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Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

  • Shot down

    Votes: 25 78.1%

  • Brought down (from inside)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Terrorist Act

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Mechanical Malfunction

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • We'll never know

    Votes: 2 6.3%

  • other - please explain

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • Total voters
    32
Dragonfly said:
Why?

That's pretty damned cold-hearted isn't it?

I know many people who must travel all over the world for business. A civilian/commercial airplane was possibly sot down.

How can you "not care"?
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1.What can I do about the shot down plane? Nothing

2.This is a the result of a plane flying over a war zone. People engaging in warfare tend to not trust aircraft flying above their skies.

3.Focusing on this issue is nothing more than a distraction.The mainstream media will try to blame or imply Russia had something to do with this.The right wing media will either blame this on Obama's incompetence for not wasting American lives and money on trying to stop Russia or claim this is some attempt bail Obama out of the other "scandals".
 
GreatNews2night said:
The remaining question is - how did the rebels operate a Buk missile launcher? It seems like extensive training is needed to operate one. It's a complex operation for target acquisition and it involves lots of electronics with a huge control panel. This is not something you simply aim and pull a trigger. Some sources say the crew that is necessary to operate a Buk unit must undergo two years of training. Maybe not that long, but it seems unlikely that rebels would be able to operate the unit on short notice (which either they received from Russia or seized from the Ukraine military - the latter possibility seems more likely since they had bragged about seizing one) without close assistance from Russian advisers, which then would look very bad for Moscow anyway even if they didn't provide the unit.
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A poorly trained gang of militia men would not be able to do a very good job of distinguishing between targets and would easily make mistakes. That would make the downing a collateral damage.
It would also point to questions concerning r2p.

What I found interesting was that the Kiev government had declared the area no.fly at low altitudes meaning below 32.550 ft. I wonder why it was left open to carriers to decide whether to risk overflight. It is not officially a war zone, but that makes me wonder, if we do not need to revisit civil air traffic control regulation.
 
joG said:
A poorly trained gang of militia men would not be able to do a very good job of distinguishing between targets and would easily make mistakes. That would make the downing a collateral damage.
It would also point to questions concerning r2p.

What I found interesting was that the Kiev government had declared the area no.fly at low altitudes meaning below 32.550 ft. I wonder why it was left open to carriers to decide whether to risk overflight. It is not officially a war zone, but that makes me wonder, if we do not need to revisit civil air traffic control regulation.
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The BUK can hit targets at over 70.000 feet, so a civilian aircraft is completely vulnerable at any altitude of which it might be capable. That makes a 32,550 feet minimum useless. In any case, we don't control the flight paths of other country's civilian air fleets over any airspace but our own. That's too bad, but that's how it is and is likely to remain. I can see a requirement for a flight plan made available to the public, though. At least then a passenger could make an informed decision about whether to board that plane or not.
 
jamesrage said:
1.What can I do about the shot down plane? Nothing

2.This is a the result of a plane flying over a war zone. People engaging in warfare tend to not trust aircraft flying above their skies.

3.Focusing on this issue is nothing more than a distraction.The mainstream media will try to blame or imply Russia had something to do with this.The right wing media will either blame this on Obama's incompetence for not wasting American lives and money on trying to stop Russia or claim this is some attempt bail Obama out of the other "scandals".
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Hmmm...

What can you do about the next election? Nothing. So I guess caring, or discussing it isn't an option?

I don't think the Malaysian plane did anything different than other planes have done. Technically I don't think there's a "war" going on. I'm sure things will change now, but hindsight is 20/20 right.
At any rate, it's still an international tragedy isn't it?

A distraction from what?
 
humbolt said:
The BUK can hit targets at over 70.000 feet, so a civilian aircraft is completely vulnerable at any altitude of which it might be capable. That makes a 32,550 feet minimum useless. In any case, we don't control the flight paths of other country's civilian air fleets over any airspace but our own. That's too bad, but that's how it is and is likely to remain. I can see a requirement for a flight plan made available to the public, though. At least then a passenger could make an informed decision about whether to board that plane or not.
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No, we do not control the flight of a plane from London to Malaysia. But the European Air Control does, at least through its members.

And yes, the Kiev no-fly was too low. But to allow airplanes to fly through the area was somewhat ify, I find.
 
joG said:
No, we do not control the flight of a plane from London to Malaysia. But the European Air Control does, at least through its members.

And yes, the Kiev no-fly was too low. But to allow airplanes to fly through the area was somewhat ify, I find.
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I think it's more than iffy, but I agree. It was an established corridor. It just makes me wonder why an established corridor remains an option when it's over a war zone. I think two AN-26's have been shot down in the past two weeks there. Someone didn't check or ignored the transponder in this instance, and that type of mistake would very typically be made by an ill-trained and trigger happy rebel. Just proves such war zones are no place at all for civilian aircraft.
 
Dragonfly said:
Shot down?
Brought down? (from inside)
We'll never know?
Terrorist act?

What do you think happened? And who did it?
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Pro-Russian insurgents or Russian personal shot it down. There is no serious doubt about that.
 
Dragonfly said:
In light of the most recent news, these seem to be the most likely of scenarios.
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Maybe but I'm an idiot for thinking out loud even though I'm probably right.
 
Peter Grimm said:
But I am smarter than everyone else.
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We know. You were clever enough to point out that it's incredibly hard to find aircraft wreckage in the ocean when its wreckage is in Ukraine.
 
Dragonfly said:
Hmmm...

What can you do about the next election? Nothing. So I guess caring, or discussing it isn't an option?
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I can vote in an election, I can pick who is election and hope enough people agree with me.I can say yeah or nay to ballot initiatives and hope enough people agree with me.

I don't think the Malaysian plane did anything different than other planes have done. Technically I don't think there's a "war" going on.
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What would you call a civil war?

I'm sure things will change now, but hindsight is 20/20 right.
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I would think that it would be common sens to not fly civilian aircraft over a war zone due to the fact it can be mistaken for a enemy aircraft and shot down. Aircraft drop bombs, fire cannons and all sorts of other weapons at troops or even transport troops.


At any rate, it's still an international tragedy isn't it?
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More like a accident or case of mistaken identity.

A distraction from what?
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V.A. scandal and illegals from central American coming into the country just to name a few.
 
jamesrage said:
I can vote in an election, I can pick who is election and hope enough people agree with me.I can say yeah or nay to ballot initiatives and hope enough people agree with me.


What would you call a civil war?


I would think that it would be common sens to not fly civilian aircraft over a war zone due to the fact it can be mistaken for a enemy aircraft and shot down. Aircraft drop bombs, fire cannons and all sorts of other weapons at troops or even transport troops.




More like a accident or case of mistaken identity.


V.A. scandal and illegals from central American coming into the country just to name a few.
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Your one vote does nothing. When was the last time a single vote made a difference? Never is the word that comes to mind. If you did not vote nothing would change. We'd still have Obama as president. Bush would have been elected. Clinton would have been elected. Your one non-vote would not have changed any of that.

There were no restrictions on flying over that part of the Ukraine. The flight path was approved, and not unique by any means.

There's a conflict for sure going on. Is it internationally known and called a "civil war" right now? It is truly classified as a war? I get that it' a semantics game, but since regular commercial air flights were not restricted from flying over the area I assume it was not considered a flat out "war". Again, I'll agree it's semantics basically. The people fighting and being killed in the Ukraine are surely viewing it as a war.

As far as the "distraction" thing.... I honestly thought you were above that kind of garbage.
That kind of rhetoric is for the conspiracy people and nut-wing righties.

Was the world cup soccer a distraction?
How about the Baseball All Star game?

You can call any world event a distraction if you wish, but that's simply ridiculous hyper-partisan crap.

It's a tragic world-wide event. Whether it was an accident (mistaken identity of civilian craft for an enemy craft), or an outright attack on a civilian target doesn't change what happened to 300 innocent people.

Do you have friends, co-workers, and/or family members who sometimes travel overseas? Do they sometimes fly to get from point A to point B?
Surely you must. So I fail to see how there couldn't be some concern for what's happened.

You might not be able to do anything about what's already happened, but that doesn't mean it should be brushed off as a "distraction".

That's just so arrogant and mean.
 
Dragonfly said:
Your one vote does nothing. When was the last time a single vote made a difference? Never is the word that comes to mind. If you did not vote nothing would change. We'd still have Obama as president. Bush would have been elected. Clinton would have been elected. Your one non-vote would not have changed any of that.
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Elections are determined by enough like minded people voting for a particular candidate. It doesn't matter if that was decided by one vote or a couple million votes. Mitt Romney lost because enough people did not vote for him.

There were no restrictions on flying over that part of the Ukraine. The flight path was approved, and not unique by any means.

There's a conflict for sure going on. Is it internationally known and called a "civil war" right now? It is truly classified as a war? I get that it' a semantics game, but since regular commercial air flights were not restricted from flying over the area I assume it was not considered a flat out "war". Again, I'll agree it's semantics basically. The people fighting and being killed in the Ukraine are surely viewing it as a war.
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Can you explain the brilliance of flying a aircraft where there is war or conflict going on? Is there some uncrackable "This is a civilian aircraft" beacon in order to distinguish it from a spy plane, military transport aircraft( or civilian aircraft being used for that purpose), gun ship, or bomber?

As far as the "distraction" thing.... I honestly thought you were above that kind of garbage.
That kind of rhetoric is for the conspiracy people and nut-wing righties.
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There is nothing conspiratorial about it.

Was the world cup soccer a distraction?
How about the Baseball All Star game?
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Yes those are distractions.The Romans used games to keep the masses distracted and occupied.Sports is no different today.

You can call any world event a distraction if you wish, but that's simply ridiculous hyper-partisan crap. It's a tragic world-wide event. Whether it was an accident (mistaken identity of civilian craft for an enemy craft), or an outright attack on a civilian target doesn't change what happened to 300 innocent people.
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It is not a world event.It is a plane that flew over a war zone getting shot down.Flying a plane over a war zone amounts to running across a busy highway, trying to preach Christianity in a die hard Muslim or communist country, sticking your finger in a light socket, running with scissors, trying to do trick spins with a loaded pistol with the safety off, opening a cup of hot coffee in your lap, smoking cigarettes, texting while driving or some other idiotic thing.
 
I think Putin really ****ed up this time.
 
American said:
Typically he doesn't, but this may end up having a smoking gun. We'll see how things develop.
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Well, I'm pretty sure they've removed the smoking gun already. You can safely bet your entire life savings on the fact that any fragments of a missile have more than probably been already removed from the crash site, and don't forget that the black boxes have been sent to Russia, a country that had no legitimate reason to have them - it wasn't their airline, the flight did not originate or was supposed to end in Russia, the plane didn't crash in Russia, there were no Russians aboard the plane... why in the hell did the black boxes get taken to Russia? Obviously, because they are erasing all traces of a smoking gun, which in my book is akin to a huge red flag to establish the idea that Russia is a significantly guilty party in this tragedy.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Well, I'm pretty sure they've removed the smoking gun already. You can safely bet your entire life savings on the fact that any fragments of a missile have more than probably been already removed from the crash site, and don't forget that the black boxes have been sent to Russia, a country that had no legitimate reason to have them - it wasn't their airline, the flight did not originate or was supposed to end in Russia, the plane didn't crash in Russia, there were no Russians aboard the plane... why in the hell did the black boxes get taken to Russia? Obviously, because they are erasing all traces of a smoking gun, which in my book is akin to a huge red flag to establish the idea that Russia is a significantly guilty party in this tragedy.
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Well with the Dummkopf-in-Chief you may have a point, but they could remove all fragments of a missile in a couple days, if there are any fragments there.
 
American said:
Well with the Dummkopf-in-Chief you may have a point, but they could remove all fragments of a missile in a couple days, if there are any fragments there.
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Still, there is a growing amount of rather convincing circumstantial evidence:

http://news.yahoo.com/us-outlines-case-against-russia-downed-plane-185610994--politics.html

Video of an SA-11 launcher, with one of its missiles missing and leaving the likely launch site, has been authenticated, he said.
An Associated Press journalist saw a missile launcher in rebel-held territory close to the crash site just hours before the plane was brought down Thursday.
"There's a buildup of extraordinary circumstantial evidence," Kerry said. "We picked up the imagery of this launch. We know the trajectory. We know where it came from. We know the timing, and it was exactly at the time that this aircraft disappeared from the radar. We also know from voice identification that the separatists were bragging about shooting it down afterward."
In one set of calls, said by Ukrainian security services to have been recorded shortly after the plane was hit, a prominent rebel commander, Igor Bezler, tells a Russian military intelligence officer that rebel forces shot down a plane.
Shortly before Kerry's television appearances, the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, released a statement saying experts had authenticated the calls.

"Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by intelligence community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists," the statement said.
A new set of recordings apparently made Friday also appears to implicate rebels in an attempted cover-up at the crash site.
In one exchange, a man identified as the leader of the rebel Vostok Battalion Alexander Khodakovsky states that two recording devices are being held by the head of intelligence of the insurgency's military commander. The commander is then heard to order the militiaman to ensure no outsiders, including an international observation team near the crash site at the reported time of the call, get hold of any material.
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