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Dropping out of school

Should we force kids to finish 12th grade?

  • Yes, we should force kids to finish 12th Grade

    Votes: 12 28.6%

  • No, we should NOT force kids to finish 12th Grade

    Votes: 20 47.6%

  • Other, please explain.

    Votes: 10 23.8%
  • Total voters
    42
Helix said:
everyone should have to at least finish high school with some rare exceptions.
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I can see it now, half of detroit public schools will be age 30+ as they struggle with mandatory graduation
 
I think they should be allowed to drop out at 16, even tho I believe a HS education should be completed even before entering a trade or trade school.

However no 16 yr old should be individually eligible for any public assistance of any kind until they reach 18.That way the parents remain responsible for them and have more incentive to get them to finish. And if the kid go out on their own or get kicked out of the house, they have to find jobs that pay enough to survive on, or....oh well.
 
the minor does not understand how dropping out impacts his/her future
ending their education is not a decision best left to a minor
so, until attaining the age of emancipation, the minor should be required to attend school
and that could be home school, voc school, public school, college

Dropouts are more likely to be unemployed, have poor health, live in poverty, be on public assistance, and be single parents.
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it is good public policy to avoid our children becoming dropouts
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Kal'Stang! :2wave: Long time no talk to you..

The thing that disturbs me is that Home Ec is no longer offered in many schools. We still need to eat - which sometimes requires cooking - and we should all know the basics of sewing in order to repair clothing...or make new. There is a great community need for these skills, and I see it as a problem coming up in the future. We're raising a generation of people who have never been taught how to do these things, and that's not good, IMO.
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With all due respect, IMO it is not the school's place to teach that. It's a 'nice to have' but today kids dont even seem to be able to properly learn the basics of science, math, English, history, etc. Critical thinking would be nice. If there is room for electives, sure but otherwise, kids can be taught those things at home, in church youth groups, YMCA, Boys & Girls Clubs, etc.

Hi Polgara!
 
justabubba said:
the minor does not understand how dropping out impacts his/her future
ending their education is not a decision best left to a minor
so, until attaining the age of emancipation, the minor should be required to attend school
and that could be home school, voc school, public school, college


it is good public policy to avoid our children becoming dropouts
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Exactly. My daughter is 16, and would love nothing more than to drop out, sleep 'til noon and work at the movie theater the rest of her life. :lol: That's why there are parents - to keep kids from making stupid choices, like dropping out of school. My mom didn't try to stop me. She just let me do whatever I wanted to, and I wish she hadn't. I wish she had pushed me harder, but that's another thread. :lol: Once I realized what I'd done, I worked my ass off to get my GED, and I was told by the testers that I scored much higher than average. Just think of what I could have done, had I had the support of my parents. Anyway, I learned how not to raise my children from my parents, so while my daughter thinks I'm a real hard ass, she'll appreciate it when she gets older.
 
I have a question for those that say either we don't let them drop out till 18 or until they are signed up for a trade school or something.
If the kid has decided he doesn't want to be there and is done learning what possible good is it doing just makinging him sit in class. You can't make him pay attention you can't make him do homework and you can't even really stop him from acting out.
Now you have a kid that is wasting the teacher and everybody else's time while not learning anything. If someone really wants to screw up there life you can't stop them. Chances are later in life while they are working a dead end job making minimum wage they will regret that decision but that is life.
It is not the governments job to protect people from themselves.
 
braindrain said:
I have a question for those that say either we don't let them drop out till 18 or until they are signed up for a trade school or something.
If the kid has decided he doesn't want to be there and is done learning what possible good is it doing just makinging him sit in class. You can't make him pay attention you can't make him do homework and you can't even really stop him from acting out.
Now you have a kid that is wasting the teacher and everybody else's time while not learning anything. If someone really wants to screw up there life you can't stop them. Chances are later in life while they are working a dead end job making minimum wage they will regret that decision but that is life.
It is not the governments job to protect people from themselves.
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No, but if the government doesn't stop them, then the government (and you and me) will be supporting them, because that dead end job won't support them, or their 5 kids and 2 ex wives.
 
braindrain said:
I have a question for those that say either we don't let them drop out till 18 or until they are signed up for a trade school or something.
If the kid has decided he doesn't want to be there and is done learning what possible good is it doing just makinging him sit in class. You can't make him pay attention you can't make him do homework and you can't even really stop him from acting out.
Now you have a kid that is wasting the teacher and everybody else's time while not learning anything. If someone really wants to screw up there life you can't stop them. Chances are later in life while they are working a dead end job making minimum wage they will regret that decision but that is life.
It is not the governments job to protect people from themselves.
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for many - too many - students, this attitude arrives with them in kindergarten
but we still try to teach and reach them
let's not give up on them even if they give up on themselves

one wrinkle i would add is to adjust benefits available to homes where government assistance is provided
if the children perform well in school, the home receives some bonus ... internet access, for instance
but if the student has behavioral and/or performance issues, then withhold said perk. provide incentives and disincentives to the parent(s) depending upon their childrens' behavior and school achievements
 
justabubba said:
for many - too many - students, this attitude arrives with them in kindergarten
but we still try to teach and reach them
let's not give up on them even if they give up on themselves

one wrinkle i would add is to adjust benefits available to homes where government assistance is provided
if the children perform well in school, the home receives some bonus ... internet access, for instance
but if the student has behavioral and/or performance issues, then withhold said perk. provide incentives and disincentives to the parent(s) depending upon their childrens' behavior and school achievements
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Good idea, Bubba. Also, here, if the student doesn't have a good attendance record, he or she cannot get a driver's license, and they can lose the license if their attendance drops after they get the license.
 
braindrain said:
I have a question for those that say either we don't let them drop out till 18 or until they are signed up for a trade school or something.
If the kid has decided he doesn't want to be there and is done learning what possible good is it doing just makinging him sit in class. You can't make him pay attention you can't make him do homework and you can't even really stop him from acting out.
Now you have a kid that is wasting the teacher and everybody else's time while not learning anything. If someone really wants to screw up there life you can't stop them. Chances are later in life while they are working a dead end job making minimum wage they will regret that decision but that is life.
It is not the governments job to protect people from themselves.
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While I somewhat agree....and it's not the govt's job to protect people from themselves, I do wish they better protect the taxpayers who end up paying out in public assistance for these kids later.

So I prefer to look for the best investments of my tax $$.
 
justabubba said:
for many - too many - students, this attitude arrives with them in kindergarten
but we still try to teach and reach them
let's not give up on them even if they give up on themselves

one wrinkle i would add is to adjust benefits available to homes where government assistance is provided
if the children perform well in school, the home receives some bonus ... internet access, for instance
but if the student has behavioral and/or performance issues, then withhold said perk. provide incentives and disincentives to the parent(s) depending upon their childrens' behavior and school achievements
Click to expand...

But how far do you take it. If the kid really doesn't wasn't too be there he is not going to learn anything so there is no benefit to him and odds are good that he will be a disruption to the class which will only hurt the kids who are trying to learn and put them behind. Even if he is not acting out the teacher is going to have to spend time working with him which is time she could be spending with kids who want a better future.
 
When I was in high school in SoCal, you could drop out of high school when you turned 16, I knew a lot of people that did.
 
Lursa said:
While I somewhat agree....and it's not the govt's job to protect people from themselves, I do wish they better protect the taxpayers who end up paying out in public assistance for these kids later.

So I prefer to look for the best investments of my tax $$.
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But making someone sit in class against there will is not going to provide that person with an education. You have to want to learn or its not going to happen. Plus how is that fair to the kids who are trying but now have an added distraction in their class.
 
Well, until our education system is made to have some actual worth beyond a piece of paper, then I wouldn't make any school attendance compulsory. High school is absolutely worthless for doing anything. You shouldn't HAVE to go to college to get a decent paying job. Some well paying jobs, such as HVAC among others, could very easily be trained for in highschool so that at 18 our kids have a marketable skill. Instead we walk out of highschool and oh goody, we can take a test. But, thats it.
 
Superfly said:
Could you keep your license?
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I believe so, having a high school degree wasnt a requirement to get a driver's license, you just needed to be 16.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Should the ability to drop out of high school be allowed? Or should we start forcing students to attend school until they pass 12th grade? (note: this only applies to 17 and younger as adults should be making their own choices)

Personally I think that we should force them to continue through 12th grade. It is pretty much a requirement in this day and age that people have at least a 12th grade education just to get a job slightly above minimum wage.
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Yes, we should force them to finish. Unless they're 18 they're not adults and don't have the legal or mental capacity to make such life altering decisions. What I'd prefer to see instead is 2 or 3 different levels of high school like lots of Europe has, each level is for sorting the kids into 3 main categories. 1) Kids who will go onto college 2) Kids who will go on to other higher level training, and 3) kids who will go on only to vocational training.

There's no reason those kids we all know aren't going to college shouldn't be graduating 12th grade with a certified job qualification for their new chosen profession.
 
going through the motions of going to school everyday and barely passing grade because of the mercy of the teacher is not "education". It's a waste of time.

That being said, I do think that the school system should account for low initiative students and offer them alternative schooling classes. In fact, this should be the norm... people learn differently. This is a major problem today and we need to create a new educational paradigm that allows children to explore what they're good at and what their desires as.
You can tell, I'm an adept of Sir Ken Robinson. I think he's on to something.

So that's why I voted "other". I don't think forcing kids to finish 12 grades or not is any useful if they don't participate in class and actually educate themselves. It's a failure of both the parents and the outdated system.
 
It depends on what you mean by "force". I think we ought to provide negative consequences for not graduating from high school, they ought to suffer if they decide not to get an education because an education is the best way to make them financially self-sufficient that we have. If you want to drop out, fine, but I don't think you should be able to get any social services if you do and parents of children that drop out should not get any welfare money for them. As far as I'm concerned, school is their job. Quitting their job ought to mean they stop getting a "paycheck". Don't like that? Don't drop out.
 
TheLastIndependent said:
Well, until our education system is made to have some actual worth beyond a piece of paper, then I wouldn't make any school attendance compulsory. High school is absolutely worthless for doing anything. You shouldn't HAVE to go to college to get a decent paying job. Some well paying jobs, such as HVAC among others, could very easily be trained for in highschool so that at 18 our kids have a marketable skill. Instead we walk out of highschool and oh goody, we can take a test. But, thats it.
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Yeah really, considering how worthless many college degrees are, yet some in this thread want to make *high school* mandatory? Truly makes no sense to me. Better odds of emerging from those extra 2 years of HS traumatized than to use a diploma for a job that will pay rent, other than trailer parks.
 
Superfly said:
No, but if the government doesn't stop them, then the government (and you and me) will be supporting them, because that dead end job won't support them, or their 5 kids and 2 ex wives.
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What do you call public K-12? The govt supporting them...Why waste public funds of 2 extra years of education for someone with no desire to learn, who will just be a distraction at best?

The scenario you describe can easily come about even with a diploma. How that piece of paper magically prevents having multiple wives and kids and needing public assistance is beyond me.
 
justabubba said:
for many - too many - students, this attitude arrives with them in kindergarten
but we still try to teach and reach them
let's not give up on them even if they give up on themselves
Click to expand...

Kindergarten taught me the ABCs. That is at least something useful, which unfortunately i can't say for 11-12th grade.
 
Currently in New South Wales, a student must stay at school until they are 17 or prove they have a job. It is a pointless exercise to make students stay at school if they don't want to be there. I have classes with students who just disrupt the learning of their peers because they are too lazy to do any work, have no interest in doing in work, haven't done any work for years and have been shoved through the system.

I also am in favour of a three level high school as they do in Europe; one for those students who will go to uni, one for those students who will go into a trade or who are not bright enough for uni (not that intelligence is a pre requisite these days) and one for those who have no interest in learning and should be trained in such life style skills such as filling out forms, managing on a low income etc.

When we get back to teaching instead of baby sitting as we are most of the time now, things will change for the better.
 
chromium said:
Yeah really, considering how worthless many college degrees are, yet some in this thread want to make *high school* mandatory? Truly makes no sense to me. Better odds of emerging from those extra 2 years of HS traumatized than to use a diploma for a job that will pay rent, other than trailer parks.
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It's true. I know my college degrees are mostly worthless minus two career paths which are professor and law. This country desperately needs an education revolution.
 
chromium said:
I can see it now, half of detroit public schools will be age 30+ as they struggle with mandatory graduation
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while i disagree with your hyperbolic example, it beats being subjected to indentured servitude at some unskilled job and not taking one's education as far as one can. i just see very little benefit in allowing anyone to drop out of high school. sure, offer a vocational tract instead, but at least require graduation.
 
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