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Ferguson

Is Ferguson about...

  • Racism

    Votes: 16 19.5%

  • Police injustice

    Votes: 22 26.8%

  • Cultural differences

    Votes: 12 14.6%

  • Class Warfare

    Votes: 12 14.6%

  • Crazy people

    Votes: 26 31.7%

  • All the above

    Votes: 29 35.4%

  • Other

    Votes: 16 19.5%
  • Total voters
    82
Excon said:
Charging the Officer with his hands up?
Not believable.
His cohorts account sounded contrived. And we already know he lied when he said the Officer shot him in the back. So confirmed contrived.
Nor does one charge an Officer while surrendering.
Hands up surrendering? Unlikely.
The trajectory of the arm wounds will give us a better indication.
But as of now, hands up surrendering, when the reports are that he was charging, sounds contrived.
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His hands could've been raised in an aggressive manner to strike the officer. That's something that only the cop and Brown can ascertain.

I think his cohort is completely biased and not believable.
 
grip said:
His hands could've been raised in an aggressive manner to strike the officer. That's something that only cop and Brown can ascertain.
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Which is why I said "up surrendering" and not just up.
Up in an attempt to attack at the Officer when he got to him? Maybe. Far more likely given what we know.

Up as in shielding while charging? Not something that is likely, but you never know.


grip said:
I think his cohort is completely biased and not believable.
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Of course. He has already been discredited by lying.

Given what is currently known, I think it would be real sad to subject this Officer to a trial just to appease the community.
And then, even if they did, the venue would have to be changed.
 
grip said:
This is one of the most well written and sobering op-ed pieces I've read by a celebrity. I only posted the parts that seemed relevant before it got tl;dr.

It's not that we don't want to get it right, it's that we don't know how to frame the problem correctly, due to certain unsavory aspects about our society that could lead to a solution.

This is also endemic of a wider problem with the displeasure of the current governing system, similar to the civil protests and counter-culture of the 1960's. These situations could continue to spread and become more common (hope not), as the class/race/cultural distinctions become more disparaging.
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I voted other. "Stupidity". Those people rioted with absolutely no idea of what actually happened. Just hearsay. There's no excuse for that. At least they waited until after the trial to riot in LA.

As for the OP's op-ed I have a suggestion for income inequality. Step 1: Get rid of ALL welfare systems. Step 2: Give every single person in the US, 18 and older, 1 million dollars and set aside a 1 million dollar trust fund for every kid currently alive that can only be accessed when they are 18. This will only happen ONCE in our entire history. If they spend it all and fail at being able to provide for themselves then they are SOL. If others want to help them that's fine, but no government assistance period. No excuses. .....................Is this a serious suggestion? I'll let you decide.
 
If it turns out to be a legitimate shooting, or if more evidence comes out that it is then you'll see the media pivot the narrative to justified protesting because of historical racism and anti-police because their panties are all bunched up about cops wearing camo. You'll stop hearing about Brown altogether.


Lursa said:
If Brown is found to have been guilty of threatening the cop's life, or some other transgression that led to a legitimate shooting...how can this be about any of the poll choices?

The rioting may be but not the actual event....we have no idea what the facts are yet.
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Very inflationary. Gas will be $50/gallon.

Kal'Stang said:
I voted other. "Stupidity". Those people rioted with absolutely no idea of what actually happened. Just hearsay. There's no excuse for that. At least they waited until after the trial to riot in LA.

As for the OP's op-ed I have a suggestion for income inequality. Step 1: Get rid of ALL welfare systems. Step 2: Give every single person in the US, 18 and older, 1 million dollars and set aside a 1 million dollar trust fund for every kid currently alive that can only be accessed when they are 18. This will only happen ONCE in our entire history. If they spend it all and fail at being able to provide for themselves then they are SOL. If others want to help them that's fine, but no government assistance period. No excuses. .....................Is this a serious suggestion? I'll let you decide.
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Bodhisattva said:
Ferguson is about people not knowing how to peaceably protest... it is a shame that morons are hijacking Browns killing and rioting and it is a shame that morons are condemning police for trying to calm things down even if they are not doing a great job. The real condemnation should be the race baiters that are using race as an issue instead of demanding that protestors protest in common sense and lawful manners.
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How do you suggest the community realize that and get past it?
 
Kal'Stang said:
I voted other. "Stupidity". Those people rioted with absolutely no idea of what actually happened. Just hearsay. There's no excuse for that. At least they waited until after the trial to riot in LA.

As for the OP's op-ed I have a suggestion for income inequality. Step 1: Get rid of ALL welfare systems. Step 2: Give every single person in the US, 18 and older, 1 million dollars and set aside a 1 million dollar trust fund for every kid currently alive that can only be accessed when they are 18. This will only happen ONCE in our entire history. If they spend it all and fail at being able to provide for themselves then they are SOL. If others want to help them that's fine, but no government assistance period. No excuses. .....................Is this a serious suggestion? I'll let you decide.
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I agree, there's no excuse for rioters behavior, but if it keeps happening, we may want to know more about why than just saying they're evil and crazy?

There's not enough money to give everyone 1 million dollars. And I don't advocate equality in that manner, just equal opportunity. I think the system is only askew, when the very few leading can leverage it to their own liking too much. You'll know when that level is reached by the amount of dissatisfaction being displayed reaches unacceptable levels. Hopefully, more can be done to expand the middle class.
 
grip said:
I agree, there's no excuse for rioters behavior, but if it keeps happening, we may want to know more about why than just saying they're evil and crazy?
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Well, according to the op-ed its due to wealth inequality. :shrug:

grip said:
There's not enough money to give everyone 1 million dollars. And I don't advocate equality in that manner, just equal opportunity. I think the system is only askew, when the very few leading can leverage it to their own liking too much. You'll know when that level is reached by the amount of dissatisfaction being displayed reaches unacceptable levels. Hopefully, more can be done to expand the middle class.
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Sure there is! All we have to do is print the money!
 
Kal'Stang said:
Well, according to the op-ed its due to wealth inequality. :shrug:
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Not just wealth inequality but the legitimate causes of it. If it's a fair system, then there's no reason for any griping. Even in an equatable economy, there's always going to be spoilers. But if it's truly starting to become oppressive, then masses of people may feel the necessity to revolt.

Even if they're wrong, they may feel vindicated in which rational dialog and discussion of the issues would be preferable to violence?

Sure there is! All we have to do is print the money!
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I assume you're being facetious?
 
The Cap didn't talk about wealth inequality, he talked about poverty and prescribed the usual liberal prescriptions. But he didn't mention income redistribution etc..

The best point he made was about information or rather misinformation. He talks about the news media, takes a shot at Fox but also mentions MsNBC. He thinks that one of the solutions to poverty is to ensure people are getting good information. Can't argue with that.



Kal'Stang said:
I don't think that the OP's op-ed really cares about inflation. Nor anyone else that complains about wealth inequality.
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ecofarm said:
What culture?
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The culture found in every town, city or megacity. A whole bunch of societal issues are the cause of it, but there is a large seedy underbelly & undercurrent to our species. And the traits are generally the same: poor, generally uneducated, rough or no solid family situation, lots of run-ins with law enforcement and a forced upon lifestyle of living hand-to-mouth. In other words, the glass ceiling has them pinned to the ground. And when the screws are that tight on someone, the perception, whether legitimate or not, of someone further tightening the screw is a surefire way to get a reaction out of people who wholeheartedly believe they have nothing to live for because they don't have anything.

The same is true for people who can be considered "on the up-and-up." They've worked extremely hard to get where they are and because of someone else's ****-up they lose everything: job, money, house, car and sometimes a spouse & children. That's enough bad things combined to fully enrage a person.
 
Jango said:
The culture found in every town, city or megacity. A whole bunch of societal issues are the cause of it, but there is a large seedy underbelly & undercurrent to our species. And the traits are generally the same: poor, generally uneducated, rough or no solid family situation, lots of run-ins with law enforcement and a forced upon lifestyle of living hand-to-mouth. In other words, the glass ceiling has them pinned to the ground. And when the screws are that tight on someone, the perception, whether legitimate or not, of someone further tightening the screw is a surefire way to get a reaction out of people who wholeheartedly believe they have nothing to live for because they don't have anything.

The same is true for people who can be considered "on the up-and-up." They've worked extremely hard to get where they are and because of someone else's ****-up they lose everything: job, money, house, car and sometimes a spouse & children. That's enough bad things combined to fully enrage a person.
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Does the culture have a name?
 
ecofarm said:
Does the culture have a name?
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The name is irrelevant. The conditions that create the specific culture is the only legitimate focus.
 
Jango said:
The name is irrelevant. The conditions that create the specific culture is the only legitimate focus.
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We'll call it "The Mystery Culture"?
 
ecofarm said:
We'll call it "The Mystery Culture"?
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Again, child, the name is irrelevant. Only the conditions matter. Not labels, only conditions. Which I already laid out:

poor, generally uneducated, rough or no solid family situation, lots of run-ins with law enforcement and a forced upon lifestyle of living hand-to-mouth. In other words, the glass ceiling has them pinned to the ground.
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ecofarm said:
Culture of poverty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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That was an interesting read.


In economics, the cycle of poverty is the "set of factors or events by which poverty, once started, is likely to continue unless there is outside intervention."

The cycle of poverty has been defined as a phenomenon where poor families become impoverished for at least three generations, i.e., for enough time that the family includes no surviving ancestors who possess and can transmit the intellectual, social, and cultural capital necessary to stay out of or change their impoverished condition. Such families have either limited or no resources. There are many disadvantages that collectively work in a circular process making it virtually impossible for individuals to break the cycle. This occurs when poor people do not have the resources necessary to get out of poverty, such as financial capital, education, or connections. In other words, impoverished individuals do not have access to economic and social resources as a result of their poverty.

The people in the culture of poverty have a strong feeling of marginality, of helplessness, of dependency, of not belonging. They are like aliens in their own country, convinced that the existing institutions do not serve their interests and needs. Along with this feeling of powerlessness is a widespread feeling of inferiority, of personal unworthiness.
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It sounds like we're experiencing something similar to the Feudal System crisis of the late middle ages. Though not yet to that severity, but with many of the same causes - economic problems, wars, diseases, political instabilities and religious upheavals.
 
grip said:
If he was already shot, started to leave the car, then it doesn't make sense that he would turn and charge the car/officer?
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Don't make the mistake of presuming that someone who just committed a violent felony and whose getaway method was strolling down the middle of the street would have any sense.
 
TeleKat said:
I voted for both police injustice and crazy people. Because it is both. The shooting was clearly unjustified and people started protesting (rightfully so IMO). Then they got crazy about it and decided shoving TVs down their pants was a good way to get rid of police brutality.
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I don't understand how you can be so sure it was police injustice, when you weren't there and you don't really have the facts. There has been no trial whatsoever, and whether the shooting was justified or not, a riot is an unacceptable response. The rioting is 100% the rioters' fault.

Hundreds of people are shot every day, and we don't start rioting in the streets for each one, regardless of what the reason for the shooting was.

Civilized people should not take to the streets because someone of their race was shot in a dubious situation.

To the OP: I voted crazy people and racism.
 
Stupidity.

While marching and rioting for justice, the mob has now made sure justice cannot be served. All these people who know almost nothing about what happened are screaming, yelling, looting, burning and now decrying that the investigation is biased. How exactly can anyone pursue justice through due process of the law when only one outcome is acceptable to the mob?
 
I voted "Crazy People". These idiots - the rioters, looters, et al - are crazy. And they allow themselves to be spurred on by people we KNOW are crazy, like Al Sharpton. Sharpton is a race baiter, nothing more & nothing less. A crazy, maniacal race baiter. The idiots who are looting & rioting are whining, disgusting SOBs who are using this dead kid for their own gain, and anyone who thinks otherwise is crazy too.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I don't understand how you can be so sure it was police injustice, when you weren't there and you don't really have the facts. There has been no trial whatsoever, and whether the shooting was justified or not, a riot is an unacceptable response. The rioting is 100% the rioters' fault.

Hundreds of people are shot every day, and we don't start rioting in the streets for each one, regardless of what the reason for the shooting was.

Civilized people should not take to the streets because someone of their race was shot in a dubious situation.

To the OP: I voted crazy people and racism.
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Hey RA :2wave:

You're absolutely right. Rioting is never acceptable, doesn't matter how bad the situation is. Those shop owners did nothing...I don't understand why they have to be punished.

As for the shooting, we don't have all the facts. There does need to be a trial. I was too presumptuous in my first post, I see that now, and I'm willing to own up to that. However, the man was unarmed. Taking down an unarmed man with a whole arsenal of tools (pepper spray, tasers, batons, etc) shouldn't be that difficult. Shooting should always be a last resort and, it seems, these days it's a first resort. Obviously, if the officer's life was in danger, that's different. That's why we should have a trial to figure out what exactly happened. If there is any other way to subdue a suspect, then shooting him is entirely unjustified IMHO. Cops are enforcers of the law, not executioners. Doesn't matter if he robbed a store, raped a girl, or whatever. The purpose of a cop is to subdue the suspect, bring him in for trial, and then the courts decide what to do with them.

Also, when I selected "police injustice" I wasn't really talking about this incident in particular, but as an overreaching problem. I truly think that Ferguson was just the match that lit the powder keg.
 
TeleKat said:
Hey RA :2wave:

You're absolutely right. Rioting is never acceptable, doesn't matter how bad the situation is. Those shop owners did nothing...I don't understand why they have to be punished.

As for the shooting, we don't have all the facts. There does need to be a trial. I was too presumptuous in my first post, I see that now, and I'm willing to own up to that. However, the man was unarmed. Taking down an unarmed man with a whole arsenal of tools (pepper spray, tasers, batons, etc) shouldn't be that difficult. Shooting should always be a last resort and, it seems, these days it's a first resort. Obviously, if the officer's life was in danger, that's different. That's why we should have a trial to figure out what exactly happened. If there is any other way to subdue a suspect, then shooting him is entirely unjustified IMHO. Cops are enforcers of the law, not executioners. Doesn't matter if he robbed a store, raped a girl, or whatever. The purpose of a cop is to subdue the suspect, bring him in for trial, and then the courts decide what to do with them.

Also, when I selected "police injustice" I wasn't really talking about this incident in particular, but as an overreaching problem. I truly think that Ferguson was just the match that lit the powder keg.
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Morning, Kitty kat.

I wouldn't say rioting is never acceptable, I just don't think it's acceptable in this situation. I mean, if you REALLY want to riot, why not direct your anger and fury towards the police and the establishment instead of innocent people's businesses?

I think America is starting to have a real problem with vigilante rioters who want to take the law into their own hands. We saw it with Zimmerman and we're seeing it here. Everyone on the internet thinks they know what REALLY happened and everyone is too god damn impatient to wait for the investigation to be concluded. I think we as Americans as a whole need to take a chill pill and save violent discourse for the times we really need it.
 
grip said:
This is one of the most well written and sobering op-ed pieces I've read by a celebrity. I only posted the parts that seemed relevant before it got tl;dr.

It's not that we don't want to get it right, it's that we don't know how to frame the problem correctly, due to certain unsavory aspects about our society that could lead to a solution.

This is also endemic of a wider problem with the displeasure of the current governing system, similar to the civil protests and counter-culture of the 1960's. These situations could continue to spread and become more common (hope not), as the class/race/cultural distinctions become more disparaging.








ps. If I don't respond, it's because my PC is down and I'm on an old laptop that barely functions.
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I did a search before posting the article myself. I thought it was brilliant, and I voted "class warfare" and "political injustice."
 
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