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Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

Is homosexuality "normak" and "natural"?


  • Total voters
    116
Argh!

NO!!! People WANT TO DO IT because IT ****ING FEELS GOOD!!! People do not WANT TO DO IT to propagate the ****ing species!!!

Propagating the species is the by-product.

What they're ignoring is that we also have a biological drive to survive personally, and so mothers have been known to kill their own offspring. Humans have demonstrated all kinds of cruelty to their own children, and if "good of the species" could explain all of our actions, well murder, war, and genocide wouldn't exist now would it.
 
What they're ignoring is that we also have a biological drive to survive personally, and so mothers have been known to kill their own offspring. Humans have demonstrated all kinds of cruelty to their own children, and if "good of the species" could explain all of our actions, well murder, war, and genocide wouldn't exist now would it.

This is not the norm. Most people who harm their children are suffering from mental illness of some kind. Also, NO humans are perfect. None of these things negate the basic underlying instinct to reproduce. I cannot even believe people would argue about this. :roll:
 
Did this about normal a few years ago, and decided it was time to try again. Was a fun and interesting thread at the time, so hopefully this will be as well. Two simple questions. Is Homosexuality "normal", and is homosexuality "natural"? If you would, please include your reasoning.

Poll will allow multiple choices, pick a choice for the "normal" question and for the "natural" question. Poll will be up in a couple minutes.

Yes, obviously.

The simple fact is that humanity is it's own creation and responsibility as are individuals. Being gay offers no real harm to others, society, children, neutrons, small goats, planets, dragons, large goats, or cowboys.
 
Yes, obviously.

The simple fact is that humanity is it's own creation and responsibility as are individuals. Being gay offers no real harm to others, society, children, neutrons, small goats, planets, dragons, large goats, or cowboys.

This is all true, and we are capable of going against our basic instincts and using our intelligence, but just like all animals, we have to reproduce in order for our species to survive.
 
This is all true, and we are capable of going against our basic instincts and using our intelligence, but just like all animals, we have to reproduce in order for our species to survive.

I don't see the human population declining. We have how many billion people now?
 
This is all true, and we are capable of going against our basic instincts and using our intelligence, but just like all animals, we have to reproduce in order for our species to survive.

Actually, technology is developing at such a rate that homosexual reproduction will be possible in just a few short years.
 
Did this about normal a few years ago, and decided it was time to try again. Was a fun and interesting thread at the time, so hopefully this will be as well. Two simple questions. Is Homosexuality "normal", and is homosexuality "natural"? If you would, please include your reasoning.

Poll will allow multiple choices, pick a choice for the "normal" question and for the "natural" question. Poll will be up in a couple minutes.

Normal how so? Mathematically? Or in terms of social acceptance?
 
That sounds identical to my uncle's situation. However, the idea of him "turning gay" is absurd, sorry. That's most likely his ex-wife's explanation to avoid embarrassment. Just cause he married, went to church, and had 3 kids he wasn't gay? Well so did my uncle, and he insists he was gay the entire time and took this path only cause it was (still in this state) the only means to marry and have kids, and for career purposes.
I dunno, I knew the guy for years and there was no indication he ever was gay, we were always out going hitting on girls back in the day. Perhaps he may have turned bisexual or something but I believe that someone can change their sexual orientation.
 
Here's a question. What use is there for caring about natural? If we stuck to the natural ten there would be no internet. Avoiding the natural has been a cause of great progress for humanity
 
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This is not the norm. Most people who harm their children are suffering from mental illness of some kind. Also, NO humans are perfect. None of these things negate the basic underlying instinct to reproduce. I cannot even believe people would argue about this. :roll:

Look, there's also a human instinct to personally survive and in times thru human history when food was scarce or the kid was deformed and in a war obsessed culture, they would often be left to die or even used as food themselves. Anthropologists like Birdsell calculate that at least 15% were killed (and 50% of females) until agriculture changed. There's even been cultures that sacrificed newborns to their gods, hardly a necessity. Infanticide has gone on forever mostly because babies aren't easy to care for.

The instinct to reproduce, if you're going to argue its sole purpose is to propagate the species, is what's imperfect and varies and in conflict with other instincts. It is not like the instinct to breath, else people and animals would be screwing at every opportunity.
 
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I think there are some people who are genuinely gay but I think, overall, it's more about being young and super liberal.
 
The simple fact is that humanity is it's own creation and responsibility as are individuals.

wtf.gif


Putting the cart before the horse here just a tad, don't you think?

At best, we are creations of our environment.

Here's a question. What use is there for caring about natural? If we stuck to the natural ten there would be no internet. Avoiding the natural has been a cause of great progress for humanity

Why care about the intrinsic design of any machine or closed system?

Progress is all well and good. However, progress which ignores our ingrained nature tends to be doomed to failure.

If nothing else, the collapse (and horrific consequences) of just about every Twentieth Century ideology to try and "remake" human nature proves that much.
 
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I dunno, I knew the guy for years and there was no indication he ever was gay, we were always out going hitting on girls back in the day. Perhaps he may have turned bisexual or something but I believe that someone can change their sexual orientation.

So? If he wanted to hide it badly enough or was in deep denial, that's what he'd do. So many gay people have been in sham relationships and marriages, you wouldn't believe it. Some can't hide it so well but those who can, there wouldn't be any indication unless you caught them with a dick in their mouth.

And why on earth would he change his sexuality, to lose his marriage?
 
Here's a question. What use is there for caring about natural? If we stuck to the natural ten there would be no internet. Avoiding the natural has been a cause of great progress for humanity
It has to do with the legal criteria of making a claim of discrimination in court. What OP doesn't realize is that if nothing else, homosexuality falls under equal protection of handicapped/disabled people. A person is homosexual because they are born with the opposite sex's olfactory region and so they are attracted to the same sex eventhough this is biologically in-congruent with their anatomy. IMO, this doesn't matter, because gays are perfectly functional despite the birth defect, and so the law should accommodate them.
 
wtf.gif


Putting the cart before the horse here just a tad, don't you think?

At best, we are creations of our environment.

We may have started out that way before we gained decent technology, but we shape ourselves and our environment rather rigorously these days and that will only increase, unless there is some major catastrophe.

Humans Evolving More Rapidly Than Ever, Say Scientists | Science | WIRED

Why care about the intrinsic design of any machine or closed system?

Progress is all well and good. However, progress which ignores our ingrained nature tends to be doomed to failure.

If nothing else, the collapse and horrific side effects) of just about every Twentieth Century ideology to try and "remake" human nature proves that much.

Our ingrained nature changes with progress. Also there is a difference between an ingrained nature that matters and one that does not. For example, the idea of legality, rights, and civilization are fairly new innovations that have only been around for a few ten thousand years. Yet now they are considered by many to be natural.

Our way of thinking is far from natural, likely changed very recently by modern education. Yet the adaptations are highly successful so far (we live longer and healthier than ever). Human nature really isn't something that is set in stone and there has been shown to be a lot of wiggle room. Its not the hard and fast rule that you imagine it is. Like all living organisms, humans are an adaptive species and human nature changes in response to pressures, that's a feature of biological systems.

What isn't natural of today can be quite natural for tomorrow, this is why we shouldn't look solely to the natural but be willing to shape and mold our own natures as we have done for at least the last thirty thousand years.
 
I dunno, I knew the guy for years and there was no indication he ever was gay, we were always out going hitting on girls back in the day. Perhaps he may have turned bisexual or something but I believe that someone can change their sexual orientation.

was he The Todd?

91577_1214395319820_full.jpg
 
So you are claiming most homosexual people are liberal?

:lol:

Young and super liberal, specifically.

I don't doubt that there are people who are genuinely gay but I think it's a huge fad in young and super liberal communities, like college campuses. That's not to say a fad is bad, mind you. I just think most of these kids are going to graduate college, get jobs, and eventually "realize" they're not gay, marry different sex partners, and be heterosexual for the rest of their lives.
 
We may have started out that way before we gained decent technology, but we shape ourselves and our environment rather rigorously these days and that will only increase, unless there is some major catastrophe.

Humans Evolving More Rapidly Than Ever, Say Scientists | Science | WIRED

Our environment has changed dramatically. We, however, have not.

At the end of the day, we're still the same cavemen we ever were. That's kind of exactly the problem here.

Our instincts don't know how to effectively deal with the modern world, and it changes far too quickly for our species to adapt.

Our ingrained nature changes with progress. Also there is a difference between an ingrained nature that matters and one that does not. For example, the idea of legality, rights, and civilization are fairly new innovations that have only been around for a few ten thousand years. Yet now they are considered by many to be natural.

Our way of thinking is far from natural, likely changed very recently by modern education. Yet the adaptations are highly successful so far (we live longer and healthier than ever). Human nature really isn't something that is set in stone and there has been shown to be a lot of wiggle room. Its not the hard and fast rule that you imagine it is. Like all living organisms, humans are an adaptive species and human nature changes in response to pressures, that's a feature of biological systems.

What isn't natural of today can be quite natural for tomorrow, this is why we shouldn't look solely to the natural but be willing to shape and mold our own natures as we have done for at least the last thirty thousand years.

To the contrary, I'd argue that human nature is essentially static, and that there's nothing intrinsically "new" about how we view the world today versus the past.

All the old staples of human, and even primate, civilization - hierarchy, gender roles, tribal identity, territoriality, war, profit motive, sex drive, and etca - are all still in place in terms of basic principle. They have simply adapted on a superficial basis to meet the needs of our modern environment.

Frankly, it wouldn't appear that they have even done so in a particularly efficient or productive manner anyway. Modern society is rife with problems, largely stemming from the fact that our instinctual means of addressing certain circumstances are struggling to keep pace with how the world has changed.

The Japanese and Europeans, for instance, are probably having more sex now than they ever have. However, they are also presently well on their way to extinction either way regardless, simply because human instinct has no way of accounting for the impact artificial inventions like the pill have had upon our fertility.

Trying to argue that fundamentally "unnatural" or "counter-instinctual" circumstances can be overcome through "willpower" or "re-education" alone is exactly the same trap the Marxists fell into a century ago. I'm sorry, but it didn't work any better for them in that era than it is going to work for us today. Human beings simply don't work like that.

The only method by which you are going to achieve the results you are advocating here is by fundamentally changing humanity, and human nature, itself through direct, and physical means. Frankly, that opens an entirely new kind of "Pandora's Box" in and of itself.
 
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What they're ignoring is that we also have a biological drive to survive personally, and so mothers have been known to kill their own offspring. Humans have demonstrated all kinds of cruelty to their own children, and if "good of the species" could explain all of our actions, well murder, war, and genocide wouldn't exist now would it.

Look, there's also a human instinct to personally survive and in times thru human history when food was scarce or the kid was deformed and in a war obsessed culture, they would often be left to die or even used as food themselves. Anthropologists like Birdsell calculate that at least 15% were killed (and 50% of females) until agriculture changed. There's even been cultures that sacrificed newborns to their gods, hardly a necessity. Infanticide has gone on forever mostly because babies aren't easy to care for.

The instinct to reproduce, if you're going to argue its sole purpose is to propagate the species, is what's imperfect and varies and in conflict with other instincts. It is not like the instinct to breath, else people and animals would be screwing at every opportunity.

In desperate circumstances, yes. It has been known to happen.

It actually makes a certain amount of sense from a biological and evolutionary perspective. A child cannot survive without it's parent, and a living parent can always produce more children in the future.

That being said, however, modern circumstances are rarely ever this dire.
 
I voted "not normak". Statistically, this can be verified. Obviously, it's perfectly natural for homosexuals. For them to be otherwise would be unnatural.
 
Our environment has changed dramatically. We, however, have not.

At the end of the day, we're still the same cavemen we ever were. That's kind of exactly the problem here.

Our instincts don't know how to effectively deal with the modern world, and it changes far too quickly for our species to adapt.



To the contrary, I'd argue that human nature is essentially static, and that there's nothing intrinsically "new" about how we view the world today versus the past.

All the old staples of human, and even primate, civilization - hierarchy, gender roles, tribal identity, territoriality, war, profit motive, sex drive, and etca - are all still in place in terms of basic principle. They have simply adapted on a superficial basis to meet the needs of our modern environment.

Frankly, it wouldn't appear that they have even done so in a particularly efficient or productive manner anyway. Modern society is rife with problems, largely stemming from the fact that our instinctual means of addressing certain circumstances are struggling to keep pace with how the world has changed.

The Japanese and Europeans, for instance, are probably having more sex now than they ever have. However, they are also presently well on their way to extinction either way regardless, simply because human instinct has no way of accounting for the impact artificial inventions like the pill have had upon our fertility.

Trying to argue that fundamentally "unnatural" or "counter-instinctual" circumstances can be overcome through "willpower" or "re-education" alone is exactly the same trap the Marxists fell into a century ago. I'm sorry, but it didn't work any better for them in that era than it is going to work for us today. Human beings simply don't work like that.

The only method by which you are going to achieve the results you are advocating here is by fundamentally changing humanity, and human nature, itself through direct, and physical means. Frankly, that opens an entirely new kind of "Pandora's Box" in and of itself.

Some aspects of human nature may be slower to change than other aspects. Some things like the need to eat may never change though. Emotionally though, we have changed even in recent times. For example, conservative instincts and outlook can be pretty much traced back to the recent innovation of agriculture and the need for tribal systems. In general, that outlook matches closed tribal societies very closely with things like reverence for tradition, strong ingroup/outgroup dynamics, etc. This didn't really come about until the advent of agriculture. Your own outlook is a fairly recent innovation and does not easily trace back as an adaption to "cave man" life. (I think the liberal mindset traces fairly well back to hunter-gatherer, with its reverence for nature, holistic approaches to life, etc)

Also, those "problems" of modern society have been decreasing lately, there is less war, poverty, incarceration, and other general suffering than at any point in history on a per capita basis. Far from having issues adapting to modern culture, we are more successful than we ever were. As far as declining birth rates, thats not a real issue since the human population is steadily increasing.

While you are partially right, there is a range of what humanity can accept within a society, you are wrong in that it is static as I have shown. The human population is ever moving towards collectivist tendancies, even the US and this is likely an adaption to our large population that you fear is declining.
 
I dunno, I knew the guy for years and there was no indication he ever was gay, we were always out going hitting on girls back in the day.

Nothing at all unusual about that. I knew my brother for 28 years, lived with him for about 17 of them, and summers in college, and didn't know. Same thing with two roommates in college.

Perhaps he may have turned bisexual or something but I believe that someone can change their sexual orientation.

It's possible someone CAN, but there is no evidence that more than a tiny sliver of the population DO change their orientation, and this is true even of the most highly motivated individuals who try to become straight through conversion therapy (or as I call them, reeducation camps).

Edit to say I would have passed on commenting on that except the 'gay is a choice' thing is an easy out for bigots. I've seen NO indication that's how you're using the belief, but if one wants to justify any manner of discrimination, then simply stating that it's a choice like taking heroin is the way to do it. Don't like laws against SSM? Fine, just 'choose' to be straight and marry a woman. No problem! Except in real life that's NOT an option for the overwhelming majority of homosexuals. If it was a realistic option, gay reparative therapy would have a nearly 100% success rate instead of the roughly 0% success rate it has in real life on real people who are, by definition, HIGHLY motivated to change their orientation.
 
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No one changes their sexuality. Many people who come out as gay shock those closest to them. The pressure to appear straight, the inner turmoil with rejecting your own sexuality, the stigma, the hate - can motivate anyone who is gay or bisexual to appear to all eyes as completely heterosexual. Thinking that someone was always heterosexual does not mean that they wear. Sexuality is an abstract concept that we don't even fully understand. The notion that every orientation has a distinct look and guideline that it adheres to is ridiculous.
 
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