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Do you believe that America should pay reparations to African Americans?

Should we pay reparations to the African American community?

  • We should pay reparations to the African American communtiy

    Votes: 15 10.6%

  • We should not pay reparations to the African American community

    Votes: 126 89.4%
  • Total voters
    141
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Aunt Spiker said:
and here we are, 150 years later . . . and?

If whites and everyone else benefited then that means so have blacks - whether they descended from slaves or not doesn't even matter (because a lot have not - slavery is not the only means by which blacks have come to America).

You want to go further out into the ozone you can says things like 'the entire world benefited from slavery' because it was a worldwide economic concept. :shrug:
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The problem is that it did not end 150 years ago. Again, there are many blacks who are alive today that suffered from systemic government sponsored racism designed to psychologically cripple them.
 
MildSteel said:
The problem is that it did not end 150 years ago. Again, there are many blacks who are alive today that suffered from systemic government sponsored racism designed to psychologically cripple them.
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Racism existed before slavery was even practiced in the US - so the two things are separate, I believe.
 
Reparations will just never happen. It's a pipe dream. I voted for Obama and still very much know that.


The problem with any reparations is and always will be, Who is, exactly, "We" in the statement of "Should we pay reparations"?


The answer is every US taxpayer. Which means that every single African American, Mexican, Mixed race, Native American and Asian American would have their tax money being used for some giant "reparations" Federal Tax Payment just as whites would.

In other words, you'd be taking from the very people you'd be giving reparations to. Not only that, many in non-black minority communities don't want to pay for "black reparations".



Facts from a Federal Law vantage point:

-It would have to be a massive "Federal Reparations Tax on every single US citizen". Can you say "Political Suicide"? That Political party would instantly collapse because the whole reparations attempt would be a mess in even best of cases.

-It would be absolutely impossible to establish legally who should and shouldn't have to pay, hence every taxpayer would be forced to pay, hence undercutting the entire reparations concept legally and civil rights speaking.

-The final actual Federal Reparations Payment would be small. Probably not enough to buy a cheap used car.

-The Federal government would never be able to legally establish with any legal validity who would actually receive a "Reparations Check". It would be impossible legally without creating a system rivaling Jim Crow or 1 drop rule esq systems, all of which would be highly illegal.

-It's very likely that many tens of thousands, if not more, African Americans would be victimized by other minorities that felt "cheated" by not receiving reparations. Think Civil Rights Era all over except Latinos, Blacks instead of whites.
 
MildSteel said:
It's not a matter against standing against some random person. It's just that the government itself sponsored the racism. It was very cruel. I could tell you some far out stories that my grandfather told me. I'm from an area where the KKK is still big to this very day.
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I stand against the KKK. I'm with you here, but I don't need to give you money because idiots exist. Aren't the black panthers still around? What about Black gangs that intimidate and cause psychological harm and fear? Do you want to pay for the BS they are subjecting people to? silly huh?
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Racism existed before slavery was even practiced in the US - so the two things are separate, I believe.
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I'm talking about systemic government racism that existed in the US that was designed to psychologically cripple blacks. I saw it in my grandfather. He was afraid of white people. That is the truth. He did not like Martin Luther King at all, thought he was very dangerous and was a trouble maker. You should have heard some of the stories he told me. Stories about blacks being tortured and killed right on the main street of town in broad daylight.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Te-Nehisi Coates' recent article in The Atlantic has raised a few eyebrows, and showed me just how much I did not know concerning how America and America's government has oppressed the African American community in the past...and even to the modern day.

Coates points out that reparations isn't a matter of "we can't afford it" or "how do we determine who gets paid how much", but a matter of right and wrong. America - and America's government - committed great wrongs against the African American community over many generations, including within my own lifetime.

I was raised to believe that if I did somebody wrong, I should apologize sincerely...and I should do my level best to make it up to those I wronged. I was taught that a refusal to make up for what I have done to others is not just wrong, but dishonorable.

It is for this reason that I agree that we as a nation should pay reparations to the African American community - because it is a matter of right and wrong, a matter of our national honor.
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I cannot imagine anything that would inflame racial enmity more than reparations. It would be catastrophic in its ability to drive an invigorated racial wedge into American society. This would be disastrous.
 
MildSteel said:
I'm talking about systemic government racism that existed in the US that was designed to psychologically cripple blacks. I saw it in my grandfather. He was afraid of white people. That is the truth. He did not like Martin Luther King at all, thought he was very dangerous and was a trouble maker. You should have heard some of the stories he told me. Stories about blacks being tortured and killed right on the main street of town in broad daylight.
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Sorry - we were just talking about this in another thread so I got my already-written points confused.

We've done quite a few things over the decades to try to redirect the path and address various damages and errors. The fact that none of these efforts are appreciated by some people shows that even throwing money at them won't matter. Some people will always think it a smart, wise idea - and even if we did do it and pay every black man, woman, and child 5,000 in cold hard cash it wouldn't alter a single thing.

Money will not fix any of the issues in our country today.
 
johndylan1 said:
I stand against the KKK. I'm with you here, but I don't need to give you money because idiots exist. Aren't the black panthers still around? What about Black gangs that intimidate and cause psychological harm and fear? Do you want to pay for the BS they are subjecting people to? silly huh?
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My grandfather told me that his grandfather had his land taken by a white man after he labored years cultivating it and turning it into something beautiful. He said his grandfather went to the police and they told him there was nothing they could do because it was a white man who took the land. He said it totally destroyed his grandfather. That's what he told me. My grandfather was very afraid of white people.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Sorry - we were just talking about this in another thread so I got my already-written points confused.

We've done quite a few things over the decades to try to redirect the path and address various damages and errors. The fact that none of these efforts are appreciated by some people shows that even throwing money at them won't matter. Some people will always think it a smart, wise idea - and even if we did do it and pay every black man, woman, and child 5,000 in cold hard cash it wouldn't alter a single thing.

Money will not fix any of the issues in our country today.
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Well, it's not going to happen because the fact of the matter is that people don't care. I'm just saying there is a legitimate case to be made for it.
 
MildSteel said:
My grandfather told me that his grandfather had his land taken by a white man after he labored years cultivating it and turning it into something beautiful. He said his grandfather went to the police and they told him there was nothing they could do because it was a white man who took the land. He said it totally destroyed his grandfather. That's what he told me. My grandfather was very afraid of white people.
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I do not doubt for one minute that was the case. I am truly sorry to hear that your GR. GR. Grandfather was mistreated. If you were to Identify the land and if the the thief still resided there I would stand on your side in extracting a fair market value of the day adjusted for inflation from him. But no responsible party exists. The land is scattered with all manner of past injustices, at some point one must turn away from the historical wrongs and look forward to creating historical rights.
 
MildSteel said:
Well, it's not going to happen because the fact of the matter is that people don't care. I'm just saying there is a legitimate case to be made for it.
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There's no case to be made. The idea is founded on ignorance, greed, and self-victimization.
 
MildSteel said:
My grandfather told me that his grandfather had his land taken by a white man after he labored years cultivating it and turning it into something beautiful. He said his grandfather went to the police and they told him there was nothing they could do because it was a white man who took the land. He said it totally destroyed his grandfather. That's what he told me. My grandfather was very afraid of white people.
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BTW. I believe there are some white folks who are afraid of blacks too. That is not a reason to demand money from blacks is it?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
If the nation as a whole did something wrong, is it not our duty as a nation to right that wrong?
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If that is the case, then 'the nation' went to war and righted the wrong. And provided support and assistance and programs since that time.

What is your suggestion for 'reparations?' Money?

We have plenty of Native American tribes that get small and large $$ stipends, weekly, monthly.....that money is often wasted and does not benefit them in the larger sense. The tribes try to control it more now so that it does not just get 'blown thru.'

Handing out money to individuals....is that the idea? Maybe it's not so I wont waste time going into it further. But I can if that's what you have in mind.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Te-Nehisi Coates' recent article in The Atlantic has raised a few eyebrows, and showed me just how much I did not know concerning how America and America's government has oppressed the African American community in the past...and even to the modern day.

Coates points out that reparations isn't a matter of "we can't afford it" or "how do we determine who gets paid how much", but a matter of right and wrong. America - and America's government - committed great wrongs against the African American community over many generations, including within my own lifetime.

I was raised to believe that if I did somebody wrong, I should apologize sincerely...and I should do my level best to make it up to those I wronged. I was taught that a refusal to make up for what I have done to others is not just wrong, but dishonorable.

It is for this reason that I agree that we as a nation should pay reparations to the African American community - because it is a matter of right and wrong, a matter of our national honor.
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I added emphasis.

I have never done anything to anyone. My parents either. My grandparents came from Ireland where there was MUCH worse treatment (at that time) than not being able to sit at the counter with Whitey.

The fact is that ethnic slavery is nearly 7 times MORE prevalent now than in 1861 America.

How we could "repay" these debts would be to work, collectively black white etc, to stamp out the CONTINUING scourge of ethnic slavery.

But maybe more important would be stamping out economic slavery. (read Disposable People by Kevin Bales)
 
clownboy said:
No more than we should pay those of Irish, Italian, Mexican and Chinese descent. This is where PC screws everything up, there are very few true "African Americans", if any since we only recently began allowing dual citizenship. Munging the language causes this sort of nonsense.
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Good point. Those Africans that have come from Africa in the past say...15 years...would they get reparations?

Slavery lasted for only 70 some years in the USA. It lasted for centuries under Europeans should there be a proportinal cut paid by them?

Should the West African groups who actually enslaved those people have some accountability?

Should the black slave-owner's descendants pay reparations?

And since we are handing these out where is the line for those caught in the Irish Diaspora? My great-grandfather was murdered in his home 1899 (not part of the diaspora), in front of his wife and 9 children by British soldiers for daring to advocate for Home Rule (Ireland). But I might not exist, and in such a GREAT country, so maybe I should make reparations to the British for the 7 bullets they put into Seamus' chest? I Could, adjusted for inflation, reimburse the cost of the bullets? The time of the soldiers?
 
Would the descendants of slave-owner's pay it? They are the ones who ostensibly benefitted.

The Irish were taken directly off the boats of East Coast ports and forced to fight the American Civil War..you ever hear of the draft riots?

They were forced to fight to free a CHEAPER labor source than them!

Another reason why the Irish should be compensated.

Now, I am honest...this wasn't the case for my family...they came much later but not all Irish people would be so faithful to their stories.
 
MildSteel said:
Oh really? I never got a dime.
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It wasn't necessarily money directly given to people, but in social programs like affirmative action.
 
MildSteel said:
Well, it's not going to happen because the fact of the matter is that people don't care. I'm just saying there is a legitimate case to be made for it.
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Should we pay Jews whose ancestors were in the holocaust? Should we pay the Irish for the horrible animosity they received when they arrived in the 19th century? Should we pay the Native Americans for what happened to their ancestors?

When you open up such a ridiculous concept as paying people free money for something that happened to their ancestors, especially ancestors they had no chance of ever meeting or knowing, you open up about a million different types of people you're going to have to pay. Where is this "free money" coming from and why do you think you deserve it from me? Have I wronged you in some way? Be specific.
 
Continuing to cart out the reparations theme is as wrong as saying "the check is in the mail."
 
Aunt Spiker said:
There's no case to be made. The idea is founded on ignorance, greed, and self-victimization.
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That response is to be expected. In the big scheme of things nothing will be wasted. It has been said you will not come out until you have paid the utmost farthing, and he that puts someone into captivity will be put into captivity. Therefore this poem was composed long ago

What's due to him a man receives
This law no man can break
My heart is neither sad nor grieves
For what is mine no man can take

I will leave it at that. Nothing else needs to be said.
 
MildSteel said:
That response is to be expected. In the big scheme of things nothing will be wasted. It has been said you will not come out until you have paid the utmost farthing, and he that puts someone into captivity will be put into captivity. Therefore this poem was composed long ago

What's due to him a man receives
This law no man can break
My heart is neither sad nor grieves
For what is mine no man can take

I will leave it at that. Nothing else needs to be said.
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That poem seems to be speaking against your view.

Money won't fix things - no matter what people think.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
That poem seems to be speaking against your view.

Money won't fix things - no matter what people think.
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That's a typical superficial analysis that have gotten many, many people in big trouble. Genghis Khan is an example.

No, what it means is that it's good for the person who is trying to make amends.

But that is another waste of breath on my part. Sometimes, the belt has to do the talking. Here's some sanskrit

cintam aparimeyam

cintam means fears and anxieties. aparimeyam means unmeasurable. So cintan aparimeyam means that the result is being placed, by force, into a situation in which there is the experience of unlimited fear and anxiety, due to being bound by a very strong network of hundreds of thousands of desires. The result is hate which causes more suffering. It is like quicksand.
 
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MildSteel said:
That's a typical superficial analysis that have gotten many, many people in big trouble. Genghis Khan is an example.

No, what it means is that it's good for the person who is trying to make amends.

But that is another waste of breath on my part. Sometimes, the belt has to do the talking. Here's some sanskrit

cintam aparimeyam

cintam means fears and anxieties. aparimeyam means unmeasurable. So cintan aparimeyam means that the result is being placed, by force, into a situation in which there is the experience of unlimited fear and anxiety, due to being bound by a very strong network of hundreds of thousands of desires. The result is hate which causes more suffering. It is like quicksand.
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This is where we're off:

You think that reparations in the form of money is the only option on the table.

I don't. I believe we can - and should - address such wrongs.

We do so, actually, in large scale. However: these large-scale measures aren't called reparations (instead they're a matter of laws, enforcing equal treatment, enabling those who are less fortunate to succeed in life with financial support if needed) and many don't come in the form of money

However: you're not paying attention to these. You're ignoring the cultural and social shifts. You're ignoring the many things we have done with an effort to correct such wrongs.

You're still only looking at money. You're wanting to boil it down to a matter of finances - and that's not how things work. That's not where the issues are.

I don't know what else to say or do to make this more clear: money will not fix anything. Certainly not when a lot of the people that money would be given to are active tax paying members of the society that's giving it to them.
 
MildSteel said:
That's a typical superficial analysis that have gotten many, many people in big trouble. Genghis Khan is an example.

No, what it means is that it's good for the person who is trying to make amends.

But that is another waste of breath on my part. Sometimes, the belt has to do the talking. Here's some sanskrit
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So you're saying we should make reparations to make white people feel better? Or to 'benefit' whites, as a positive action?

I find it disturbing that there are people that wish to impose their own *choice* to feel guilt on others.

We cant change history and we were not able...and can never...hold all those who were responsible for slavery accountable. That is not possible. I'm not going to accept their mantle of guilt however.
 
anonymous polls suck. I want to know who the four are that voted "yes"
 
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