• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Hobby Lobby SCOTUS decided?

What did SCOTUS decide?

  • They decided only those four methods of birth control can be withheld.

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • They decided a private corporation can object to all forms of birth control.

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Don't know/unsure

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • Total voters
    15
tacomancer said:
yes and no. you can control your own actions sure (which is always true unless a person is unconscious or somehow does not possess free will), but if others are changed as a result of environmental influences, then the consequences of your actions, and therefore you available viable choices, changes.
Click to expand...

Well, the available choices may change, but that doesn't mean that I must make a choice from a substandard quality group. I always have the option of going it alone, or doing only what I believe is right.
 
lizzie said:
Well, the available choices may change, but that doesn't mean that I must make a choice from a substandard quality group. I always have the option of going it alone, or doing only what I believe is right.
Click to expand...

this is true, but it also does not disprove my point. The altered consequences still exist and therefore you have to consider those altered consequences. Therefore some control over your life has been exerted.
 
tacomancer said:
this is true, but it also does not disprove my point. The altered consequences still exist and therefore you have to consider those altered consequences. Therefore some control over your life has been exerted.
Click to expand...

There are no consequences of the HL decision that will exert control over my life. Or Lizzie's. Or yours, unless you choose to let it - or unless you're an employee of Hobby Lobby.
 
polgara said:
Tres, they *gasp* determine when an employee needs to show up for work, and how many hours they should be there. Very unfair! What if I have other plans for that day? Besides, I'm having a bad hair day, and can't make it to work on time!

They determine what is appropriate attire on the job. Very unfair! What if I feel like wearing a bikini because I'm going to the beach later?

They expect a reasonable attitude while you're there? Very unfair. If I'm feeling grouchy, that's my business.

They expect a reasonable amount of company work to be accomplished. Very unfair! What's wrong with playing games on my computer - everyone needs a little fun during the day.

Yep, those damn corporations have too much control over employees' lives, and that is just - well - unfair! :mrgreen:

Greetings, tres borrachos. :2wave:
Click to expand...

Happy Saturday Pol!
 
lizzie said:
Frankly, I don't really see this as being much different from the same purposes of the Hyde Amendment, which was passed back in the 70's, to prevent taxpayer money funding of abortion. I know the intent and method is different, but they are both issues regarding payment for something which is conscientiously objected to, by a certain segment of the population.

It is about abortion funding, not birth control. If it were about birth control, HL would have objected to the other birth control medications/methods as well as the abortifacients.
Click to expand...
The question is what SCOTUS decided, not what Hobby Lobby wanted. Catholics are against all forms birth control, does this decision give a corporation owned by Catholics give relief from the mandate? Is Alito Catholic?
 
tacomancer said:
this is true, but it also does not disprove my point. The altered consequences still exist and therefore you have to consider those altered consequences. Therefore some control over your life has been exerted.
Click to expand...

There is no way of proving that. Does a cultural change control my life, or do I choose how to (or not to) adapt those changes into my life? If I marry at age 18, to a guy who's a straight arrow, and we live a life according to our beliefs regarding right and wrong, does a changing sexual culture effect our lives really? I really doubt it. We may be exposed to more sexually graphic material and attitudes from the general population, but it doesn't mean that we change in response.
 
lizzie said:
There is no way of proving that. Does a cultural change control my life, or do I choose how to (or not to) adapt those changes into my life? If I marry at age 18, to a guy who's a straight arrow, and we live a life according to our beliefs regarding right and wrong, does a changing sexual culture effect our lives really? I really doubt it. We may be exposed to more sexually graphic material and attitudes from the general population, but it doesn't mean that we change in response.
Click to expand...

you changing as a person is not necessary for control to be exercised over your life. you may choose to fight that control by taking the "high road" but by fighting it, you are, in your actions admitting to its influence.

your broader point is also true. There are other things besides corporations that exert control over people as well. Past choices, environmental factors such as the amount of particulates or even pollen in the air, the choices of the people around us, etc. Its all connected in a giant web.
 
tres borrachos said:
There are no consequences of the HL decision that will exert control over my life. Or Lizzie's. Or yours, unless you choose to let it - or unless you're an employee of Hobby Lobby.
Click to expand...

Again, I was answering your broader question.
 
voyager1 said:
If I had to choose who had control over my life, government or corporations... I would choose government. Just because of the slight chance voters would change the government. All this ruling does is give corporations more power which it seems the freedom loving GOP and their minions seem to be lapping up like cat to warm milk. I hope they are okay with corporations controlling their lives, since this is a slippery slope
Click to expand...

We Conservative don't want anyone controlling our lives.

You want the government controlling your life because they give away free stuff whereas corporations don't.
 
lizzie said:
Frankly, I don't really see this as being much different from the same purposes of the Hyde Amendment, which was passed back in the 70's, to prevent taxpayer money funding of abortion. I know the intent and method is different, but they are both issues regarding payment for something which is conscientiously objected to, by a certain segment of the population.

It is about abortion funding, not birth control. If it were about birth control, HL would have objected to the other birth control medications/methods as well as the abortifacients.
Click to expand...
True!

and it reaffirmed this.

Religious Freedom Restoration Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
tacomancer said:
This is actually all true, but I disagree that it is a bad thing or that its worthy of sarcasm. Sometimes that control is helpful. If it helps people fit into a modern society due to negative consequences, then I don't see the problem with it (not under every circumstance, but generally, I see it as a good thing)

Hi lady wizard
Click to expand...

Hello to you! :2wave:

It wasn't the illegals specifically that I was referring to. You should hear some of the horror stories that HR people tell about the general attitude of newcomers to the job market! I don't know if it's the schools that are responsible, or just the "I want it, and I want it now - on my terms" generation! My granddaughter came to my house in a fit of pique recently - waving her first paycheck. "Look at how much money they took for taxes," she screamed! "I'm just going to have to demand a raise!" After I welcomed her to the real world, I explained why asking for a raise after working for two weeks was probably not the smartest move she'll ever make. She is now p***ed at the government - so add another name to the list! :lamo:
 
polgara said:
Hello to you! :2wave:

It wasn't the illegals specifically that I was referring to. You should hear some of the horror stories that HR people tell about the general attitude of newcomers to the job market! I don't know if it's the schools that are responsible, or just the "I want it, and I want it now - on my terms" generation! My granddaughter came to my house in a fit of pique recently - waving her first paycheck. "Look at how much money they took for taxes," she screamed! "I'm just going to have to demand a raise!" After I welcomed her to the real world, I explained why asking for a raise after working for two weeks was probably not the smartest move she'll ever make. She is now p***ed at the government - so add another name to the list! :lamo:
Click to expand...
I don't see what this has to do with my response
 
tacomancer said:
yes, but this does not disprove my point. The tie in to the greater point is that it will likely affect other choices corporations will make which will again exert an influence and therefor a manner of control (because influence basically is control, I could influence you to make a choice if I had a gun and a demand for example, but you would still make your own choice based on the consequences you perceive).
Click to expand...

You're missing the major point that the "Corporation" has no mandate power over you. The Government does and has exercised it.
And just to bring it back to the point of the thread (which you were griping about elsewhere), the SC said in the matter of HL they could not.
 
bubbabgone said:
You're missing the major point that the "Corporation" has no mandate power over you. The Government does and has exercised it.
And just to bring it back to the point of the thread (which you were griping about elsewhere), the SC said in the matter of HL they could not.
Click to expand...
OK they don't have one form of power. But in the end, power is power, only methods may be different
 
tacomancer said:
I don't see what this has to do with my response
Click to expand...

Perhaps I didn't get the gist of your post, but I believe it's the different branches of government that are the problem, not the business community or anyone else, and that's the point I was attempting to make. Apologies if I misunderstood.
 
polgara said:
Perhaps I didn't get the gist of your post, but I believe it's the different branches of government that are the problem, not the business community or anyone else, and that's the point I was attempting to make. Apologies if I misunderstood.
Click to expand...

I think all contributors share some amount of the blame. Its not just one power center.
 
tacomancer said:
I think all contributors share some amount of the blame. Its not just one power center.
Click to expand...

It's still the government that makes the laws we must live under, though. They can be challenged, and they regularly are, but that's to be expected and encouraged since we are a Constitutional Republic. You can't expect anything else, since it's impossible to please all the people all the time.
 
polgara said:
It's still the government that makes the laws we must live under, though. They can be challenged, and they regularly are, but that's to be expected and encouraged since we are a Constitutional Republic. You can't expect anything else, since it's impossible to please all the people all the time.
Click to expand...
Yes, government makes laws but that is not the only input into our environment, which freedom is dependent on. The better and less constrained the environment the freer someone is which was the basis of my point.
 
voyager1 said:
Corporations have all the power when it comes to employees. This ruling just gave them a little more.
Click to expand...

The corporation I work for has no power over my life, except in that I am expected to follow and uphold company policies when I am on the clock.
 
lizzie said:
Only to the extent that I let it. Porn is a huge industry, and we have no doubt seen some relaxing of sexual standards over the past few decades, but was it because porn had an influence, or has there been an increase in the porn industry as a result of changing standards? I tend to think it's probably the latter. Porn hasn't influenced my life a bit, as far as I am aware.
Click to expand...

Do you think porn has had any effect, however slight, on how you are expected to maintain your body?
 
I can't really respond to the question because I don't believe either of the first two options are comprehensive enough and can be open to misinterpretation and the latter one also implies a person doesn't understand the decision.
 
voyager1 said:
Corporations have all the power when it comes to employees. This ruling just gave them a little more.
Click to expand...

My employer has no power over me when I'm not working. Your employer holds power over you when you're not on their time? You may want to find another job.
 
Phys251 said:
Do you think porn has had any effect, however slight, on how you are expected to maintain your body?
Click to expand...

Tbh, I've never really even thought about that. I tend to think it's not so much a porn issue, as a deeply ingrained human sexuality issue. Women are historically valued for their beauty, and we still think that way when we are older. Men are more likely to be valued for their intellect and monetary successes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom