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Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

Is homosexuality "normak" and "natural"?

  • Total voters
    116
Taylor said:
The "state of being" as you call it didn't come into existence until very recently [at least in western culture], so I would say it is more cultural than natural.
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Homosexuality as a state is the constant attraction to your own sex. On what basis are you assuming that it is new? There are documentation of self identified homosexulas who describe their attraction to their own gender which would confirm that it is not cultural nor new.

Of course that only applies to homosexual sex. Animals don't have a homosexual "state of being."
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Yes actually some of them do. Homosexuality, the state, is the attraction to the same gender. This attraction leads to relationships and affection that is not only demonstrated as a form of foreplay to immediate sex. Many animals do in fact form couples with their own gender - pairings that includes not only sex but affection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
Penguins
Penguins have been observed to engage in homosexual behaviour since at least as early as 1911.
In early February 2004 the New York Times reported that Roy and Silo, a male pair of chinstrap penguins in the Central Park Zoo in New York City had successfully hatched and fostered a female chick from a fertile egg they had been given to incubate. Other penguins in New York zoos have also been reported to have formed same-sex pairs.
Zoos in Japan and Germany have also documented homosexual male penguin couples. The couples have been shown to build nests together and use a stone as a substitute for an egg. Researchers at Rikkyo University in Tokyo found 20 homosexual pairs at 16 major aquariums and zoos in Japan.
The Bremerhaven Zoo in Germany attempted to encourage reproduction of endangered Humboldt penguins by importing females from Sweden and separating three male pairs, but this was unsuccessful. The zoo's director said that the relationships were "too strong" between the homosexual pairs.

Vultures
In 1998 two male Griffon vultures named Dashik and Yehuda, at the Jerusalem Biblical Zoo, engaged in "open and energetic sex" and built a nest. The keepers provided the couple with an artificial egg, which the two parents took turns incubating; and 45 days later, the zoo replaced the egg with a baby vulture. The two male vultures raised the chick together. A few years later, however, Yehuda became interested in a female vulture that was brought into the aviary. Dashik became depressed, and was eventually moved to the zoological research garden at Tel Aviv University where he too set up a nest with a female vulture.

Elephants
African and Asian males will engage in same-sex bonding and mounting. Such encounters are often associated with affectionate interactions, such as kissing, trunk intertwining, and placing trunks in each other's mouths. Male elephants, who often live apart from the general herd, often form "companionships", consisting of an older individual and one or sometimes two younger, attendant males with sexual behavior being an important part of the social dynamic. Unlike heterosexual relations, which are always of a fleeting nature, the relationships between males may last for years. The encounters are analogous to heterosexual bouts, one male often extending his trunk along the other's back and pushing forward with his tusks to signify his intention to mount. Same-sex relations are common and frequent in both sexes, with Asiatic elephants in captivity devoting roughly 45% of sexual encounters to same-sex activity.

Japanese macaque
With the Japanese macaque, also known as the "snow monkey", same-sex relations are frequent, though rates vary between troops. Females will form "consortships" characterized by affectionate social and sexual activities. In some troops up to one quarter of the females form such bonds, which vary in duration from a few days to a few weeks. Often, strong and lasting friendships result from such pairings. Males also have same-sex relations, typically with multiple partners of the same age. Affectionate and playful activities are associated with such relations.

Lions
Both male and female lions have been seen to interact homosexually. Male lions pair-bond for a number of days and initiate homosexual activity with affectionate nuzzling and caressing, leading to mounting and thrusting. About 8% of mountings have been observed to occur with other males.
 
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Taylor said:
The "state of being" as you call it didn't come into existence until very recently [at least in western culture], so I would say it is more cultural than natural.


There are people who claim that homosexuality is "natural" simply because it occurs in nature. If we wish to use that definition of the term, then one could argue that pretty much anything and everything is "natural" - the term becomes somewhat meaningless.

Of course that only applies to homosexual sex. Animals don't have a homosexual "state of being."
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The "state of being" regarding homosexuality has been around for thousands of years...

...and that is the point. Something being "natural" is meaningless. It is a term that homophobic people use to attempt to use in order to make homosexuality appear deviant because it isn't "natural", whatever that means.
 
Zinthaniel said:
Homosexuality as a state is the constant attraction to your own sex. On what basis are you assuming that it is new? There are documentation of self identified homosexulas who describe their attraction to their own gender which would confirm that it is not cultural nor new.


Yes actually some of them do. Homosexuality, the state, is the attraction to the same gender. This attraction leads to relationships and affection that is not only demonstrated as a form of foreplay to immediate sex. Many animals do in fact form couples with their own gender - pairing that includes not only sex but affection.

Penguins
Penguins have been observed to engage in homosexual behaviour since at least as early as 1911.
In early February 2004 the New York Times reported that Roy and Silo, a male pair of chinstrap penguins in the Central Park Zoo in New York City had successfully hatched and fostered a female chick from a fertile egg they had been given to incubate. Other penguins in New York zoos have also been reported to have formed same-sex pairs.
Zoos in Japan and Germany have also documented homosexual male penguin couples. The couples have been shown to build nests together and use a stone as a substitute for an egg. Researchers at Rikkyo University in Tokyo found 20 homosexual pairs at 16 major aquariums and zoos in Japan.
The Bremerhaven Zoo in Germany attempted to encourage reproduction of endangered Humboldt penguins by importing females from Sweden and separating three male pairs, but this was unsuccessful. The zoo's director said that the relationships were "too strong" between the homosexual pairs.

Vultures
In 1998 two male Griffon vultures named Dashik and Yehuda, at the Jerusalem Biblical Zoo, engaged in "open and energetic sex" and built a nest. The keepers provided the couple with an artificial egg, which the two parents took turns incubating; and 45 days later, the zoo replaced the egg with a baby vulture. The two male vultures raised the chick together. A few years later, however, Yehuda became interested in a female vulture that was brought into the aviary. Dashik became depressed, and was eventually moved to the zoological research garden at Tel Aviv University where he too set up a nest with a female vulture.

Elephants
African and Asian males will engage in same-sex bonding and mounting. Such encounters are often associated with affectionate interactions, such as kissing, trunk intertwining, and placing trunks in each other's mouths. Male elephants, who often live apart from the general herd, often form "companionships", consisting of an older individual and one or sometimes two younger, attendant males with sexual behavior being an important part of the social dynamic. Unlike heterosexual relations, which are always of a fleeting nature, the relationships between males may last for years. The encounters are analogous to heterosexual bouts, one male often extending his trunk along the other's back and pushing forward with his tusks to signify his intention to mount. Same-sex relations are common and frequent in both sexes, with Asiatic elephants in captivity devoting roughly 45% of sexual encounters to same-sex activity.

Japanese macaque
With the Japanese macaque, also known as the "snow monkey", same-sex relations are frequent, though rates vary between troops. Females will form "consortships" characterized by affectionate social and sexual activities. In some troops up to one quarter of the females form such bonds, which vary in duration from a few days to a few weeks. Often, strong and lasting friendships result from such pairings. Males also have same-sex relations, typically with multiple partners of the same age. Affectionate and playful activities are associated with such relations.

Lions
Both male and female lions have been seen to interact homosexually. Male lions pair-bond for a number of days and initiate homosexual activity with affectionate nuzzling and caressing, leading to mounting and thrusting. About 8% of mountings have been observed to occur with other males.
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After reading this I was thinking, "I like this guy" but immediately realized that type of statement could be taken out of context in a thread like this.
 
Taylor said:
I don't see there being one objectively "correct" use of terms -
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And that's why this topic will never stop being talked about. It's whatever you want it to be.
 
mbig said:
We of course "don't have to".. of course without it, no More us. Funny about evolution.
It gives us 'Natural' desires.

I would refer you to ChrisL's post #386:

"Yes, well you may have sex because it feels good, but mother nature has her own reasons for sex feeling good. I believe it is designed to feel good so that you will want to do it. Of course, because we are intelligent creatures, we are aware that sex leads to babies, so we use precautions. It's not like it's something you would be aware of anyways. MOST men are attracted to beautiful healthy-looking and young women. There are reasons for this."​

And your replies are Tiresome PC, NOT addressing evolution or the respective genders obviously reciprocal organs and Millions of years of evolution and procreation.
No one says homosexuality doesn't exist/isn't possible/or is immoral, it's just Contrary to their genders' parts/evolution.
To this you have No reply- of course...except, like the debater before you, this behavior also exists in other animals.

So unless there's something meatier forthcoming..
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It would help if you answered the question in post #418. The post you cited from ChrisL isn't addressing it.
 
LowDown said:
Some people think that "normal" means "good". It just means consistent with average behavior, which might be good or bad. In this regard homosexuality isn't normal.

Nothing human is alien to nature.
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That's right. In some times of humanity it was normal to persecute or denigrate the Jews. Didn't make it a good thing.
 
Taylor said:
Where's your evidence for this?
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Let's make sure we are on the same page first. Are you claiming that "homosexuals" engaging in "homosexual relationships" is a relatively new thing in Western culture or are you saying something else and I mis-read you?
 
definitely natural.

I said no to normal as I guess to me normal is defined as typical.
 
Taylor said:
Where's your evidence for this?
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Wow this is an absurd argument you are trying to create. So your position is that up until recently homosexuality was nothing but a bunch of people randomly having sex with their own gender, no attraction - no affection - no desire for relationships, and that it was only recently that they began to experience constant attraction to their own gender?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Let's make sure we are on the same page first. Are you claiming that "homosexuals" engaging in "homosexual relationships" is a relatively new thing in Western culture or are you saying something else and I mis-read you?
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Not talking about relationships or sex, just the tendency for a person to think of themselves as "a homosexual"
 
Zinthaniel said:
Wow this is an absurd argument you are trying to create. So your position is that up until recently homosexuality was nothing but a bunch of people randomly having sex with their own gender, no attraction - no affection - no desire for relationships, and that it was only recently that they began to experience constant attraction to their own gender?
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No, I'm saying that up until recently they didn't consider such attractions to constitute a major part of their identity as an individual.
 
ARealConservative said:
definitely natural.

I said no to normal as I guess to me normal is defined as typical.
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Which would, of course, make left-handed people abnormal. Most people don't think of abnormality as simply falling out of the statistical average, but as something that is actually wrong with the individual. You could also use it, under the same terms, to refer to black people as abnormal. That's why I'd hesitate to use the term "normal" to refer to something that is perfectly fine, even if it only applies to a minority.
 
Taylor said:
Not talking about relationships or sex, just the tendency for a person to think of themselves as "a homosexual"
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I would imagine that there is but I would seriously doubt that there is any evidence of this because, as it was seriously looked down upon by society and the church that no records would have been kept. I bet my life that there were homosexuals having secret relationships though and that, if they knew what the concept was, would have identified themselves as Homosexuals. You can't prove you are right and nobody can prove you wrong but that doesn't make your argument valid in the slightest either. As there are homosexuals now that claim that this was a natural thing for them and that they lived with women thinking it was right until they accepted their true self, always knew they were homosexual, etc. I would go with that as the default for human history.
 
Cephus said:
Which would, of course, make left-handed people abnormal. Most people don't think of abnormality as simply falling out of the statistical average, but as something that is actually wrong with the individual.
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...which is why you wouldn't call left-handed people "abnormal" but uncommon, atypical, or unrepresentative of the population.

"Abnormal" is not the opposite of "normal" because as you say, it connotes something undesirable.
 
Cephus said:
Which would, of course, make left-handed people abnormal. Most people don't think of abnormality as simply falling out of the statistical average, but as something that is actually wrong with the individual. You could also use it, under the same terms, to refer to black people as abnormal. That's why I'd hesitate to use the term "normal" to refer to something that is perfectly fine, even if it only applies to a minority.
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Like I said before... normal and natural are homophobic arguments attempting to make homosexuality appear "deviant", as you outline here.
 
Zinthaniel said:
Wow this is an absurd argument you are trying to create. So your position is that up until recently homosexuality was nothing but a bunch of people randomly having sex with their own gender, no attraction - no affection - no desire for relationships, and that it was only recently that they began to experience constant attraction to their own gender?
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Agreed. All of a sudden a bunch of men decided that, hey, I want to try something never done before and fall in love with another man and/or be exclusively attracted to men only? It doesn't make any sense...
 
Zinthaniel said:
Homosexuality as a state is the constant attraction to your own sex. On what basis are you assuming that it is new? There are documentation of self identified homosexulas who describe their attraction to their own gender which would confirm that it is not cultural nor new.


Yes actually some of them do. Homosexuality, the state, is the attraction to the same gender. This attraction leads to relationships and affection that is not only demonstrated as a form of foreplay to immediate sex. Many animals do in fact form couples with their own gender - pairings that includes not only sex but affection.

Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Penguins
.../....
....
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But it is Disingenuous Not to Include Wiki's CONTEXT that precedes it.
YOUR LINK.

Preceded by:

[...] According to Bruce Bagemihl, "the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity – including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex – than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept."[5] Bagemihl adds, however, that this is "necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena".[6]

Simon Levay introduced the further caveat that "[a]lthough homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very Uncommon that individual animals have a Long-lasting Predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities.
Thus, a homosexual orientation, IF one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a Rarity."[7]
[........]
Applying the term homosexual to animals

The term homosexual was coined by Karl-Maria Kertbeny in 1868 to describe same-sex sexual attraction and sexual behavior in humans.[13]
Its use in animal studies has been Controversial for two main reasons: animal sexuality and motivating factors have been and remain poorly understood, and the term has strong cultural implications in western society that are IRRELEVANT for species other than humans.[14] Thus homosexual behavior has been given a number of terms over the years. When describing animals, the term homosexual is preferred over gay, lesbian, and other terms Currently in use, as these are seen as even more bound to human homosexuality.[15]

Animal preference and motivation is always inferred from behavior. In wild animals, researchers will as a rule not be able to map the entire life of an individual, and must infer from frequency of single observations of behavior. The correct usage of the term homosexual is that an animal exhibits homosexual behavior or even same-sex sexual behavior; however, this article conforms to the usage by modern research,[15][16][17][18][19] applying the term homosexuality to all sexual behavior (copulation, genital stimulation, mating games and sexual display behavior) between animals of the same sex. In most instances, it is presumed that the homosexual behavior is but Part of the animal's overall sexual behavioral repertoire, making the animal "bisexual" rather than "homosexual" as the terms are commonly understood in humans,[18] but cases of homosexual preference and exclusive homosexual pairs are known.[20]
[.......]​

So it's really NOT generally analogous to using the term as it is applied to humans.
That would be further answer to Cephus in #413 as well.
 
mbig said:
wikipedia said:
In most instances, it is presumed that the homosexual behavior is but Part of the animal's overall sexual behavioral repertoire, making the animal "bisexual" rather than "homosexual" as the terms are commonly understood in humans,[18] but cases of homosexual preference and exclusive homosexual pairs are known.[20]
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Just out of curiosity, are you claiming that homo- and heterosexual activity are not both part of a human being's overall sexual behavior repertoire?
 
latest USA poll shows only 2.3% of the pop. is gay.

I think that makes it by DEFINITION, Abnormal(def.deviating from what is normal or usual)

That's science talk folks, and none of you ever question the mighty SCIENCE!!!!
 
JoeTrumps said:
latest USA poll shows only 2.3% of the pop. is gay.

I think that makes it by DEFINITION, Abnormal(def.deviating from what is normal or usual)

That's science talk folks, and none of you ever question the mighty SCIENCE!!!!
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In order for science to talk, there has to be an established scientific standard for whatever thing. I will await the publication of said standard.
 
Zinthaniel said:
From your own quote

And then the page goes on to point out just those instances.
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Holy Crap!
That's about as Disingenuous a 'quote'/Short quote as I have ever seen!
Even worse than YOUR leaving out the Wiki preface altogether!

And I have to laugh at the Irony of you saying "From your own quote", when the Great BULK of my post that Refuted you was from "YOUR own Link"! that you DISHONESTLY left off in favor of the little zoo you posted.
"My own quote", you gotta love it!

So my Debunking of your attempt to Mislead by short-quoting Wiki by leaving off the context stands.
Animal 'Homosexuality', as the term is applied to humans, is
1. [in VAST majority] "Irrelevant"
2. "A Rarity" in cases that are even remotely similar.

and your listing of all those animals was intentionally deceptive.
Of course you didn't address the Bulk of "my own quote" from YOUR Link, explaining that 'homosexuality' in animals is part of a repertoire of behaviors that are Not generally a long-lasting preference.
One cannot debate someone using this dishonest tactic that leaves off the meat.


EDIT:
I've already answered the below, which, if anything, admits homosexuality Isn't normal.
It also again, SHORT-QUOTES the meat of my post because he Cannot address it.
One cannot debate someone who doesn't quote nor address the Gist of what was said.
 
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mbig said:
Holy Crap!
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Whoa cool your panties. lmao.

It was your quote from my link - nothing deceptive about that.

And secondly your quote does in fact say -


but cases of homosexual preference and exclusive homosexual pairs are known.
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I'm not arguing that homosexuality is normal, as in it is prevalent. If we are asking if there such a thing as homosexuality among animals other than humans - the most primitive definition of the term homosexuality then there is documentation that concludes that yes there is.

How high do you have to move your goal post to read documentations of birds who not only have sex with each other but also raise offspring together to disingenuously claim that it is not a form of homosexuality?

Elephants who have sex with each other and continue to stay together for years.

You are being deceptive by trying to dismiss what is clearly shown by those examples of animal homosexuality. And your quotation from my link does not dismiss that. It speculates what homosexuality means to animals and whether or not it relevant to them as it is to us, but it does not say that the term Homosexuality, even EXCLUSIVE HOMOSEXUALITY, is not applicable to animals outside of Humans.
 
mbig said:
I've already answered the below, which, if anything, admits homosexuality Isn't normal.
It also again, SHORT-QUOTES the meat of my post because he Cannot address it.
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That's fine you don't have to respond, but I will point out that I never claimed that homosexuality is normal. So your whole contention with my argument was built upon your misunderstanding.
 
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