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Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 49 55.1%

  • No

    Votes: 31 34.8%

  • Other

    Votes: 9 10.1%
  • Total voters
    89
What if...? said:
And on that note, the local opera just weathered a bit of a "scandal".

Times are hard for opera, it doesn't captivate as many people now, so attendance is down. San Diego has a top rate opera, but was going to be in the red next year. The board, which pulls down six figures, voted to end it. Because they would get their salaries for two years if the funds were available, and if they spent the money on the shortfall it wouldn't be there for them.

The company learned of this in the newspaper, after the fact.

A major "save the opera" campaign was started by the union and the company itself and enough was raised to keep the company going, on the condition the directors be replaced.

So in this case, personal gain of a couple of directors was considered more important than the jobs of the entire company and opera afficionados as well.
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It takes all kinds I guess. The exception certainly does not prove the rule. However, if opera is not a commercially viable endeavor in San Diego, I'm not sure what should be expected. Unless some benefactor can step in and underwrite the loss, it's a sign of the times. Vaudeville suffered the same fate.
 
ocean515 said:
It takes all kinds I guess. The exception certainly does not prove the rule. However, if opera is not a commercially viable endeavor in San Diego, I'm not sure what should be expected. Unless some benefactor can step in and underwrite the loss, it's a sign of the times. Vaudeville suffered the same fate.
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The point was the directors choosing to take their six figure salaries intact for two years instead of allowing that money to keep the company going for a couple more years.

Management taking short term profits over workers and customers.
 
Rainman05 said:
Some unions are still relevant today but the vast majority aren't.

And example of unions who aren't needed and are damaging today are public sector unions.
Another example of where unions are holding back progress is in manufacturing. If jobs can be automated, jobs should be automated.

An example of unions that are still needed or should exist if it doesn't is garbage collectors union for every garbage collecting company out there.
Basically those areas where technology doesn't have an answer and where jobs give a low quality of life and low work satisfaction. Basically jobs who are just jobs and not careers. Fast food joints should have unions. I'm sorry, a lot of people will scream "but mah hamburger". Yeah, you shouldn't eat those everyday anyway. But they should have unions because working conditions are awful. Starbucks, mcdonalds, wendys', kfc, all of them.

Truckers for instance are at a turning point. Until now, it may have been nice for them to have, if they didn't have, an union to represent them. But now, those that exist need to go away and no new ones formed because in about 10-20 years I think we'll see the first prototype of complete driverless car that can replace their job.
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And if YOUR job was to be replaced by a robot?
 
ocean515 said:
Of course the CEO's and shareholders are all about financial health of the company. The CEO has a fiduciary duty to perform his duties for the benefit of the shareholders. In general there is nothing altruistic about it. Do you think the public employee pension plans who invest in these companies give a rats ass how the employees are treated? They demand an ROI, period, or they will invest elsewhere. That goes for all shareholders.

The most profitable issue is the customer. Without them, there is no revenue, so I'm not sure where you're coming from their. The only ones not really concerned with profits are the employees. They want as much as they can get and they leave it up to management to figure out how to remain healthy and open.
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One would think that would be obvious, but too many companies don't do that. What you're talking about is long-term stability. Text book theory, not today's fast-paced reality. Too many companies are only concerned with the short-term... this quarter, and *maybe* next quarter. Maybe. Anything beyond that is too for out to worry about.

A perfect example would be cable and satellite and cell phone companies that put great emphasis on attracting new customers and virtually zero emphasis on keeping existing customers.
 
274ina said:
And if YOUR job was to be replaced by a robot?
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More power to them.
But I'd doubt a robot can do my job since it requires persistent learning and growing.
 
ocean515 said:
Of course the CEO's and shareholders are all about financial health of the company. The CEO has a fiduciary duty to perform his duties for the benefit of the shareholders. In general there is nothing altruistic about it. Do you think the public employee pension plans who invest in these companies give a rats ass how the employees are treated? They demand an ROI, period, or they will invest elsewhere. That goes for all shareholders.

The most profitable issue is the customer. Without them, there is no revenue, so I'm not sure where you're coming from their. The only ones not really concerned with profits are the employees. They want as much as they can get and they leave it up to management to figure out how to remain healthy and open.
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Greetings, ocean515. :2wave:

:agree: It's difficult to imagine a growing economy with a "low participation labor force" coupled with very high consumer debt. Where are overall future earnings supposed to come from, when "customers" just don't have the money to spend? Add in 50 million people on food-stamps just so they don't starve, and the picture gets even more grim for many businesses. :doh:
 
iacardsfan said:
The people have a responsibility to force change in the market when things are unjust, not the government. The market has more power than the government has when it comes to this, so it is up to them to shape a safe and prosperous workplace. If companies are unwilling to conform to the wishes of the market, it is there fault when they go out of business. I do not support compulsory membership though, because that is when the rights of the individual is infringed upon.
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You have that first part wrong and that's where the system breaks. It's the government people have a responsibility to change. Government regulates business.
 
What if...? said:
The point was the directors choosing to take their six figure salaries intact for two years instead of allowing that money to keep the company going for a couple more years.

Management taking short term profits over workers and customers.
Click to expand...

I understood your point. Obviously I don't know the circumstances. Perhaps the directors passed on other opportunities to run the opera and feel justified in being paid what they were promised before the inevitable takes place. Perhaps they are just douche bags.

Don't forget, management did figure out how to keep the operation going for some period of time, so people were employed. If there are not enough customers I don't see how they were shorted.
 
So lets see.

All jobs apprenticeships. All scamming "schools" shut down.
German labor laws for USA. 2 weeks paid vacation, 3 years materity leave, works councils, 1 year of pay to dismiss a worker for any reason.
German labour law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"At will" - right to work, banned.

if you apply for jobs and companies do not offer you a job, unlimited corp paid unemployment untill they do give you a job.

Labor unions totally reformed. No corrupt officials allowed to stay. (read Solidarity for Sale and its list of reforms)

National trade licences, so workers can move as needed. You can be a machinist, and bring your seniority from Boeing to a state job to a college job with no restriction.

Repeal 1946 slave act. All of it. (Taft Hartly)

1/3 of all board seats go the workers

Crossing a picket line is a felony. 5-10 years in Fed Prison.

Equal pay. Equal work. Federal law for pay and all benifits. (no more UAW (and others) selling out their class)

Computer people not exempt any more. Make programming a skilled trade.

That would all be a good start...............................
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Many people often claim that labor and trade unions are no longer needed, because "safety regulations, fair wages, days off, 8 hour work day, and child labor" have already been won. They claim because of this labor, and trade unions are no longer needed. My question is: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?
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Yeah, they've been replaced by low wages, part time work weeks, and wage theft. Yeah....the middle class and labor have won the war, time to go home folks...nothing to see here. We're living in a workers paradise.
 
radcen said:
One would think that would be obvious, but too many companies don't do that. What you're talking about is long-term stability. Text book theory, not today's fast-paced reality. Too many companies are only concerned with the short-term... this quarter, and *maybe* next quarter. Maybe. Anything beyond that is too for out to worry about.

A perfect example would be cable and satellite and cell phone companies that put great emphasis on attracting new customers and virtually zero emphasis on keeping existing customers.
Click to expand...

I agree there has been too much emphasis on short term strategies for gain, as opposed to long term growth. That has been fueled by a number of factors. As long as profits meet targets, companies are bound to the need to be responsive to the market place.

Don't forget to factor in the fickleness of the consumer. One months winner is next months forgotten has been. There is very little loyalty among customers. Whether that is being driven by the shortsightedness of the companies, or the other way around, is a reasonable question to ponder.
 
DVSentinel said:
Unions are nothing but a leftist tool to let the ignorant and often lazy masses to exert control over the successful. Just another way to make people into a flock of sheeple instead of them standing up and earning for themselves.
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Say how are your really smart and "educated" computer workers doing in your non union, "successful" system????????/

Seems not so well................LMAO


Revealed: Apple and Google’s wage-fixing cartel involved dozens more companies, over one million employees | PandoDaily

And the judge just tossed the $400 million settlement as TO LOW...........
 
ocean515 said:
I understood your point. Obviously I don't know the circumstances. Perhaps the directors passed on other opportunities to run the opera and feel justified in being paid what they were promised before the inevitable takes place. Perhaps they are just douche bags.

Don't forget, management did figure out how to keep the operation going for some period of time, so people were employed. If there are not enough customers I don't see how they were shorted.
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Surprisingly, when those who worked for or enjoyed the opera became aware of the issue their efforts bought the company another year. The director had paid some or firm $80k a year to increase business with no measurable effect.
 
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polgara said:
Greetings, ocean515. :2wave:

:agree: It's difficult to imagine a growing economy with a "low participation labor force" coupled with very high consumer debt. Where are overall future earnings supposed to come from, when "customers" just don't have the money to spend? Add in 50 million people on food-stamps just so they don't starve, and the picture gets even more grim for many businesses. :doh:
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Hi polgara

A company has to be very careful how it allocates it's capital. In the past, economic downturns presented opportunities for gain because market share was more readily available as the tide turned. Today, it's like trying to judge whether a traffic signal is going to be green four blocks before you get to it. Judge wrong, and it could be all over.
 
What if...? said:
Surprisingly, when those who worked for or enjoyed the opera became aware of the issue their efforts bought the company another year. The director had paid some or firm $80k a year to increase with no measurable effect.
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That's a good thing. Those with a real interest in opera are doing the right thing. Perhaps a new director is the next step.
 
Labor unions are still good, in every sector (even the public), in protecting worker's rights. Not everything is covered by OSHA. For example, making sure overtime is passed around equaly; vacation is distributed evenly and fairly; the punishment fits the infraction.
 
Rainman05 said:
More power to them.
But I'd doubt a robot can do my job since it requires persistent learning and growing.
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LOL, and when the robot does come along, or the Chinaman with your "skill set" for $.75 hr, will you fight for your job?
 
ocean515 said:
I agree there has been too much emphasis on short term strategies for gain, as opposed to long term growth. That has been fueled by a number of factors. As long as profits meet targets, companies are bound to the need to be responsive to the market place.

Don't forget to factor in the fickleness of the consumer. One months winner is next months forgotten has been. There is very little loyalty among customers. Whether that is being driven by the shortsightedness of the companies, or the other way around, is a reasonable question to ponder.
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Agreed. As far as customer fickleness, I think it's a little of both. Not sure which came first, though. That's probably a chicken-and-egg type question.
 
274ina said:
LOL, and when the robot does come along, or the Chinaman with your "skill set" for $.75 hr, will you fight for your job?
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It is clear to me you know nothing.
 
Rainman05 said:
It is clear to me you know nothing.
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And clear to me you are fine with replacing your fellow man with a robot. (because you fell for the I'm better BS) And your living in a dream world.

The TPP and the Chinaman will be coming for YOU TOO.................
 
ocean515 said:
Hi polgara

A company has to be very careful how it allocates it's capital. In the past, economic downturns presented opportunities for gain because market share was more readily available as the tide turned. Today, it's like trying to judge whether a traffic signal is going to be green four blocks before you get to it. Judge wrong, and it could be all over.
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I don't know how any businessman can accurately figure out what the future might look like, and what rules and regulations might be dreamt up next! No wonder so many are leaving for greener pastures elsewhere! I understand their logic, but I'm saddened by our loss of jobs here, because that affects us all in negative ways - higher unemployment, more having to rely on government assistance just to survive, and so forth. There are now more of them than those still working, and it cannot continue, IMO, because those who still have a job see their paychecks shrinking, and they can do little to change things! :2mad:
 
If we want a strong middle class in this country they matter.

Snip: Opposing view: Union jobs build the middle class

Middle-class families have been losing ground for more than a decade. Today, working people have a smaller piece of the pie than at any time in the past 50 years. During that period, the number of people belonging to unions also declined steadily; in fact, if you look at the decline of the middle class beside the state of union membership, those numbers are parallel. This should concern everyone who cares about a strong America.
 
polgara said:
I don't know how any businessman can accurately figure out what the future might look like, and what rules and regulations might be dreamt up next! No wonder so many are leaving for greener pastures elsewhere! I understand their logic, but I'm saddened by our loss of jobs here, because that affects us all in negative ways - higher unemployment, more having to rely on government assistance just to survive, and so forth. There are now more of them than those still working, and it cannot continue, IMO, because those who still have a job see their paychecks shrinking, and they can do little to change things! :2mad:
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For me, the figuring out the future is the part of the "fun" of it.

From my own experience, it's the rules and regulations that are the killer, since they are usually instigated by people who don't know the concept of "unintended" consequences. I sold my previous business because I grew weary of fighting inept lawmakers obsessed with PC dogma, that shouldn't have applied to what we were doing.

The investment company that bought it is closing down the plant here in California and moving production back to Indiana. I shed a tear because of the history of it, but more tears because of the really good people and their families that facility took care of for almost 30 years. It's closing is purely because of California regulations and tax policy. It's almost impossible to predict what might come next because so much of it is completely illogical and off the wall.
 
ocean515 said:
That's a good thing. Those with a real interest in opera are doing the right thing. Perhaps a new director is the next step.
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We raised a lot of money and sold out the last couple shows, but the lions share came from a single donor and replacement of the director was a condition.

She cited the failure to even contact other opera companies which have dealt successfully with similar problems. We had people from them fly in at their own expense to talk about how they went about it.

Had to go over the directors head to even hold additional meetings on the subject.
 
ocean515 said:
For me, the figuring out the future is the part of the "fun" of it.

From my own experience, it's the rules and regulations that are the killer, since they are usually instigated by people who don't know the concept of "unintended" consequences. I sold my previous business because I grew weary of fighting inept lawmakers obsessed with PC dogma, that shouldn't have applied to what we were doing.

The investment company that bought it is closing down the plant here in California and moving production back to Indiana. I shed a tear because of the history of it, but more tears because of the really good people and their families that facility took care of for almost 30 years. It's closing is purely because of California regulations and tax policy. It's almost impossible to predict what might come next because so much of it is completely illogical and off the wall.
Click to expand...

I really would like to hear more about the "utopia" that some envision for our future. It might enlighten us if they have some good ideas. All I hear is discontent with something that has made us into the greatest country the world has ever known, and it sounds more like wishful thinking than reality, but I haven't heard their arguments for changing things to be what they think is best. Why do I never hear why they feel we need a change? "Because we know best" isn't going to work without hearing some facts, since most of us passed childhood a long time ago, when those words had some meaning! Sorry....
 
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