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America is or is not a Christian Nation.

Is America a Christian Nation?

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 25.7%

  • No

    Votes: 75 74.3%
  • Total voters
    101
ernst barkmann said:
why would you want 51% of the people to create or deny you rights.
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I don't. Even the Constitution came from the minds of the people, not 51% of the people. In fact, under the laws we live by, it requires a great deal more to deny rights to a person, since it takes more than 50% of the people to change the Constitution to constitutionally deny rights in a way that cannot be overcome with either legal or legislative effort.
 
roguenuke said:
I don't. Even the Constitution came from the minds of the people, not 51% of the people. In fact, under the laws we live by, it requires a great deal more to deny rights to a person, since it takes more than 50% of the people to change the Constitution to constitutionally deny rights in a way that cannot be overcome with either legal or legislative effort.
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I stated 51% which stands for a majority......51 to 49 is just the tipping point.

if the majority has the power to determine what rights are, then they ALSO have to power to deny rights to others, because they control the power.

our constitution has NEVER GRANTED ANY PERSON A RIGHT.

rights are recognized by the constitution or recognized by the USSC.

civil rights............are privileges and immunities of the constitution.

by what you said, you want people to have power over all rights.........you want democracy, majority rule, or mob rule....which the founders sought to avoid with our government.

you and others who think as you do never understand....if people have power to create, then they also have power to destroy, just and as people could create rights, people can also deny them to others.
 
ernst barkmann said:
I stated 51% which stands for a majority......51 to 49 is just the tipping point.

if the majority has the power to determine what rights are, then they ALSO have to power to deny rights to others, because they control the power.

our constitution has NEVER GRANTED ANY PERSON A RIGHT.

rights are recognized by the constitution or recognized by the USSC.

civil rights............are privileges and immunities of the constitution.

by what you said, you want people to have power over all rights.........you want democracy, majority rule, or mob rule....which the founders sought to avoid with our government.

you and others who think as you do never understand....if you give power to create, then you also give power to destroy, just and as people could create rights, they can also deny them to other people.
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But while the majority may be able to deny rights for a short time, this is true even if those rights are already listed in the Constitution.

Nothing "grants" rights to people. The Constitution recognizes the rights of people. And only people willingness to fight for their rights and the willingness of others to either fight for those rights or against them. No rights are automatically guaranteed to a person, no matter who it is or where they think their rights come from.

I said no such thing. Just because you want to read that into what I said does not make it true. I said that in order to deny rights constitutionally to people, it requires much more than a simple majority. (Technically, a simple majority is simply greater than 50%, not 51% because even at 50.000001%, that is a majority.)
 
Leaving aside discussions of your Constitution, the US - like the UK in the Nineteenth Century - has a lot of people who feel better if they have something they call a religion, and they tend to label it 'Christian'. A quick check on the New Testament, particularly the Sermon on the Mount will, I think, quickly destroy that particular fantasy.
 
Zinthaniel said:
A Special thread for Bodhisattva.

The United States is not a Christian Nation. That is my stance.
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A nation is defined by it's government and it's people - not only by it's majority. To refer to it as A Christian Nation is to falsely represent many Americans.






Our Country grants freedom for all religions and lack thereof. Grand Cathedrals, churches, Temples, Mosques, and Conventions for Non Believers can be found all over this country. All of which are given equal respect and right to exist.
Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our Government and thus our laws are entirely secular. There are a vast array of laws that directly contradict the teachings in the bible and thus God's will (i.e. laws regarding homosexuals, divorce, and other things considered blasphemous). Making the term "Christian Nation" ever more strange and obviously misplaced.

There is no legitimate reason to refer to this Nation as Christian.
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The vast majority of those who participated in the poll (Including me.) agree that the USA is not a Christian nation.

The Vatican is, but the USA isn't and never will be.
 
roguenuke said:
But while the majority may be able to deny rights for a short time, this is true even if those rights are already listed in the Constitution.

Nothing "grants" rights to people. The Constitution recognizes the rights of people. And only people willingness to fight for their rights and the willingness of others to either fight for those rights or against them. No rights are automatically guaranteed to a person, no matter who it is or where they think their rights come from.

I said no such thing. Just because you want to read that into what I said does not make it true. I said that in order to deny rights constitutionally to people, it requires much more than a simple majority. (Technically, a simple majority is simply greater than 50%, not 51% because even at 50.000001%, that is a majority.)
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the question is why, why , would anyone want to put the power of rights into the hands of people?

people, just as a single person can be tyrannical.

which is why rights are not in the hands of the people in America, that is not the government the founders created.

you and others wish to turn America in a full blown democracy, something completely opposed what was intended..........making America dangerous and doomed to fail.

if the founders has wanted such government they would have created such.....why do you and others think you are smarter about government then they are?

rights in the hands of the people is a very dangerous and terrible thing!....we have examples is America already.
 
ernst barkmann said:
the question is why, why , would anyone want to put the power of rights into the hands of people?

people, just as a single person can be tyrannical.

which is why rights are not in the hands of the people in America, that is not the government the founders created.

you and others wish to turn America in a full blown democracy, something completely opposed what was intended..........making America dangerous and doomed to fail.

if the founders has wanted such government they would have created such.....why do you and others think you are smarter about government then they are?

rights in the hands of the people is a very dangerous and terrible thing!....we have examples is America already.
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You really need to read what I have been saying or work on better comprehending people. The founders put the method into the Constitution to change the Constitution. Our rights are always in the hands of the people. Not recognizing this is a problem. As I said, in order to have your rights recognized you need to have enough people to support you or not enough people willing to fight against you having those rights.
 
marduc said:
There is a roadside BBQ place just down the road from me, I was driving home from the hardware store and it caught my eye, and I realized it was the weekend so it was open, so I turned around and payed a visit. It is basically little more than a trailer and a large smoker on the side of the road, but boy is it good!!

I Got 1/2 slab of ribs, 1/2 chicken, a pound of pulled pork, and when I got home I realized he threw some sausage in with it all as well. I am stuffed. I think I ate enough meat to offset 5 vegetarians or so today.
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Those little places are usually the best! I used to go to a fish & chip place that looked (literally) like an outhouse off Rt. 22 in Edison NJ. Best fresh fish & chips I've ever eaten, but I was surprised the board of health certified this place to serve food. (Correction - it may have been Springfield NJ, or Scotch Plains.... it was a while ago.)
 
*cringes away from the multitude of posts*

In answer to the OP/poll.

No.
 
The United States of America was founded by a Christian people, for a Christian people and several of the founders said so. Unfortunately, we live in a post-Christian society today where the faith, reason and honor guiding our founders is sorely lacking in this generation of Americans.

Americans would be wise to restore its Christian heritage and return to the principles of our founders - both politically and personally.
 
ChrisL said:
Really? Because Hitler was a person you know.
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So are those who wrote the Bible.

My reply to this directly is, so? Everyone wants to assume that any higher power that exists must be benevolent if He/She created us. Why? Why couldn't that higher power be a power hungry, egotistical, sexist, racist, sadist who likes to mess with us, treat us like play toys? Heck, God could be exactly like Hitler. We have no idea is the truth.
 
roguenuke said:
So are those who wrote the Bible.

My reply to this directly is, so? Everyone wants to assume that any higher power that exists must be benevolent if He/She created us. Why? Why couldn't that higher power be a power hungry, egotistical, sexist, racist, sadist who likes to mess with us, treat us like play toys? Heck, God could be exactly like Hitler. We have no idea is the truth.
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Well, if you knew anything about God, you would realize that He is above all human beings. He is not vulnerable to human sin.
 
ChrisL said:
Well, if you knew anything about God, you would realize that He is above all human beings. He is not vulnerable to human sin.
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That is your belief in God. It does not mean you are absolutely right. He could be just as vulnerable to human sin/vice as we are. That was my point. We cannot possibly truly know what any higher power is like because we are human. The information we get about God comes from other humans, who are fallible.
 
roguenuke said:
That is your belief in God. It does not mean you are absolutely right. He could be just as vulnerable to human sin/vice as we are. That was my point. We cannot possibly truly know what any higher power is like because we are human. The information we get about God comes from other humans, who are fallible.
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Lol! Well then who do you suggest? President Obama? :2razz:
 
ChrisL said:
Lol! Well then who do you suggest? President Obama? :2razz:
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Our rights are from the minds of many people, including the founders and those they based at least some of their ideas off of, our various Congresses and Presidents over the years, and many, many SCOTUS rulings. The people do have a lot of influence on these as well, in what they show support for or against when it comes to our laws and rights.

Rights aren't really set in stone for any of us. We are only going to get those rights we, as a collective, are willing to fight for in the case that they are being abused. Others in government may fight for them too, but it can't be guaranteed.
 
roguenuke said:
Our rights are from the minds of many people, including the founders and those they based at least some of their ideas off of, our various Congresses and Presidents over the years, and many, many SCOTUS rulings. The people do have a lot of influence on these as well, in what they show support for or against when it comes to our laws and rights.

Rights aren't really set in stone for any of us. We are only going to get those rights we, as a collective, are willing to fight for in the case that they are being abused. Others in government may fight for them too, but it can't be guaranteed.
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A lot of our rights are based on Christianity and the "word of God", such as the Ten Commandments. Of course, you can deny that, but it's true. That doesn't mean we are a "Christian" nation though. It just means that some of them just make sense.
 
ChrisL said:
A lot of our rights are based on Christianity and the "word of God", such as the Ten Commandments. Of course, you can deny that, but it's true. That doesn't mean we are a "Christian" nation though. It just means that some of them just make sense.
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No, they aren't. Our rights in no way come from the Ten Commandments. Show the connection if you believe this. I guarantee that you cannot connect our rights to the Ten Commandments, and you can only connect a few of our laws to the Ten Commandments in a very limited way, and cannot show that they are exclusively Christian values or even Abrahamic religion based values. The Ten Commandments are rules, not rights.

And those have made sense for numerous religions and cultures before and after Christianity.
 
roguenuke said:
No, they aren't. Our rights in no way come from the Ten Commandments. Show the connection if you believe this. I guarantee that you cannot connect our rights to the Ten Commandments, and you can only connect a few of our laws to the Ten Commandments in a very limited way, and cannot show that they are exclusively Christian values or even Abrahamic religion based values. The Ten Commandments are rules, not rights.

And those have made sense for numerous religions and cultures before and after Christianity.
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Exactly. :) You know I'm right. You just don't want to admit to it. Our founding fathers were, for the most part, Christians who believed in those principals.
 
ChrisL said:
Exactly. :) You know I'm right. You just don't want to admit to it. Our founding fathers were, for the most part, Christians who believed in those principals.
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Those aren't rights, those are laws. There is a difference. And those existed in cultures and societies that are not Christian. Many existed long before Christianity was ever a religion, or even before Judaism came about. There have been laws against killing of some kind (murder laws) for a very long time. Sumerians had murder laws. And they had laws against stealing. Other cultures had/have laws against lying of some form or another. We do not have laws against many of the other things, such as idolatry, not saying the lord's name in vain or worshiping the Ten Commandments' God above all others. In fact, about 3-5 of the Ten Commandments could not be put into laws because they would violate our rights guaranteed in the Constitution, particularly the 1st Amendment.
 
The U.S. is not a Christian nation. But the majority of its citizens are Christians.
 
roguenuke said:
Those aren't rights, those are laws. There is a difference. And those existed in cultures and societies that are not Christian. Many existed long before Christianity was ever a religion, or even before Judaism came about. There have been laws against killing of some kind (murder laws) for a very long time. Sumerians had murder laws. And they had laws against stealing. Other cultures had/have laws against lying of some form or another. We do not have laws against many of the other things, such as idolatry, not saying the lord's name in vain or worshiping the Ten Commandments' God above all others. In fact, about 3-5 of the Ten Commandments could not be put into laws because they would violate our rights guaranteed in the Constitution, particularly the 1st Amendment.
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Well, I never claimed that. You did and I agreed with you. Yes, we are talking about rights, which were outlined in the BoR. Many of them are based on Christian beliefs. Since our founders were mostly CHRISTIAN and not any of the other religions you mentioned, then yes, they are based upon Christian beliefs. I mean, really, this is just common sense. I don't understand your objection.
 
ChrisL said:
Well, I never claimed that. You did and I agreed with you. Yes, we are talking about rights, which were outlined in the BoR. Many of them are based on Christian beliefs. Since our founders were mostly CHRISTIAN and not any of the other religions you mentioned, then yes, they are based upon Christian beliefs. I mean, really, this is just common sense. I don't understand your objection.
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No, they aren't "Christian based beliefs" though. Just because someone is Christian, does not make everything they believe "Christian" in nature. Other people from other religious beliefs have thought of and believe that many of the ideals within the Constitution are good things to live by, the same way that many cultures and religions have had a main belief that people should "treat others as they wish to be treated", even long before Jesus said this. That belief was out there already. Jesus didn't invent it. Which means Christianity did not invent it.

Show me where in the Bible exactly that it says that a man can worship any God he wishes? Pretty sure one of the Ten Commandments, the very first one (plus the one on idolatry) contradict our very right to freedom of religion. Taking the lord's name in vain violates the right of freedom of speech. A person has a right to disobey and even dishonor their parents, for good reasons or bad, without punishment for that. You have a right to "covet" your neighbors stuff. In fact, this is a major factor in the success of capitalism. "Keeping up with the Jones'." As I've said, laws against killing of some kind (murder) have existed long before even Judaism, and killing someone violates their right to life, if it is considered "murder". Stealing violates a person's right to property. Lying is allowed, since it would violate our right to freedom of speech if it wasn't, up to it being able to cause significant harm to another person, such as in court or lying in some official capacity. Adultery laws which are used to criminalize sex outside of marital vows could likely never hold up in court now after the Lawrence decision. There are no fire arms in the Bible, and I doubt ownership of weaponry was ever really an issue covered directly by the Bible. Due process involves fairness at trials, and while likely mentioned in the Bible, was not actually practiced in Christian religions in general. It is a concept created by men, not the Bible or Christianity.

You are attempting to give a religion credit for the thoughts of men, for the ideas of men. That is wrong. The religion itself is not responsible for the ideas those men had. Plus, many of our founding fathers were deists, meaning that they didn't necessarily believe in everything the Bible or specific Christian denominations put out, said, believed. This, along with the fact that many more people have contributed to our ideals and rights in this country, which are not based on purely Christian beliefs, shows that our ideals do not come from Christianity. In fact, the South argued for a long time that they were completely morally fine with God in accordance with Biblical teachings in keeping slaves because such a practice is allowed in the Bible.

Oh, and you brought up the Ten Commandments, which are laws/rules, not rights. And, as I've pointed out, they are laws/rules in which many (at least half) violate guaranteed rights in the US Constitution.
 
roguenuke said:
No, they aren't "Christian based beliefs" though. Just because someone is Christian, does not make everything they believe "Christian" in nature. Other people from other religious beliefs have thought of and believe that many of the ideals within the Constitution are good things to live by, the same way that many cultures and religions have had a main belief that people should "treat others as they wish to be treated", even long before Jesus said this. That belief was out there already. Jesus didn't invent it. Which means Christianity did not invent it.

Show me where in the Bible exactly that it says that a man can worship any God he wishes? Pretty sure one of the Ten Commandments, the very first one (plus the one on idolatry) contradict our very right to freedom of religion. Taking the lord's name in vain violates the right of freedom of speech. A person has a right to disobey and even dishonor their parents, for good reasons or bad, without punishment for that. You have a right to "covet" your neighbors stuff. In fact, this is a major factor in the success of capitalism. "Keeping up with the Jones'." As I've said, laws against killing of some kind (murder) have existed long before even Judaism, and killing someone violates their right to life, if it is considered "murder". Stealing violates a person's right to property. Lying is allowed, since it would violate our right to freedom of speech if it wasn't, up to it being able to cause significant harm to another person, such as in court or lying in some official capacity. Adultery laws which are used to criminalize sex outside of marital vows could likely never hold up in court now after the Lawrence decision. There are no fire arms in the Bible, and I doubt ownership of weaponry was ever really an issue covered directly by the Bible. Due process involves fairness at trials, and while likely mentioned in the Bible, was not actually practiced in Christian religions in general. It is a concept created by men, not the Bible or Christianity.

You are attempting to give a religion credit for the thoughts of men, for the ideas of men. That is wrong. The religion itself is not responsible for the ideas those men had. Plus, many of our founding fathers were deists, meaning that they didn't necessarily believe in everything the Bible or specific Christian denominations put out, said, believed. This, along with the fact that many more people have contributed to our ideals and rights in this country, which are not based on purely Christian beliefs, shows that our ideals do not come from Christianity. In fact, the South argued for a long time that they were completely morally fine with God in accordance with Biblical teachings in keeping slaves because such a practice is allowed in the Bible.

Oh, and you brought up the Ten Commandments, which are laws/rules, not rights. And, as I've pointed out, they are laws/rules in which many (at least half) violate guaranteed rights in the US Constitution.
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Look, none of this changes the facts that the founders' beliefs were based upon Christian principals. Are you denying this or something? Just WHAT is your objection?

I brought up the Ten Commandments after you mentioned "laws." :lol: Go back and check for yourself. Then you went and said it isn't about "laws" but rights, and I agreed. Yes OUR rights here in America are based upon the founders' Christian beliefs. Sorry that seems to bother you so much.
 
ChrisL said:
Look, none of this changes the facts that the founders' beliefs were based upon Christian principals. Are you denying this or something? Just WHAT is your objection?

I brought up the Ten Commandments after you mentioned "laws." :lol: Go back and check for yourself. Then you went and said it isn't about "laws" but rights, and I agreed. Yes OUR rights here in America are based upon the founders' Christian beliefs. Sorry that seems to bother you so much.
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They weren't based on "Christian" principles just because they were Christians. I have proven this. The very First Amendment contradicts the first few (at least) Ten Commandments. They are not based on Christian beliefs. You may wish to believe this, but you cannot prove it.

And perhaps you should look at what you posted in that post where you brought up the Ten Commandments, because you were discussing rights and then mentioned the Ten Commandments as evidence of your beliefs.
 
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