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Dropping out of school

Should we force kids to finish 12th grade?

  • Yes, we should force kids to finish 12th Grade

    Votes: 12 28.6%

  • No, we should NOT force kids to finish 12th Grade

    Votes: 20 47.6%

  • Other, please explain.

    Votes: 10 23.8%
  • Total voters
    42
Cephus said:
It depends on what you mean by "force". I think we ought to provide negative consequences for not graduating from high school, they ought to suffer if they decide not to get an education because an education is the best way to make them financially self-sufficient that we have. If you want to drop out, fine, but I don't think you should be able to get any social services if you do and parents of children that drop out should not get any welfare money for them. As far as I'm concerned, school is their job. Quitting their job ought to mean they stop getting a "paycheck". Don't like that? Don't drop out.
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Probably won't be a very effective deterrent since food stamps for example means ramon noodles every day and what happens if it did make a huge diff? It just sounds like 1830s england or 2000s detroit or something: Drop outs starve > commit crime to survive > end up in jail at even greater cost to taxpayers.
 
Helix said:
while i disagree with your hyperbolic example, it beats being subjected to indentured servitude at some unskilled job and not taking one's education as far as one can. i just see very little benefit in allowing anyone to drop out of high school. sure, offer a vocational tract instead, but at least require graduation.
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Pretty much my whole extended family was a high school grad and employed their whole lives at "indentured servitude at unskilled job," when they weren't laid off and on unemployment. Some at least attempted college. I'm well aware that a diploma is good for minimum wage factory work via temp agency in most cases.
 
LadyMoonlight said:
Currently in New South Wales, a student must stay at school until they are 17 or prove they have a job. It is a pointless exercise to make students stay at school if they don't want to be there. I have classes with students who just disrupt the learning of their peers because they are too lazy to do any work, have no interest in doing in work, haven't done any work for years and have been shoved through the system.

I also am in favour of a three level high school as they do in Europe; one for those students who will go to uni, one for those students who will go into a trade or who are not bright enough for uni (not that intelligence is a pre requisite these days) and one for those who have no interest in learning and should be trained in such life style skills such as filling out forms, managing on a low income etc.

When we get back to teaching instead of baby sitting as we are most of the time now, things will change for the better.
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Yeah you just described half my graduating class. I still shudder when thinking of Algebra 2, most days spent watching movies or playing bingo cause the other kids couldn't stand math but were forced to be there.

I've never heard of this Europe tier system, but it sounds worth trying at least.
 
chromium said:
Pretty much my whole extended family was a high school grad and employed their whole lives at "indentured servitude at unskilled job," when they weren't laid off and on unemployment. Some at least attempted college. I'm well aware that a diploma is good for minimum wage factory work via temp agency in most cases.
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once again, i see no benefit in allowing students to quit before high school graduation.
 
Helix said:
once again, i see no benefit in allowing students to quit before high school graduation.
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Others already explained it, you can't force kids who don't want to learn to do so. They become a distraction to everyone else and those 2 years you want to force on them are, i believe in most cases, taxpayer $ better spent elsewhere.
 
chromium said:
Others already explained it, you can't force kids who don't want to learn to do so. They become a distraction to everyone else and those 2 years you want to force on them are, i believe in most cases, taxpayer $ better spent elsewhere.
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considering that we as a society are going to have to support or subsidize those who drop out, yes, we can demand a minimal level of education or vocational training.
 
your going to employ the Chinaman anyway, so what differece does the US Citizens education matter?
 
chromium said:
Others already explained it, you can't force kids who don't want to learn to do so. They become a distraction to everyone else and those 2 years you want to force on them are, i believe in most cases, taxpayer $ better spent elsewhere.
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One troubling thing that I saw a few times was students on the edge of the drop-out age and had checked out. They sold themselves into believing that 16 was enough, and at the age of 14-15 they've had it. No more effort. The false premise of freedom was enough for them, and I saw their weekly assignments just plummet and any interventions tank. Meanwhile, I knew what the statistics were. Again, multi-decade systemic failure and criminality was within reach, even though it didn't need to be.

Whether or not mandating full participation until the age of 18 or 21 will statistically improve matters is quite honestly up for debate. A cavalier attitude, on the other hand, is almost as bad.
 
274ina said:
your going to employ the Chinaman anyway, so what differece does the US Citizens education matter?
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Because educated, skilled labor trumps uneducated, unkilled labor any day of the week. It is more efficient. Well educated workers could outproduce the Chinese. Of course, well educated is never going to happen with the 'great' ideas that have been implemented to fix our education system
 
TheLastIndependent said:
Because educated, skilled labor trumps uneducated, unkilled labor any day of the week. It is more efficient. Well educated workers could outproduce the Chinese. Of course, well educated is never going to happen with the 'great' ideas that have been implemented to fix our education system
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No, the Hukui, iron rice bowl, slaves in Ant tribes with manipulated currency beats out even the best educated US worker using a machine to do all the work. And machines are not nearly
as flexable a people. That is why even with automation and loss of some jobs, ALL THE JOBS leave anyway. because there is no "competing" with the Chinaman. read the book in my sig.
 
Cephus said:
It depends on what you mean by "force". I think we ought to provide negative consequences for not graduating from high school, they ought to suffer if they decide not to get an education because an education is the best way to make them financially self-sufficient that we have. If you want to drop out, fine, but I don't think you should be able to get any social services if you do and parents of children that drop out should not get any welfare money for them. As far as I'm concerned, school is their job. Quitting their job ought to mean they stop getting a "paycheck". Don't like that? Don't drop out.
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I don't believe in punishing someone their whole lives for a mistake. :shrug: Sometimes it takes years for the impact of not having a high school diploma for someone to realize "Hey, I made a mistake". I also don't believe in letting kids just drop out. Whether its a vocational job training, tier system like some European countries have, we need to do something to get those kids educated enough to where they are not a burden on society like most drop outs are. We can't just keep acting like there isn't a problem or just saying "meh, they drop out, they deserve whatever they get". We also need to start realizing the people are fallible and make mistakes instead of trying to treat everyone like they're suppoesed to be perfect from the get go, and if they're not then they are nothing but scum.
 
Superfly said:
I mentioned this in another thread, but when I went to high school, we had two paths we were required to follow. We were either on the academic path, and had plans to go on to college, or we were on the technical path, and had plans to learn a skill for a job after high school. Our schedules had to reflect either one, or the other. There was no way around it.

I don't know if they still do it that way, but if not, it should be. Don't just throw kids to the wolves without them having some general idea of how to support themselves, or at least where they are going with their lives.
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I've never heard of this, but what a good idea! But whatever track they're on, students must demonstrate that they know their "three R's."

In my community we do have choices. It's not just at-risk students; it's also the "accelerated" students whose academic maturity needs support too. And so we have a high school whose focus is health professions and another for future criminal justice system employees and another dedicated to computer technology. Students spend half a day at the central high school and the other half at their specialized schools studying and serving internships. And etc.

At the other end, there is an ACE program that helps at-risk students to complete minimal requirements quickly. Usually, these students are at risk of dropping out because they hate school, but there are also students who need to finish as quickly as possible because of a family emergency or, rarely, an opportunity that can't be missed.

Our newest high school, and its students attend it only, is very interesting. Students must apply and be accepted after demonstrating their sincere commitment to academic performance, and they must also generally be financially disadvantaged. One young lady I know who's bound for med school completed high school, including several college courses, at 16, is now attending a major university on an entirely free ride.

There is no "One size fits all," so the more diverse and creative solutions, the better!

(So long as students can read, write, and do basic business math.)
 
Force them why? To learn what?

I have run my own business since '95 and I learned almost NOTHING scholastically during my entire time in public school that has helped me as an entrepreneur.

Almost a complete waste of time.

In fact, by grade 7 (I skipped Grade 6), I had learned almost all I was to learn (scholastically) of practical value in public school.

Public high school is, imo, a STAGGERINGLY overrated institution.
 
If a minor child wants to leave school, he should be able to show the court he is able to support himself and be emancipated. His parents should no longer be required by law to be "responsile" for his actions.
 
There's no point in re-inventing the wheel.

The key is in recognizing that the solutions that might solve this problem were simply the accepted norm in the single culture America of thirty years ago. That country is gone now and trying to return to that education system is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The present model of America and its educational system is more akin to any other failing country throughout history that sunk into a socialist, self serving, corrupt government that dominates competing tribal cultures, without a common language, that can barely contain their disdain for each other. The schools simply fail along with families, jobs, the economy, industries and the quality of life. Crime prevails.

America could also be compared to a former colony in which the more advanced dominant colonial power was driven out and 3rd world status returned to the people and eventually some form of corrupt socialism/communism emerged.

That is the model to follow when addressing the failed schools in America. For 75% of our new citizenry, any education beyond the sixth grade is unnecessary. A huge acknowledgement of this overall societal failure was when American schools, quietly and without fanfare, stopped teaching students how to write. Who needs to write in the 3rd world?
 
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Ray410 said:
There's no point in re-inventing the wheel.

The key is in recognizing that the solutions that might solve this problem were simply the accepted norm in the single culture America of thirty years ago. That country is gone and trying to return to that education system is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The present model of America and its educational system is more akin to any other failing country throughout history that sunk into a socialist, self serving, corrupt government that dominates competing tribal cultures that can barely contain their disdain for each other. The schools simply fail along with families, jobs, the economy, industries and the quality of life. Crime prevails.

America could also be compared to a former colony in which the more advanced dominant colonial power was driven out and 3rd world status returned to the people and eventually some form of corrupt socialism/communism emerged.
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Public education is a relatively new concept in our nations history...

You still have the right to remove your child from the system and provide them with an alternative education.
 
1750Texan said:
Public education is a relatively new concept in our nations history...

You still have the right to remove your child from the system and provide them with an alternative education.
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One wonders what your nation is.

Americans have always valued public education as the key to the future for its children. Not in the terrible decline of today's multicultural pop culture of course.

Many Americans are desperately seeking alternative education to get their children out of the circus of the failed public schools. Naturally, the emerging socialist government is attempting to stop this outflow.
 
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I would rather see a system where kids all attended school until 8th grade, and then assigned to further schooling that was based upon either academics or trade.
 
chromium said:
What do you call public K-12? The govt supporting them...Why waste public funds of 2 extra years of education for someone with no desire to learn, who will just be a distraction at best?
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Kids have been a distraction in school since the beginning of school.

The scenario you describe can easily come about even with a diploma. How that piece of paper magically prevents having multiple wives and kids and needing public assistance is beyond me.
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It's a lot easier to get a job with a diploma, than without. That's how that "magical piece of paper" works, you know.
 
nota bene said:
I've never heard of this, but what a good idea! But whatever track they're on, students must demonstrate that they know their "three R's."

In my community we do have choices. It's not just at-risk students; it's also the "accelerated" students whose academic maturity needs support too. And so we have a high school whose focus is health professions and another for future criminal justice system employees and another dedicated to computer technology. Students spend half a day at the central high school and the other half at their specialized schools studying and serving internships. And etc.

At the other end, there is an ACE program that helps at-risk students to complete minimal requirements quickly. Usually, these students are at risk of dropping out because they hate school, but there are also students who need to finish as quickly as possible because of a family emergency or, rarely, an opportunity that can't be missed.

Our newest high school, and its students attend it only, is very interesting. Students must apply and be accepted after demonstrating their sincere commitment to academic performance, and they must also generally be financially disadvantaged. One young lady I know who's bound for med school completed high school, including several college courses, at 16, is now attending a major university on an entirely free ride.

There is no "One size fits all," so the more diverse and creative solutions, the better!

(So long as students can read, write, and do basic business math.)
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Exactly - students can't be placed inside this little box anymore. Teachers and administrators are realizing this, and it's much more beneficial for the students.
 
Gardener said:
I would rather see a system where kids all attended school until 8th grade, and then assigned to further schooling that was based upon either academics or trade.
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Agreed. But they must demonstrate that they can read, write, and perform basic math tasks.
 
Lursa said:
With all due respect, IMO it is not the school's place to teach that. It's a 'nice to have' but today kids dont even seem to be able to properly learn the basics of science, math, English, history, etc. Critical thinking would be nice. If there is room for electives, sure but otherwise, kids can be taught those things at home, in church youth groups, YMCA, Boys & Girls Clubs, etc.

Hi Polgara!
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Good morning to you Lursa! :2wave:

The problem we're seeing is that the mom's that should be teaching these skills at home never learned them either! Those fortunate enough to have grandmothers are probably being taught - at least I hope so! There is nothing demeaning about knowing how to cook and sew - even college graduates have to eat. How many kids today even know how to fry chicken or make a roast beef? They're totally clueless, and I find that scary.

With so many experts warning us about grid failure that has the potential to last for months or years, what are they going to do when the fast food places, or any other food providers, are unable to function to provide food for them? There is a reason why Homeland Security is stockpiling millions of MRE's to be distributed to people to prevent starvation. That is not how I want to live - those things just don't taste good, although they will keep you alive.

Ironically, today is my day to volunteer-teach moms how to preserve food for future eating, by pressure canning and/or dehydrating what is available today. They are so eager to learn that some cry, and the classes are getting so large that I am astonished that there are so many new ones week after week. What is happening? Have people forgotten how to take care of themselves, or were they never taught in the first place? *end of rant* :mrgreen:
 
TheLastIndependent said:
It's true. I know my college degrees are mostly worthless minus two career paths which are professor and law. This country desperately needs an education revolution.
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Why did you choose to earn two "worthless" degrees?
 
polgara said:
The problem we're seeing is that the mom's that should be teaching these skills at home never learned them either! Those fortunate enough to have grandmothers are probably being taught - at least I hope so! There is nothing demeaning about knowing how to cook and sew - even college graduates have to eat. How many kids today even know how to fry chicken or make a roast beef? They're totally clueless, and I find that scary.
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My son's girlfriend (it's a serious relationship), sews. It blew me away to learn that when I first met her. Young women who know how to sew these days are few and far between.
 
I support the right for them to choose whether to continue or not. I also suppor the right for them to fend for their own and allowing businesses to have nothing to do with hiring them because of inferior education. I also support the right for them to forfeit all public assistance and become a financial cripple for the family, or to die and be a cheap funeral.
 
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