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Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

Is homosexuality "normak" and "natural"?


  • Total voters
    116
Thats a good point. I think the modern day concept of sexual orientation isnt completely accurate- the ancient world didnt have any such distinctions (in fact the Romans had a completely different view on what sex and manliness meant). Pigeonholing somebody as gay or straight or whatever doesnt work all the time. Anectdotal: I was friends with a guy for many years and he was a devoted family man with three kids and a churchgoer, I recently called up his wife because we lost touch since I moved overseas and his wife now tells me he turned gay and they divorced. Wow.

There's quite a bit of scientific evidence that most people have varying degrees of homosexual urges. We just happen to live in a culture that's historically been so anti-gay that most of us either forget about or even suppress those urges as we grow up. (Not all cultures in the history of humanity have been like this, however.)
 
No one changes their sexuality. Many people who come out as gay shock those closest to them. The pressure to appear straight, the inner turmoil with rejecting your own sexuality, the stigma, the hate - can motivate anyone who is gay or bisexual to appear to all eyes as completely heterosexual. Thinking that someone was always heterosexual does not mean that they wear. Sexuality is an abstract concept that we don't even fully understand. The notion that every orientation has a distinct look and guideline that it adheres to is ridiculous.

I'm going to disagree with the bold, but I do highly agree with the last sentence. I have known people whose orientation seems to be shifting and they are as surprised about it as anyone else. These aren't people who have said that they've been hiding their true sexuality and can't hide any more. They are people who have gone to date thinking that they are straight (and in one case gay) and only recently have been having attractions to their same gender (opposite for that one). Only one though has noted a decline in attraction for their "normal" gender preference, so far. Now this isn't an argument for "choice" in orientation. But it is one against orientation doesn't change. If you want to throw an "usually" into that sentence then there might be more accuracy.
 
Being homosexual is normal/natrual to a homosexual just the same as being hetrosexual is normal/natural for a hetrosexual.
 
I'm going to disagree with the bold, but I do highly agree with the last sentence. I have known people whose orientation seems to be shifting and they are as surprised about it as anyone else. These aren't people who have said that they've been hiding their true sexuality and can't hide any more. They are people who have gone to date thinking that they are straight (and in one case gay) and only recently have been having attractions to their same gender (opposite for that one). Only one though has noted a decline in attraction for their "normal" gender preference, so far. Now this isn't an argument for "choice" in orientation. But it is one against orientation doesn't change. If you want to throw an "usually" into that sentence then there might be more accuracy.

Let me clarify what I meant. Sexuality is not a light switch. It is not possible to consciously change your sexuality. Someone who does not find men attractive or who has zero inclination to have sex with them can not just sit up one day and go " you know what starting today, I'm homosexual" and then live the rest of their life with real attraction for their own gender. I agree that sexuality is fluid and can change, but the notion that the change is conscious I disagree with.

P.s. I see that you clarified that in your post as well. Cheers.
 
Let me clarify what I meant. Sexuality is not a light switch. It is not possible to consciously change your sexuality. Someone who does not find men attractive or who has zero inclination to have sex with them can not just sit up one day and go " you know what starting today, I'm homosexual" and then live the rest of their life with real attraction for their own gender. I agree that sexuality is fluid and can change, but the notion that the change is conscious I disagree with.

P.s. I see that you clarified that in your post as well. Cheers.

I shall have to disagree with you on this, but will stipulate that such would be a relatively rare occasion. I don't hold that orientation has only one cause or another. Some will be by genetics, others by environment, still others due to oddities such as chimerism and then the very few who can actually choose. For the majority it is something outside at least the conscious control of the individual. But I will never say that there are not those who can choose. Some have claimed so and there simply is no evidence to nay say their claim.
 
Did this about normal a few years ago, and decided it was time to try again. Was a fun and interesting thread at the time, so hopefully this will be as well. Two simple questions. Is Homosexuality "normal", and is homosexuality "natural"? If you would, please include your reasoning.

Poll will allow multiple choices, pick a choice for the "normal" question and for the "natural" question. Poll will be up in a couple minutes.

Depends on definitions. If by natural you mean occurs in nature, then the factual answer is yes, it's natural. Normal is more problematic as we have to establish what the norm is, which I think in America would be difficult, as next to no one meets any norm, making being outside the norm the norm. (A little humor there) So, I'm going to vote yes to both.
 
I shall have to disagree with you on this, but will stipulate that such would be a relatively rare occasion. I don't hold that orientation has only one cause or another. Some will be by genetics, others by environment, still others due to oddities such as chimerism and then the very few who can actually choose. For the majority it is something outside at least the conscious control of the individual. But I will never say that there are not those who can choose. Some have claimed so and there simply is no evidence to nay say their claim.

Does a hetrosexual decide to be hetrosexual?.....when or at what point in a hetrosexual consiousness do they make the "choice" to be straight?
 
Does a hetrosexual decide to be hetrosexual?.....when or at what point in a hetrosexual consiousness do they make the "choice" to be straight?

IF said individual is one of the few who can choose, then they become a heterosexual when they decide to. Your response implies that I am applying the ability to choose to everyone. Note that I provided a variety of underlying causes to one's orientation. I have also noted that one's orientation might be mailable or can change over the years. BTW of the people who have claimed to have chosen not all are choosing to go from homosexual to heterosexual. There are some who are choosing the other direction and there was even a thread on here somewhere about a news article on one such person, who choose to turn gay from straight.
 
I don't see the human population declining. We have how many billion people now?

Who said it was? The point is if we were all gay, we would die out. We have to reproduce to survive. I mean, really, this is just common sense. I know you want to make gay normal and have your own ideas, but they just aren't feasible in reality.
 
Look, there's also a human instinct to personally survive and in times thru human history when food was scarce or the kid was deformed and in a war obsessed culture, they would often be left to die or even used as food themselves. Anthropologists like Birdsell calculate that at least 15% were killed (and 50% of females) until agriculture changed. There's even been cultures that sacrificed newborns to their gods, hardly a necessity. Infanticide has gone on forever mostly because babies aren't easy to care for.

The instinct to reproduce, if you're going to argue its sole purpose is to propagate the species, is what's imperfect and varies and in conflict with other instincts. It is not like the instinct to breath, else people and animals would be screwing at every opportunity.

This STILL does not negate the basic drive to reproduce. Breathing is NOT an instinct. It is an involuntary bodily process.
 
Actually, technology is developing at such a rate that homosexual reproduction will be possible in just a few short years.

Interesting! Do you have a link?
 
Who said it was? The point is if we were all gay, we would die out. We have to reproduce to survive. I mean, really, this is just common sense. I know you want to make gay normal and have your own ideas, but they just aren't feasible in reality.

We aren't all gay, so this isn't a valid concern.
 
We aren't all gay, so this isn't a valid concern.

And why aren't we all gay? Because we must reproduce and two gay people cannot, as of yet anyway. Even if some type of medical advance made it so that they could, it still doesn't change basic biological instinct.
 
Who said it was? The point is if we were all gay, we would die out. We have to reproduce to survive. I mean, really, this is just common sense. I know you want to make gay normal and have your own ideas, but they just aren't feasible in reality.

I understand your point about reproduction, and it's true, obviously. We need to reproduce and that drive is innate, part of our DNA.

It's why I answered "don't know" on the OP poll. They aren't the right questions, IMO. Normal isn't a useful way to characterize human sexual orientation. It's common, present in all cultures and for all of recorded history at least, even in societies where being gay and getting caught brings a death sentence.

The relevant question to me is whether or not being gay is a choice, or whether it's determined by factors outside the control of the person, and I don't think there is any doubt (for all purposes that matter) that our sexual orientation is NOT a choice.

The second question is whether a person can change their sexual orientation. And there is simply no evidence they can.

Obviously in a population of hundreds of millions in the U.S., billions worldwide, there could be rare exceptions. But these exceedingly rare exceptionsaren't useful to consider for purposes of decision making. So the only useful assumption is that no one chooses their orientation, and when that orientation is set, it can't be changed. Enough societal pressure, or religious pressure, can change behavior, but not orientation. So if you find out your cousin is gay, assume he's always been gay and nothing anyone can do will change it. If you're a woman, and meet a guy who says he used to be gay, assume he is still gay, will never change, and act accordingly. If you want to criminalize gay behavior, and justify it because you believe it's a choice, and offenders can simply choose to be straight, you're wrong, and will make criminals out of people who had no role in their being gay.
 

Well, I'm not really understanding how this would work. They think they can create eggs and a uterus? Interesting, but it sounds like it might be a long ways off. We should certainly investigate the use of stem cells to cure disease first, before experimenting with this kind of stuff.
 
All that matters is does homosexuality cause harm and that's a question that has long since been answered.

How did you come to that conclusion? The question asked in this thread was about normality not safety. For example answer these two statements with a true or false:

Normally people chose to engage in sexual behavior with people of the opposite gender. True or False
Normally people chose to engage in sexual behavior with people of the same gender. True or False

If you answer true to both you are lying. One is normal. The other is less common. It would be up to do you do decipher which one it is. In my opinion being left-handed is not normal. That's not the same as good or bad. That is not the same as safe or harmful. This thread asks about normality. I guess this is all about arguing the definition of normal and has nothing to do with homosexuality whatsoever. That happens a lot in controversial topics.

You are disrespecting the poster by rebelling against his line of questioning. That's not nice of you. That's pretty mean.
 
I understand your point about reproduction, and it's true, obviously. We need to reproduce and that drive is innate, part of our DNA.

It's why I answered "don't know" on the OP poll. They aren't the right questions, IMO. Normal isn't a useful way to characterize human sexual orientation. It's common, present in all cultures and for all of recorded history at least, even in societies where being gay and getting caught brings a death sentence.

The relevant question to me is whether or not being gay is a choice, or whether it's determined by factors outside the control of the person, and I don't think there is any doubt (for all purposes that matter) that our sexual orientation is NOT a choice.

The second question is whether a person can change their sexual orientation. And there is simply no evidence they can.

Obviously in a population of hundreds of millions in the U.S., billions worldwide, there could be rare exceptions. But these exceedingly rare exceptionsaren't useful to consider for purposes of decision making. So the only useful assumption is that no one chooses their orientation, and when that orientation is set, it can't be changed. Enough societal pressure, or religious pressure, can change behavior, but not orientation. So if you find out your cousin is gay, assume he's always been gay and nothing anyone can do will change it. If you're a woman, and meet a guy who says he used to be gay, assume he is still gay, will never change, and act accordingly. If you want to criminalize gay behavior, and justify it because you believe it's a choice, and offenders can simply choose to be straight, you're wrong, and will make criminals out of people who had no role in their being gay.

I have nothing against gay people, and I don't know what causes a person to be gay. I just don't think it's necessarily "normal" is all. I think it's normal for us to be attracted to the opposite sex. I don't think that it hurts anything for these people to be gay though. I don't think there are enough or ever have been enough of them to affect the population one way or the other.
 
You are looking at this in way too simple terms! :roll:

I am differentiating, and thus deconstructing the issue, thereby, yes, making it more simplified. This is, yes, an educated manner of thinking too.
 
I am differentiating, and thus deconstructing the issue, thereby, yes, making it more simplified. This is, yes, an educated manner of thinking too.

I don't think so.
 
Actually, technology is developing at such a rate that homosexual reproduction will be possible in just a few short years.

Artificially. A woman can not ejaculate sperm into another woman and a man can not carry a child since he has no womb. Those links only confirm that it might be possible in the future as well.
 
I don't think so.

That is abundantly clear... but it is fairly clear that this is what I have done. Gath sees it.
 
That is abundantly clear... but it is fairly clear that this is what I have done. Gath sees it.

You really haven't done too much of anything, hate to break it to you. :lol: You are just trying to simplify a complicated issue.
 
This is not the norm. Most people who harm their children are suffering from mental illness of some kind. Also, NO humans are perfect. None of these things negate the basic underlying instinct to reproduce. I cannot even believe people would argue about this. :roll:

What I can't believe is your total ****ing blatant refusal to accept that people have sex to have an organism. I was married for ten years and had sex thousands of times. Only for a few months two different times did we actually want to reproduce. NONE of the other times was that even remotely wanted. You brought up the want. Now you ignore it.

What they're ignoring is that we also have a biological drive to survive personally, and so mothers have been known to kill their own offspring. Humans have demonstrated all kinds of cruelty to their own children, and if "good of the species" could explain all of our actions, well murder, war, and genocide wouldn't exist now would it.

Agreed. I have pointed all this out and it has been conveniently ignored.
 
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