The Greatest Empire in History

There's a thread bumping around about American exceptionalism, and a common theme in that thread is noting that many great nations have exceptionalist viewpoints and tendencies.

Over the course of the thread, one user posted a poem as a response to Rudyard Kipling's 'White Man's Burden', a sort of nod to American imperialism in the Philippines marking the US's transition from upstart colony to proper colonial power.

The poem is extremely well-done, and I am in total awe at how perfectly it nails the response to Kipling. It can be found here:

Ex-Conservative: The Judgment of Peers

You'll note that the poem evokes the imagery of the great empires of the world judging America on its imperial capability -- and this imagery got me thinking about the empires of the past.

So, Debate Politics, vote, for which you think the greatest empire in history was!



Your options, in chronological order:

The Persian Empire -- It gets a mention because it was the first empire in recorded history, and brought some pretty revolutionary ideas into common use, like codified law and local government.

The Roman Empire -- The ancient world's most extensive, and certainly most famous empire. Lasted for an exceptionally long time, especially if you think of the Byzantine Empire as a direct continuation of the Roman Empire, though this isn't well-advised, as the institutional differences between them were vast. Still, there's no doubting that Rome's literature, architecture, philosophy and engineering has made a lasting impression on Europe, and thus the world.

The Han Empire -- A shining page in Chinese history, in which figures from earlier ages like Confucius and Sun Tzu were mythified and spread across Asia. Impressive legal reforms and a (relatively) meritocratic examination system meant that all of East Asia, from Vietnam, to China, to Mongolia, to Korea to Japan all sought to emulate the Han Empire in the following centuries.

The Mayan Empire -- Though lost to history and the creep of the jungle, Mayan ruins still tell a story of a civilisation with unique ideas about cosmology and theology. It stretched over much of modern-day Mexico and Central America until the mysterious Mayan Collapse -- the reasons for which no one is quite sure.

The Mongol Empire -- Through the iron will of one fierce leader, the Mongols were the scourge of the Mediaeval world, and conquered southern Russia, Central Asia, the Middle East and even China. After Genghis Khan's death, the Mongols fractured into four 'hordes', evoking imagery of Alexander the Great's successor kingdoms. While the Mongols were eventually driven out by the Russians, Arabs and Persians, they managed to hold on to China for another century. Often depicted as an unstoppable horde of mounted warriors, what the Mongol Empire lacked in administrative capability, it made up for in strength of arms.

The Portuguese Empire -- The first global empire! Portuguese navigators sailed around the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn, and showed up in places as far apart as Brazil and Macau off of mainland China, with trading posts by way of Africa and India. Though her influence has waned tremendously, Portugal's exploration paved the way for the next six centuries of European colonialism.

The Spanish Empire -- At one point stretching from California to Florida to Argentina, Spain's legacy on the New World is unsurpassed in terms of demographics, culture and language. Spain's conquistadors brought about the apocalyptic destruction of the Incas and Aztecs; colonised the New World and sent traders around the Old; and by the time they were done Spain had become so rich that even a moderately wealthy hidalgo wouldn't work a day in his life. Not to say it was not without issues -- Bartolomeo de las Casas was an outspoken critic of Spain's brutal slavery and serfdom systems in the New World.

The Russian Empire -- The largest contiguous land empire in history (by most counts), the Russian Empire spanned the crown of the world from Alaska to Poland and Finland. An evocative image is the fact that if you were born in 1800, you were more likely than not to live somewhere to the south of the Russian Empire. Even more evocatively, this remains true today. An old and vast country, the Russian Empire inspired both a Northern European Renaissance in beautiful cities like St Petersburg, while remaining shockingly backwards for a European country, only abolishing serfdom in 1862 -- the year before the US abolished slavery.

The French Empire -- Often called the 'liberal empire' (though this may not seem like such a compliment to some at Debate Politics), revolutionary and Napoleonic France was an intellectual and military powerhouse. Not only did it conquer Europe with one hand and hold off the British with the other, it instituted sweeping revolutionary reform everywhere it went, and its legal system (Napoleon's Civil Law) is now the most widely used legal system on Earth. It was so powerful, both ideationally and practically, that even in defeat at the end of the Waterloo Campaign, it retained a seat at the council presiding over its own peace treaty.

The British Empire -- The largest empire the world has ever seen, conquering almost a third of the world and leaving its mark indelibly upon modern life. The architect of the Industrial Revolution, international diplomacy, modern civil reforms and labour laws, it is very true to say that we still live in the world created by the British Empire today. For more than a century it remained the foremost global power, administering and arbiting international disputes around the world. With territory on every continent on Earth, there was no corner of the globe that did not feel the power of the British Empire.


That's it guys, hope you liked the write-ups -- and go vote!

The Roman Empire, hands down, greatest empire ever. You can't even argue with this.

Then I'd vote for French and British empires.

French because the legacy of the Bonaparte conquests are things that are less visible today if you don't know what to look for but they are impacting us every day, like, the standardized metric system and driving on the correct side of the road. Ofc, there are many other heritages but these 2 are subtle and less known of.

And ofc, the British empire. The great colonizer and spreader of civilization. It industrialized itself via the industrial revolution and civilized the world and because of its global reach, it ended slavery in 1/3rd of the world directly. And ofc, English supplanted French for the first time in the west as the international language in the late late XIXth century.

The American Empire is the greatest in history. It's the only one that has ever truly been global.

The entire world is more or less "Americanized" today.

Rainman05 said:

The Roman Empire, hands down, greatest empire ever. You can't even argue with this.

Then I'd vote for French and British empires.

French because the legacy of the Bonaparte conquests are things that are less visible today if you don't know what to look for but they are impacting us every day, like, the standardized metric system and driving on the correct side of the road. Ofc, there are many other heritages but these 2 are subtle and less known of.

And ofc, the British empire. The great colonizer and spreader of civilization. It industrialized itself via the industrial revolution and civilized the world and because of its global reach, it ended slavery in 1/3rd of the world directly. And ofc, English supplanted French for the first time in the west as the international language in the late late XIXth century.

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I could absolutely argue against the Roman empire. Did their reach expand in to East Asia? The Americas?

Culturally, militarily, and economically, the United States is the most powerful country in the history of the world.

Peter Grimm said:

The American Empire is the greatest in history. It's the only one that has ever truly been global.

The entire world is more or less "Americanized" today.

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I think it could be equally (and more convincingly) argued that America is 'British' fundamentally in its culture and institutional history. Obviously not what you're wanting to hear, but I have to admit I think that America's global power is A) Significantly less than Britain's at its height and B) Fundamentally not dissimilar to British ideas of how the world should be. America is a product of Britain, directly, and 'Americanization' appears to me to have all the hallmarks of Britain's 'civilising' quest.

Plus, the British Empire was totally global, too.

Peter Grimm said:

I could absolutely argue against the Roman empire. Did their reach expand in to East Asia? The Americas?

Culturally, militarily, and economically, the United States is the most powerful country in the history of the world.

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In objective terms, certainly. But in historical context, certainly not!

In historical context, of the empires listed, all of them but the Mayan and Portuguese Empires were comparatively more powerful in their heyday.

Peter Grimm said:

I could absolutely argue against the Roman empire. Did their reach expand in to East Asia? The Americas?

Culturally, militarily, and economically, the United States is the most powerful country in the history of the world.

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yeah that's right, compare the USA today with a civilization that existed in a whole different era. In a pre-industrial revolution era.

Yeah, you sure are #1 all time. That comment proves it beyond doubt.



EDIT: This isn't an attempt to mock america or americans. But to mock the mentality of Peter Grimm and the likes of him.

The Roman Empire. No doubt in my mind.

I would argue that the Byzantine Empire is legitimately the Roman Empire. The Byzantines certainly saw themselves as Roman - even if they were Hellenistic - and the land itself was part of the empire. Rome existed for something close to 1800 years and was the dominant polity for at least half that time. Add to that the fact that even today we - and much of the western world - still feel their influence it's hard to argue against them as the greatest empire.

Peter Grimm said:

The American Empire is the greatest in history. It's the only one that has ever truly been global.

The entire world is more or less "Americanized" today.

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Rome was effectively global given what the known world looked like to them at the time.

And Americanized, quite frankly means Romanized to a large extent given how Rome influenced - and still influences - Europe and America

Ad_Captandum said:

I think it could be equally (and more convincingly) argued that America is 'British' fundamentally in its culture and institutional history. Obviously not what you're wanting to hear, but I have to admit I think that America's global power is A) Significantly less than Britain's at its height and B) Fundamentally not dissimilar to British ideas of how the world should be. America is a product of Britain, directly, and 'Americanization' appears to me to have all the hallmarks of Britain's 'civilising' quest.

Plus, the British Empire was totally global, too.

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First, I think America sucks in a lot of major ways so don't get the false impression that I'm over here rooting for "team America." Objectively and rationally, though, you'd have to be a fool not to see the influence America exerts on the rest of the world.

The majority of that influence is not centralized nor is it intentional. For example and incidentally, we are communicating via the internet (an American invention), hosted on an American server. You are probably listening to some form of modern music (jazz, blues, rock, hip hop, rap, etc all invented in America), or watching television (American invention), or enjoying indoor lighting (American), or driving your car (American) or flying a plane (American) etc etc etc.

A large part of America's greater influence relative to the other empires on your list is simply the fact that in the modern world, we are all much more connected. In the days of the Empire (British), someone in China or Saudi Arabia could be fairly insulated from British influence. Today, you can go to the most remote corners of the world, for example the jungles of Africa, and young men will listen to American rap music and wear t-shirts and jeans (American inventions both).

Some of America's influence and power is most certainly centralized and intentional. For example, I think we have something nutty like half the world's military spending or something like that. I'd have to check. Either way, it's ridiculous and overt hegemony. We control the world's energy supply, both via strategic military intervention, and also via control of the world's currency. Speaking of currency, over half of the world's gold resides in the United States.

The United States dominates two oceans, and takes up nearly an entire continent full of nearly every natural resource we could ever need. You can't compare that to even the British Empire at its height.

I would rank the British Empire at #2.


I think the best argument one could make for the Roman Empire is the lasting effects it's had on the world we live in today. Roman culture shaped Western European culture (and eastern, to an extent), which in turn shaped American culture.

So in that sense, it depends greatly on how you define "greatest." Relative to its own time, the Americans win. Taking in to consideration the cumulative and lingering effects of the empire, the Romans take the prize.

The British Empire clearly for me since it industrialised the world.


Roman empire was all but forgotten during the dark ages.

Gaius46 said:

Rome was effectively global given what the known world looked like to them at the time.

And Americanized, quite frankly means Romanized to a large extent given how Rome influenced - and still influences - Europe and America

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That such a large part of the world was unknown to them at the time is precisely why Rome's influence and power were weaker than America's current position.

Your second point is valid, and it begs the question whether in this poll we should consider the lasting influence of the empire, or simply its relative power at the time.

Rainman05 said:

yeah that's right, compare the USA today with a civilization that existed in a whole different era. In a pre-industrial revolution era.

Yeah, you sure are #1 all time. That comment proves it beyond doubt.

EDIT: This isn't an attempt to mock america or americans. But to mock the mentality of Peter Grimm and the likes of him.

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Your picture exemplifies precisely what I don't like about Americanization. The Walmart, microwave culture. I much prefer the cobblestone streets of Europe with its locally owned cafe's and charm.

I think the legacy America will leave on the world, what it will be most remembered for, is it's enterprising nature. Americans are distinctively commercial-minded, enterprising, entrepreneurial, and innovative.

Americans create, package, sell, and profit better than anyone in the history of the world; and that is both our biggest strength as well as our biggest weakness.

Soon as I caught the thread title, I thought 'Yep. Here we go. Europe vs America. Yay.'

Peter Grimm said:

First, I think America sucks in a lot of major ways so don't get the false impression that I'm over here rooting for "team America." Objectively and rationally, though, you'd have to be a fool not to see the influence America exerts on the rest of the world.

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Of course the US has huge influence over the rest of the world -- nobody is arguing there. I'm merely arguing that A) It's not that powerful relative to other powerful nations in context and B) Much of what you think is American influence is really European, specifically British influence, because the US is fundamentally an Anglo- European culture, as I'll prove forthwith.

Peter Grimm said:

The majority of that influence is not centralized nor is it intentional. For example and incidentally, we are communicating via the internet (an American invention), hosted on an American server.

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We're using the World Wide Web, which was developed by Briton Sir Tim Berners-Lee. The Internet itself I'm not sure you can really claim as a single invention; it's more a method of communication, like writing. Writing certainly had no single inventor -- it was a synergistic agreement and collaboration between many.

Still, I'd argue that Briton Donald Davies was the first to conceive of the idea that would become the Internet through his Mark I programme, based on packet-switched computer networking.

Peter Grimm said:

You are probably listening to some form of modern music (jazz, blues, rock, hip hop, rap, etc all invented in America),

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Equally I could be listening to ska, punk, folk, electronic, dubstep, house, trance, drum and bass, or reggae.

It is certainly true that the vast majority of music listened to around the world is not American, nor from any one country.

Peter Grimm said:

or watching television (American invention),

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Scottish invention, courtesy of John Logie Baird. Seriously, look at what the Scots have invented. It's actually crazy.

Peter Grimm said:

or enjoying indoor lighting (American),

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Another British invention, actually, courtesy of Humphry Davy, a Cornish guy, meaning they can finally be proud that Cornwall has done anything, ever. Though you'll get no argument from me that Thomas Edison made the *best* lightbulb of the era.

Peter Grimm said:

or driving your car (American)

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A French invention. Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot invented the first automobile that we could vaguely recognise as a car in 1769. You're probably thinking of Henry Ford, who very certainly did NOT invent the first car -- he popularised a particular type of production method for them.

Peter Grimm said:

or flying a plane (American) etc etc etc.

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This one I'll give you! I'm a big fan of the United States, and I don't mean to drag its name through the mud. I simply can't abide the idea that you think the US has done everything important ever -- not only does it devalue what other nations have contributed, it devalues your own country.

Peter Grimm said:

A large part of America's greater influence relative to the other empires on your list is simply the fact that in the modern world, we are all much more connected. In the days of the Empire (British), someone in China or Saudi Arabia could be fairly insulated from British influence. Today, you can go to the most remote corners of the world, for example the jungles of Africa, and young men will listen to American rap music and wear t-shirts and jeans (American inventions both).

Some of America's influence and power is most certainly centralized and intentional. For example, I think we have something nutty like half the world's military spending or something like that. I'd have to check. Either way, it's ridiculous and overt hegemony. We control the world's energy supply, both via strategic military intervention, and also via control of the world's currency. Speaking of currency, over half of the world's gold resides in the United States.

The United States dominates two oceans, and takes up nearly an entire continent full of nearly every natural resource we could ever need. You can't compare that to even the British Empire at its height.

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Well I certainly can compare that to the British Empire at its height! The British Empire at its height dominated ALL the world's oceans! And all the world's trade by sea, and all the world's stocks, and all the world's currency, and all the world's diplomatic affairs, and all the world's wars and conflicts, etc. etc.

Peter Grimm said:

I would rank the British Empire at #2.


I think the best argument one could make for the Roman Empire is the lasting effects it's had on the world we live in today. Roman culture shaped Western European culture (and eastern, to an extent), which in turn shaped American culture.

So in that sense, it depends greatly on how you define "greatest." Relative to its own time, the Americans win. Taking in to consideration the cumulative and lingering effects of the empire, the Romans take the prize.

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In essence, I think you do not understand the scope of the influence of the British Empire. America's influence truly pales in comparison -- though this is not an insult, I very much think of the US as something of a successor to Britain.

You're very wrong to think America's influence was actually anywhere near as pervasive as Britain's. You cite things (some of which just proved false) like American music, or American corporations. Britain does you one better on all of these charges and more:

Britain has given the world industrialism. The computer you're typing on? The chair you sit on? The house you live in? All because of Britain's truly unprecedented (in all of human history) decision to try something totally new instead of mercantilism and human labour.

Britain has given the world institutional organisation -- bureaucracy as we know it, in fact, is a product of Britain ruling half the world from one city on one island. The transport you take, the food you eat, the railroads and roads that service it all -- British.

Britain has given the world international diplomacy. The idea that nations can treat with each-other in a society of states is a direct product of the British Empire's meddling in the affairs of literally every nation on Earth.

The language you speak (English), the concepts you adore (democracy, the rule of law, sovereignty), the means by which your life operates (wage work, entrepreneurism, corporations), and the very society of nations that we find ourselves in (the UN, NATO, the EU, etc.) are all directly a product of the British Empire.

NoC_T said:

Soon as I caught the thread title, I thought 'Yep. Here we go. Europe vs America. Yay.'

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Thing is most Americans I speak to actually resent America being called an empire.

Ad_Captandum said:

Of course the US has huge influence over the rest of the world -- nobody is arguing there. I'm merely arguing that A) It's not that powerful relative to other powerful nations in context and B) Much of what you think is American influence is really European, specifically British influence, because the US is fundamentally an Anglo- European culture, as I'll prove forthwith.

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If American influence is really European due to our Anglo-European roots, then what is European is really Roman, due to the massive influence the Roman Empire had on shaping Europe.

Ad_Captandum said:

We're using the World Wide Web, which was developed by Briton Sir Tim Berners-Lee. The Internet itself I'm not sure you can really claim as a single invention; it's more a method of communication, like writing. Writing certainly had no single inventor -- it was a synergistic agreement and collaboration between many.

Still, I'd argue that Briton Donald Davies was the first to conceive of the idea that would become the Internet through his Mark I programme, based on packet-switched computer networking.

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The Internet was invented by Robert E Kahn and Vint Cerf, both Americans.

Ad_Captandum said:

Equally I could be listening to ska, punk, folk, electronic, dubstep, house, trance, drum and bass, or reggae.

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All but reggae are American inventions.

Peter Grimm said:

If American influence is really European due to our Anglo-European roots, then what is European is really Roman, due to the massive influence the Roman Empire had on shaping Europe.

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By the dark ages people had forgotten Rome and much of her ruins were not disocvered until much later. There is text in England which shows that many people thought that giants had built the massive structures left behind.

Ad_Captandum said:

Scottish invention, courtesy of John Logie Baird. Seriously, look at what the Scots have invented. It's actually crazy.

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They make great whiskey.

Still, television was invented by Philo Farnsworth, an American, and Charles Francis Jenkins, another American.

Peter Grimm said:

The Internet was invented by Robert E Kahn and Vint Cerf, both Americans.

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but they have publicly stated that "no one person or group of people" invented the Internet

Higgins86 said:

By the dark ages people had forgotten Rome and much of her ruins were not disocvered until much later. There is text in England which shows that many people thought that giants had built the massive structures left behind.

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I'm sure there are folks in rural Alabama that believe America built the pyramids, what's the point?

Roman influence on Europe is undeniable.

Peter Grimm said:

If American influence is really European due to our Anglo-European roots, then what is European is really Roman, due to the massive influence the Roman Empire had on shaping Europe.

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I think there's a strong argument for that, yes. But there's also a much, much more vast institutional gap between Rome-Britain and Britain-America. I definitely agree that much of Europe's history has been shaped by Rome, passed down across the centuries.

But the United States is directly and pervasively the child of the British Empire. Its institutions, legends, history, culture, language, beliefs, and mindset are all Britain's -- the US is a successor to Britain. Which is obvious, of course, because it was a British colony -- so there's no surprise there.

The difference lies in the institutional continuity. While William the Conqueror may have thought of Rome as some mythical and grandiose concept (or maybe not), even he, at the beginning of 'England', was 1000 years out from the heyday of the Roman Empire.

The US, by contrast, was directly moulded by the heyday of the British Empire, which I would say extends from 1815 to 1945, whence it ceased to be a superpower, and America took up the gauntlet. It was a direct successor and in fact continues close relations to this day.

Ancient England's relationship to Rome was nothing of the sort.

Ad_Captandum said:

Another British invention, actually, courtesy of Humphry Davy, a Cornish guy, meaning they can finally be proud that Cornwall has done anything, ever. Though you'll get no argument from me that Thomas Edison made the *best* lightbulb of the era.

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Thomas Edison, an American, invented the light bulb.