 
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Neoconservatives are the liberals with in the GOP.

neoconservative

: a former liberal espousing political conservatism
Neoconservative - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Neoconservative

>" A political liberal was just a liberal in the 1930s and 1940s, but the reaction to Stalinism prompted a new type of liberal to surface on the political scene, and those liberals supported the Cold War. The term neoconservative was used to describe this group, and many of them were Jewish and emerging intellectuals that lived in New York City. Most of them considered themselves liberal democrats in the 1960s when the New Left or hippie movement in the US became a voice in the movement for American reform...

In the beginning, neoconservatives were more concerned with domestic policy than foreign policy thus strongly opposed the counterculture movement of the 1960s, which they blatantly called anti-Americanism. The Vietnam War served as the catalyst that separated the Democratic Party into two factions: the anti-war faction and the war-supporting neoconservatives.

Today, neoconservatives advocate the use of American economic and military power to destroy enemies they perceive as threatening to American liberal democracy as well as liberal democracy in other countries. The change of focus initially occurred when the anti-war faction of the Democratic Party took control in 1972 by nominating George McGovern. The neoconservative faction rallied around Senator Henry Jackson and the "second age" of neoconservatism was born from the revolt. The focus was now on the Cold War.

President Lyndon Johnson's New Left policies pushed the Democratic Party to the left, so the intellectuals in the neoconservative faction became disillusioned with his domestic agenda. Ben Wattenberg's 1970 book, The Real Majority brought out the point that the majority in the party actually supported social conservatism. The book also warned the party that liberal stances on crime and social issues could be disastrous..."<

Definitions - The Daily Bell
 
APACHERAT said:
In the beginning, neoconservatives were more concerned with domestic policy than foreign policy thus strongly opposed the counterculture movement of the 1960s, which they blatantly called anti-Americanism. The Vietnam War served as the catalyst that separated the Democratic Party into two factions: the anti-war faction and the war-supporting neoconservatives.
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This author is really confused, since the Vietnam war was foreign policy, and protest against it were protests against FP, how in the world could any of it be associated with "domestic policy"?

Good grief, AR.....do you think at all about what you quote?
 
No, they are not and I've been saying it for a long time. They do not follow any of the traditional conservative values. They are not fiscally conservative, they spend money like drunken sailors, just like the liberals. They are not for small government, government has grown under neo-con control, just like it has under the liberals. They are not interested in keeping the government out of the lives of the public, just like the liberals. There is nothing conservative about the neo-cons, which isn't surprising because they came from disenfranchised Southern Democrats!

The neo-cons are just as liberal as the liberals are, they just wear a different hat.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Your words, not mine.

And you still cannot find ANY definition beyond catch phrases.
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I guess I just cain't express myself like you edumacated folks.
 
MildSteel said:
Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:

So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye? Are the neocons really conservatives?
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As it relates to the modern (let's say past 30 years) american politics and ideological definitions, Neo-Conservatives would tend to be more accurately described as Conservative than Liberal.

While aspects of the Neoconservative agenda of the past two decades have borrowed from liberal policy ideas, tactics, or princpiles for the most part they'd been primarily conservative. And even those things that were borrowed were typically used in line with some foundational conservative thought.

Fiddy's really the best to speak to this, though I think he generally (rightly so) focused primarily on the foreign policy views of Neo-Conservatives.

If you're speaking of the ones most typical thought of, ie those of the Bush years, I'd define a neo-conservative as:

An individual who domestically feels that the government can and should be used as a means of promoting and codifying traditional american values. As it relates to foreign policy, believes that free markets mixed with the spread of a western (and specifically american) stylized brand of democracy to chaotic/antagonistic states is tantamount to the security of the United States.

In more basic and stereotyped terms...

Domestically they took a more liberal approach (in terms of viewing the government as a tool to use as opposed to an impediment to remove) to pushing traditionally conservative goals. Internationally it becomes a bit more conflicted as there seems to be a chaotic mix in both liberal and conservative ideology in terms of the role and use of the military.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Again, your words...not mine.

And you still cannot find ANY definition beyond catch phrases.
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Would you like to declare victory and move on? I suggest you include a few smilies and the phrases "facts win again" and "I accept your concession" (or howmever youse articulate fancy pantses people do them there thangs).



WCH said:
Healthcare and DHS
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Down the hall, third door on the left.
 
WCH said:
Compassionate Conservatives.

They were so not conservative, they had to make up a new name.

The rapid expansion of government tipped their hand.
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Oh get of the high horse for freaking sake. Conservatives have always expanded government.. there has not been a "fiscal conservative no government" right winger ever. What the neocons did/do is what all conservatives have always done... meddle in areas of society that will give them as much influence, power and money as possible and they use government to do so.
 
ecofarm said:
Would you like to declare victory and move on? I suggest you include a few smilies and the phrases "facts win again" and "I accept your concession" (or howmever youse articulate fancy pantses people do them there things).
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Victory?

FFS, I would be satisfied just in seeing you post, link.....or define for yourself beyond what you have produced so far.

It is as if my challenge has been interpreted as a call to shrivel up.
 
MildSteel said:
Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:



So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye? Are the neocons really conservatives?
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What a surprise to see most of the comments come from died-in-the-wool socialists...considering it's about conservatives I wonder if they can know what they're talking about.

The problem with this piece is very simple. it's wrong. Dead wrong.

It uses the views of ONE self-described neo-con as the base of whether necons are really conservative?

I mean really, a base of one?


Since the phrase was coined in the late 70's, it has taken on confusing meanings, usually driven by people who are NOT neocon to the point it has become meaningless to me.....

When the Amerikcan left responds to my criticisms of Obama by accusing me of being a "Necon" in one sentence, and "Teabagger" in the next, then the word should lose all concept of even having a meaning.

When someone can document that Mr. Rubio speaks for a majority of "neocons" then I will give credence to what I see as another attempt to distort the term
 
It dates back to socialists and their desire to spread democracy. However ironic that might be.
 
ecofarm said:
Sorry to hear that, have you tried warmer temps?
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Keep proving my point with your sophomoric posts and infantile editing.....while you still shirk a simple challenge.
 
PeteEU said:
Oh get of the high horse for freaking sake. Conservatives have always expanded government.. there has not been a "fiscal conservative no government" right winger ever. What the neocons did/do is what all conservatives have always done... meddle in areas of society that will give them as much influence, power and money as possible and they use government to do so.
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Then 'all' politicians in this country are for expanded government, no matter what they say.

I heard a rant by Dylan Ratigan on MSNBC that proclaimed as much.
 
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WCH said:
Then 'all' politicians in this country are for expanded government, no matter what they say.
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They most certainly are. The era of buying votes makes it so no other way is viable for the "career" politician.
 
ecofarm said:
Your lack of ability to comprehend renders me not only dumb but a coward. Whatever shall I do against such might?
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Ah...shift the blame.
Cute.

You see, I understand what a neocon is, I have debated them going back to 2002, I know about Kristol and PNAC and their members, their ideology and their results. I can even link to a simple fairly well done summary of them with little effort. I don't have to play this game of "deny the opponent" you play....because it gets nowhere.

Again, lets see you offer anything beyond catch phrase......that is unless you want to play stupid again.
 
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