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Do you believe that America should pay reparations to African Americans?

Should we pay reparations to the African American community?

  • We should pay reparations to the African American communtiy

    Votes: 15 10.6%
  • We should not pay reparations to the African American community

    Votes: 126 89.4%

  • Total voters
    141
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I wonder if women on the whole welcome your view? Or any minority for that matter.

you didn't check the sarcasism of my post.

Basically the best you can get should be hired. No matter who they are.
 
if you didn't check it I was being sarcastic to B posts.

Well I thought I was agreeing with you because I thought you were right. :)

(It wouldn't be the first time I agreed with somebody who didn't exactly mean what I responded to. But if you were being sarcastic re Boo's position on this topic, then we could possibly be on the same page. This dang environment just doesn't accommodate the arched eyebrow, the wink, tonal inflection, body language, etc. A pity too.)
 
Sometimes a white male will be superior to everyone else in something. Sometimes a black one-legged dyslectic lesbian who is an ex-WAC will be superior to everyone else in something.

Standards that represent excellence in sports should not be lowered for the white guy who can't meet them even though the majority of those who meet the standards are black. Standards that represent excellence in police work or fire fighting or combat readiness should not be lowered because almost all the people who can meet them happen to be guys. Standards that represent excellence in academia should not be lowered because there is an over-representation of Asians who attain them.

Everybody should have opportunity to compete. But we diminish everybody if we lower standards to accommodate those who can't meet them no matter what their race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever. The only 'fair' society is one that demands excellence but attaches no more importance to skin color than it does eye color or hair color.

One. Not groups. And no one has called for lowering standards (though standards should be true standards).
 
And we SHOULD discriminate. We should ALL strive to be as bright, competent, capable, skilled, able, and qualified to achieve our goals as we can. And the brightest, most competent, most capable, most skilled, most able, and most qualified should be moved to the head of the line in all things--otherwise we diminish us all.

As I previously posted, I believe it was Walter Williams who said that the opportunity to try should be equal for everybody. And we, as Americans, have done a very good job in breaking down all institutional barriers that prevent anybody from trying. We have done a very good job in providing the opportunities. And the government can help with that. But nobody, not the government nor anybody else, can make somebody seize the opportunity that is available to them.

As Rocky Balboa meant in his speech: the person who believes he/she is inferior, no good, not capable, or chooses to succumb to victimization instead of rising above it, is doomed to be inferior, incapable, a victim their whole life. So a government who constantly tells a whole demographic of people that they are doomed to be inferior, incapable, victims unless big brother helps them out, has consigned those people to inferiority, inability, and victimization for generations. It is criminal. It should not stand. And if you are going to demand reparations from anybody, demand them from those who demand that we continue those indefensible policies.

That only works if none of the competitors were unfairly prohibited from proper training. If you take someone, lock them in a box and deprive them of food and what yet expect them to compete with everyone that has not been deprived in the same way then you don't really have a fair competition at all do you.

You're response smacks of the assumption that failure is a product of some shortcoming on their part instead of, in many cases, years of exploitation etc.
 
Te-Nehisi Coates' recent article in The Atlantic has raised a few eyebrows, and showed me just how much I did not know concerning how America and America's government has oppressed the African American community in the past...and even to the modern day.

Coates points out that reparations isn't a matter of "we can't afford it" or "how do we determine who gets paid how much", but a matter of right and wrong. America - and America's government - committed great wrongs against the African American community over many generations, including within my own lifetime.

I was raised to believe that if I did somebody wrong, I should apologize sincerely...and I should do my level best to make it up to those I wronged. I was taught that a refusal to make up for what I have done to others is not just wrong, but dishonorable.

It is for this reason that I agree that we as a nation should pay reparations to the African American community - because it is a matter of right and wrong, a matter of our national honor.

We clearly did something wrong. I don't think though that reparations would be an effective solution though. I think it would be likely to evolve into an excuse for more hatred and bigotry from the hateful and bigoted. It seems to make more sense to counter prejudice and inequality whenever and wherever we can and provide equal access to a decent education, jobs and housing.
 
Problem is - as the article points out - the wrong continues to this day, and to a greater extent than most of us know.

" The article " is full of it.

Absolutely full of it.
 
One. Not groups. And no one has called for lowering standards (though standards should be true standards).

I'm sorry, but a lot of NBA teams are made up of primarily GROUPS of a particular race, just as most professional boxers in the U.S. are black or Hispanic. Should the true standards be lowered to accommodate more white people or Asians? How about the standard for jockeys be changed so heavier people can participate in that sport?

In a color blind society, standards are set by the top tier of success achieved by those participating without regard to color, ethnicity, gender or whatever. It isn't unfair that more black people than white people can achieve the highest standard of excellence in the NBA. And it isn't unfair that more Asians than black or white people will probably achieve the highest excellence in math and science competitions. We shouldn't lower standards just to make it more racially or ethnic or gender equal. The only requirement should be that nobody is prohibited from trying by virtue of their race, ethnicity, or gender.
 
I didn't do anyone wrong- so I don't owe anyone an apology.

If you feel guilty for something which you did not do, then by all means, pay up, but don't expect everyone else to do the same.
While I am adamantly opposed to reparations, this particular argument is irrelevant and off-the-mark, IMO. *I* never did anything wrong, either, but the issue isn't really whether or not we as individuals did anything wrong, the issue is whether or not the government did something wrong, and whether we like it or not the government works in our name and with our complicit approval.
 
Te-Nehisi Coates' recent article in The Atlantic has raised a few eyebrows, and showed me just how much I did not know concerning how America and America's government has oppressed the African American community in the past...and even to the modern day.

Coates points out that reparations isn't a matter of "we can't afford it" or "how do we determine who gets paid how much", but a matter of right and wrong. America - and America's government - committed great wrongs against the African American community over many generations, including within my own lifetime.

I was raised to believe that if I did somebody wrong, I should apologize sincerely...and I should do my level best to make it up to those I wronged. I was taught that a refusal to make up for what I have done to others is not just wrong, but dishonorable.

It is for this reason that I agree that we as a nation should pay reparations to the African American community - because it is a matter of right and wrong, a matter of our national honor.
Yeah, but you're a sucker for that kind of white liberal guilt, anyway.
 
If we were to pay reparations, would that settle it? Would that make everything good? Could we then abolish all Affirmative Action programs because the issue has been resolved? Would the people who advocate for reparations, and complain about injustices of the past, shut the hell up?

It would almost be worth it if they'd shut the hell up.
 
Oh really? What about people who were forced to attend segregated schools? What about people who were denied employment simply because of the color of their skin?

Now you've opened it up to white people who didn't get the job simply because a lesser qualified minority candidate "needed" to get the job instead.
 
I quite agree that root causes are important, though we might disagree what they are. But leaving a people with no blue print, from a different place, with no history, no generational background with which to ground a people, and then declare it all their fault and no need to do anything at all? Well, that don't seem quite right.

And no Thomas Sowell is the poorest of sources. I've read his work. His degree is in economic and his social history is limited and different from many of his race.

However, the point here is that exceptions shouldn't lead the way. We need something that reaches many, and not just a few.
In other words, he's an independent thinker. That does seem to be taboo, especially in the black community. Pretty much any other race or ethnicity is allowed to assimilate just fine, but God forbid a black person do so, lest they be labeled an "Uncle Tom" or "Oreo" or some other degrading stereotype.
 
Yeah, but you're a sucker for that kind of white liberal guilt, anyway.

Y'know, my wife loves giving me guilt trips - especially since she knows they work so well.

Be that as it may, this is a matter of right and wrong on a national scale. Like I said, it's a matter of honor.

But on the other hand, while that may be my dispassionate view on a matter of right and wrong, I'm also realistic enough to know that such is politically impossible in America for the foreseeable future...and perhaps, if we reach a point where reparations are possible, our society will have matured to a point to where such are no longer necessary.

For some reason, I'm reminded of Merlin's line in the old (by today's standards) movie "Excalibur": "It is a dream that I have." But then later he says, "A dream for some...a nightmare for others!"

Man, I'm going off the rails - time to get to work...
 
Y'know, my wife loves giving me guilt trips - especially since she knows they work so well.

Be that as it may, this is a matter of right and wrong on a national scale. Like I said, it's a matter of honor.

But on the other hand, while that may be my dispassionate view on a matter of right and wrong, I'm also realistic enough to know that such is politically impossible in America for the foreseeable future...and perhaps, if we reach a point where reparations are possible, our society will have matured to a point to where such are no longer necessary.

For some reason, I'm reminded of Merlin's line in the old (by today's standards) movie "Excalibur": "It is a dream that I have." But then later he says, "A dream for some...a nightmare for others!"

Man, I'm going off the rails - time to get to work...
I have said before that I am fully against reparations. Having said that, I do not wholly discount the right/wrong/honor aspect.

Having said THAT, I have to ask the question: Would it do any good? That's a serious question. What would it accomplish? Would anything, at all, be "fixed"?

I believe there are two types of people who advocate reparations: 1) White liberals, and 2) Those seeking some free money. For those seeking the free money, their motivation is obvious. For the white liberals, it's more complicated. I grant that they feel their's is an honest gesture, but I also feel that... probably subconsciously... payments will literally absolve them of guilt that they feel. Bottom line, I do NOT believe that anything whatsoever will change. The feeling of oppression will remain (as will the complaining), as will the guilt (because nothing changed).
 
In other words, he's an independent thinker. That does seem to be taboo, especially in the black community. Pretty much any other race or ethnicity is allowed to assimilate just fine, but God forbid a black person do so, lest they be labeled an "Uncle Tom" or "Oreo" or some other degrading stereotype.

No, he's just out of his subject area and puts ideology over reasoning.
 
No, he's just out of his subject area and puts ideology over reasoning.
Two points/questions.

1) Are ideology and reasoning mutually exclusive?

2) What do you do for a living? And/or what official training do you have? Are you also "out of your subject area" on this topic? If so, why is your reasoning any better than his?
 
Two points/questions.

1) Are ideology and reasoning mutually exclusive?

2) What do you do for a living? And/or what official training do you have? Are you also "out of your subject area" on this topic? If so, why is your reasoning any better than his?

1) Not always, but when ideology overrides reasoning, as it does with him often, the balance is off.

2) I teach. Critical thinking among other things. And I've written nothing on this subject. Instead, I read those who are experts on this subject matter. I've even been able to run his ideas by a few schooled in this area.
 
1) Not always, but when ideology overrides reasoning, as it does with him often, the balance is off.

2) I teach. Critical thinking among other things. And I've written nothing on this subject. Instead, I read those who are experts on this subject matter. I've even been able to run his ideas by a few schooled in this area.

Help me with this then. When people deny the impact that environment and history have on how an adult sees the world and themselves the only other option I see for them to "blame" is biology. So when someone refuses to acknowledge the impact that hundreds of years of slavery and oppression have had on a group of people, to me they appear to be saying that any struggles that group has is do to some innate flaw and failing in them since biology is all that's left on the table.
 
Help me with this then. When people deny the impact that environment and history have on how an adult sees the world and themselves the only other option I see for them to "blame" is biology. So when someone refuses to acknowledge the impact that hundreds of years of slavery and oppression have had on a group of people, to me they appear to be saying that any struggles that group has is do to some innate flaw and failing in them since biology is all that's left on the table.

I read them much the same way.
 
I have said before that I am fully against reparations. Having said that, I do not wholly discount the right/wrong/honor aspect.

Having said THAT, I have to ask the question: Would it do any good? That's a serious question. What would it accomplish? Would anything, at all, be "fixed"?

I believe there are two types of people who advocate reparations: 1) White liberals, and 2) Those seeking some free money. For those seeking the free money, their motivation is obvious. For the white liberals, it's more complicated. I grant that they feel their's is an honest gesture, but I also feel that... probably subconsciously... payments will literally absolve them of guilt that they feel. Bottom line, I do NOT believe that anything whatsoever will change. The feeling of oppression will remain (as will the complaining), as will the guilt (because nothing changed).

And your last sentence is why, even though I think we should pay the reparations as a matter of honor, nothing will change.

There's a guy I've known for close to 30 years now. He's done my family wrong, and I did his wrong, too - it's a long story, but suffice it to say we really don't like each other. The only reason we speak to each other (and then it's only if we must) is because we are both strong members of the same Church. Anyway, when I realized that I had wronged him, I went to him and apologized...because that was the right thing to do. It didn't matter that he had done my family wrong - what mattered is that I had to get my personal record clean. To me, if I am wrong, I have to own up to it even if I've got reason to really not like the guy I'm apologizing to (there's caveats and limits, of course). But if the other guy can't own up to what he did wrong, that's his problem.

And that's why I support reparations - it's not a matter of "white guilt" - it's a matter of doing our part to make things right. If things aren't right after that point (and I agree with you that nothing will likely change), then we've still done our part.
 
And your last sentence is why, even though I think we should pay the reparations as a matter of honor, nothing will change.

There's a guy I've known for close to 30 years now. He's done my family wrong, and I did his wrong, too - it's a long story, but suffice it to say we really don't like each other. The only reason we speak to each other (and then it's only if we must) is because we are both strong members of the same Church. Anyway, when I realized that I had wronged him, I went to him and apologized...because that was the right thing to do. It didn't matter that he had done my family wrong - what mattered is that I had to get my personal record clean. To me, if I am wrong, I have to own up to it even if I've got reason to really not like the guy I'm apologizing to (there's caveats and limits, of course). But if the other guy can't own up to what he did wrong, that's his problem.

And that's why I support reparations - it's not a matter of "white guilt" - it's a matter of doing our part to make things right. If things aren't right after that point (and I agree with you that nothing will likely change), then we've still done our part.
As a matter of individual interpersonal relations I agree with you.

As a matter of public policy I cannot. Public policy needs to be more than simply assuaging one's guilt (sorry, I still see that as the core of the issue). Something needs to be gained, or else it's hollow.

Take immigration, for example. We have done amnesty, which is a form of saying "We were wrong, and we're doing 'x' to fix it. But, this is it. From now on you're obligated to the stated rules." Problem is, that wasn't it. It's been done again, and keeps getting demanded. In hindsight, what was the point?
 
As a matter of individual interpersonal relations I agree with you.

As a matter of public policy I cannot. Public policy needs to be more than simply assuaging one's guilt (sorry, I still see that as the core of the issue). Something needs to be gained, or else it's hollow.

Take immigration, for example. We have done amnesty, which is a form of saying "We were wrong, and we're doing 'x' to fix it. But, this is it. From now on you're obligated to the stated rules." Problem is, that wasn't it. It's been done again, and keeps getting demanded. In hindsight, what was the point?

Okay, let's address the immigration thing. We did amnesty - which I believed then and now was the right thing - and now we've got another illegal immigrant problem. It seems quite logical, then, to say that amnesty doesn't work, right?

Thing is, what can prevent illegal immigration? A wall? Hardly. Anyone who thinks a wall from the Pacific to the Gulf would stop illegal immigration doesn't know human beings. There is one thing and one thing only that will effectively end illegal immigration - if Mexico's economy is as prosperous (and as safe) as our own (or if ours is as bad as theirs, which is why we've had zero net immigration for the past few years). Unless we get their economy to be almost as prosperous as our own, we're always going to have an illegal immigration problem...which, according to the Chamber of Commerce, is something that requires immigration reform ASAP. It doesn't matter that Reagan's amnesty didn't fix the problem forever - it needs fixing again...and likely will twenty or thirty more years down the road.

So how does this apply to the debate on reparations? What we have done to African Americans was and continues to be a shame. If we pay reparations, those problems won't go away - in fact, it's possible they might worsen from the backlash from those who oppose reparations for whatever reason. But the problem is still there, and needs fixing...even with such a bubble-gum-and-bailing-wire solution as reparations. We can't allow the possibility that things won't improve or might even worsen stop us from doing what we can to make things better.
 
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