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Dropping out of school

Should we force kids to finish 12th grade?


  • Total voters
    42
From a very early age, we implied to our children that a bachelors degree
was almost compulsory.
That said I have a lot of respect for the State Technical Schools.
It might be worth looking at what the English do, with the test levels
vectoring kids to vocational programs or University,
(I don't know much about it, but some of the best engineers I have met came out of that system)
 
I'm of the belief that if a person drops out of school, they can still be successful, not like Bernie Madoff, but a real success. If a person has the drive and ambition to earn more money to purchase life's necessities, why not?

I have heard on MSM that many college educated people are out of work.

Back in the mid 80's, my cousin had a degree for teaching, he worked flipping burgers, washing cars, and doing odd jobs, living with mom & pop, til he was finally offered a teaching job, 5 years of that BS.


It's not a question of whether or not someone can make money without a college degree. It's a fact that college makes it much easier to do so.
 
It's not a question of whether or not someone can make money without a college degree. It's a fact that college makes it much easier to do so.

I know college educated people can earn more. I like Longview's post best so far. For dropouts, vocational, trade, or technical schools, people who drop out can still obtain a GED, so dropping out is not a life ending experience.
 
I know college educated people can earn more. I like Longview's post best so far. For dropouts, vocational, trade, or technical schools, people who drop out can still obtain a GED, so dropping out is not a life ending experience.

while it is not expected to be a life ending experience it is a quality of life ending experience for most of them
these graphs pre-date the notso great recession. i would anticipate the pain felt today by dropouts exceeds even what these graphs depict

graph earnings by education level.jpg

graph unemployment rate by education level .jpg

and here is one which has implications for us all. single parent status by education level. there is a strong correlation between single parenthood and being a welfare recipient

graph single parent by education level.jpg

if we want to mitigate welfare, incarceration, poverty, then we should do whatever we can to assure our minors graduate from high school
 
while it is not expected to be a life ending experience it is a quality of life ending experience for most of them
these graphs pre-date the notso great recession. i would anticipate the pain felt today by dropouts exceeds even what these graphs depict

View attachment 67167177

View attachment 67167178

and here is one which has implications for us all. single parent status by education level. there is a strong correlation between single parenthood and being a welfare recipient

View attachment 67167179

if we want to mitigate welfare, incarceration, poverty, then we should do whatever we can to assure our minors graduate from high school
Short of force.

You can make a child go to school, but you cannot make the child learn.

Same thing with horses, you can lead them to water, but you.....

nevermind.

I'd like someone here to tell me how a single parent, like a mother can FORCE her child or children to attend school? When children become truants, parents are the scapegoat and are gone after with unjust diligence, how does that solve a problem? Fine or incarcerate the parent? then what?

A close relative of mine had two boys, he'd drop them off at the front doors of the school, he'd put the car in drive, round the corner, and his boys were walking out the back doors of the school. What's the answer? How do you apply force?

I never had problems with my children cutting school or dropping out. But, I did work with mine, when they did homework, I'd sit down near them and if they had questions, I helped them figure it out. Maybe that's what needs to happen. Parents need to be more involved with a child's curriculum?
 
no. they did not
until the GI bill became available to veterans after WWII, a college education was the privy of the elite and those very academically gifted, who often attended only because of offered scholarships
it was not until the advent of the GI bill that college enrollments boomed
the graphs would not load but you can see them here: History of U.S. Higher Education | Education Advisor

When people talk about "public education," they aren't talking about a college degree; they're talking about completion of secondary schooling.
 
Well I either want to be a professor or look into law so they have worth there

And that was half my point (the other half being that even if you were pressured by your parents toward that first degree, it surely was your own choice to earn the second). I too have "worthless" degrees, and it cracks me up when I read posts here at DP about those degrees from folks who don't know what they're talking about. ;)
 
Should the ability to drop out of high school be allowed? Or should we start forcing students to attend school until they pass 12th grade? (note: this only applies to 17 and younger as adults should be making their own choices)

Personally I think that we should force them to continue through 12th grade. It is pretty much a requirement in this day and age that people have at least a 12th grade education just to get a job slightly above minimum wage.

I think that due to the fact that there is so much more to learn, we should not only require students to finish 12th grade, but we must get rid of summer breaks (teachers spend the entire first month of every school year reteaching what the kids forgot over the summer), and we should provide free schooling up to two years of college - call it 13th and 14th grades, if you want. It would be politically and socially very difficult to require those two extra years, but we can make it available if the kids would choose to go to them.
 
One troubling thing that I saw a few times was students on the edge of the drop-out age and had checked out. They sold themselves into believing that 16 was enough, and at the age of 14-15 they've had it. No more effort. The false premise of freedom was enough for them, and I saw their weekly assignments just plummet and any interventions tank. Meanwhile, I knew what the statistics were. Again, multi-decade systemic failure and criminality was within reach, even though it didn't need to be.

Whether or not mandating full participation until the age of 18 or 21 will statistically improve matters is quite honestly up for debate. A cavalier attitude, on the other hand, is almost as bad.

I remember in 4th grade there were some who had checked out and were just distractions. It's also hard to motivate teenagers sometimes, regardless of drop out age. I'm sure you're right that there are some like that, but it seems to me that forcing them to stay to 18 will just result in them adopting the same attitude at 16-17. So just delaying the inevitable and at taxpayer expense
 
There's a great distance between 'forcing' a kid to go to school and providing incentives, motivation, and a responsible upbringing to encourage them to continue.

A kid doesnt decide overnite to drop out. The parents should be on top of their kid's progress and interests their entire education.
 
Kids have been a distraction in school since the beginning of school.



It's a lot easier to get a job with a diploma, than without. That's how that "magical piece of paper" works, you know.

Yes but you know very well some are a bigger distraction than others. Those with no desire to learn especially.

You have to compare the same person getting a diploma or not. Even if that were true, should it be the case that enduring 11-12th grade makes a person more employable? What qualities does that same person gain that they couldn't at home?
 
no. they did not
until the GI bill became available to veterans after WWII, a college education was the privy of the elite and those very academically gifted, who often attended only because of offered scholarships
it was not until the advent of the GI bill that college enrollments boomed
the graphs would not load but you can see them here: History of U.S. Higher Education | Education Advisor

"Public education". K to 12. Got it?
 
What claim, all I did was post a link. That's the problem with cons, they're always trying to ram **** down people's throats and putting words in other people's mouths.

You posted a claim that somehow, 5 people who dropped out of school and became millionaires means anything considering the average 1.2 million students that drop out of school each year. If your link didn't mean anything, why did you post it?
 
no. they did not
until the GI bill became available to veterans after WWII, a college education was the privy of the elite and those very academically gifted, who often attended only because of offered scholarships
it was not until the advent of the GI bill that college enrollments boomed
the graphs would not load but you can see them here: History of U.S. Higher Education | Education Advisor

We are talking about high school, not college. Try to keep up.
 
You posted a claim that somehow, 5 people who dropped out of school and became millionaires means anything considering the average 1.2 million students that drop out of school each year. If your link didn't mean anything, why did you post it?

To prove you do not need to have finished HS or college, all you need to do is be bright, sharp, and have the desire to be successful.

1.2 million isn't that many people when you consider the drop out rate has steadily been declining since 1990.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=16
 
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To prove you do not need to have finished HS or college, all you need to do is be bright, sharp, and have the desire to be successful.

You likely need to be extraordinary in all categories including extraordinary luck. For all intents and purposes you do need the education to get any hope of that.
 
I always felt that way until a good acquaintance of mine dropped out less than two years ago as a junior and he's now looking for a house and he's about to get married. He's doing well without going through 12th grade. While everybody else's life after dropping out may not be as good, I feel like there some other solution rather than the blanket idea of "Everybody stays in school."

I guess my choice is "other" but I don't have a strong grasp on what the alternative choice should be.
 
You likely need to be extraordinary in all categories including extraordinary luck. For all intents and purposes you do need the education to get any hope of that.

I agree, education helps people to succeed, but not all.

The OP suggested forcing children to attend through grade 12. I've already given my point of view on that earlier in this thread.

I'd like to know how you force someone to do anything they don't want to do. What does the OP have in mind for the type of force
needed?
 
I wouldn't force them, but we ought to do a better job at keeping the doors open for older people who have dropped out, realized it was a huge mistake and are ready to come back and learn.
 
I wouldn't force them, but we ought to do a better job at keeping the doors open for older people who have dropped out, realized it was a huge mistake and are ready to come back and learn.

Amen, brutha. That includes people who have GEDs. It shouldn't be discriminated against, because I guarantee there are a lot of high school graduates who couldn't pass a GED. It is hard.
 
To prove you do not need to have finished HS or college, all you need to do is be bright, sharp, and have the desire to be successful.

No, you don't have to but for the vast majority of people, the only path to success is through finishing school. High school graduates make, on average, $200,000 more than dropouts through their careers and college graduates make over a million more. 75% of crimes are committed by high school dropouts. Just pointing to a couple of outliers does not prove the idea is false.
 
i don't think forcing would be required if the schools were doing their jobs.

I dont think forcing would be required if parents were doing their jobs. Both are responsible but IMO the lion's share belongs with the parents.
 
No, you don't have to but for the vast majority of people, the only path to success is through finishing school. High school graduates make, on average, $200,000 more than dropouts through their careers and college graduates make over a million more. 75% of crimes are committed by high school dropouts. Just pointing to a couple of outliers does not prove the idea is false.
[emphasis added by bubba]
good call:
We are talking about high school, not college. Try to keep up.
 
Should the ability to drop out of high school be allowed? Or should we start forcing students to attend school until they pass 12th grade? (note: this only applies to 17 and younger as adults should be making their own choices)

Personally I think that we should force them to continue through 12th grade. It is pretty much a requirement in this day and age that people have at least a 12th grade education just to get a job slightly above minimum wage.


I say yes unless they get a Good Enough Degree.Most jobs require a high school diploma.By allowing someone to not complete high school we are essentially creating a future state dependent.
 
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