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Are Cops Too Militarized?

Are police units going too far by being overly militarized?

  • Total voters
    55
Peter King said:
No, you are wrong, I viewed the statistics before I first answered your question. But in the past I have also, in earlier discussions, compared crime statistics in the US to those in other industrialized countries and the number of murders as well as the insane number of people jailed in the US show that there is a problem with violence in the US. Without these militarized police units the violence might be much worse.

So please don't thank yourself for things that live only in your mind and not in reality.
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Our biggest problems with violence come from the inner city poor neighborhoods where gangs reign supreme. Most of this is related to drugs and the fallout of our "war against drugs."
 
Peter King said:
I mean a person with several handguns can be just as dangerous to a police officer as a criminal with a heavier weapon.
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Oh, I can't disagree with that. In fact, and yes I know it may be bull**** (the 21 foot rule), but police are trained to treat a person with a knife within a certain range as one of the greatest threats.

A knife, a damned edged weapon.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I'm not sure what you want. Feel free to look it up.
Prince George's County, MD Crime Map - Showing Crimes in Prince George's County
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I meant nationwide stats on homicides; so that we're not playing whack-a-mole.

Hatuey said:
...Did you read the link? He's actually showing you that the simple act of striking down anti-gun measures didn't lower homicides. Actually, homicides weren't lowered at all. They were moved to a different jurisdiction. If that's how we're going to "lower" crime, we may as well move every trailer park and public housing area in the country to Easter Island and presto, no more crime.
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Yes I did and I accept all that, which is why I asked for overall homicides, as in nationwide.
 
Arbo said:
Is baltimore 'better'? I lived there early 90's, doing database work as well as working/drinking at hammerjacks. Was a fun city, and generally pretty safe if you avoided the wrong places. Sowebo was pretty bad back then. I was on light street.
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To be honest, when I go to Baltimore I go to Canton or Fed Hill. My favorite Hooka bar is on Light Street. The only time I go to the worst neighborhoods are when I visit my artsy friends, but the corner boys don't say anything to me beyond asking if I wanted to buy something. Most of the violence occurs among them. IMO, civilians are pretty safe from gang violence.

Crime rate in Baltimore, Maryland (MD): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers statistics

We went from 282 in 2007 to 218 in 2012. Heck in 2011 they got homicides under 200; Juking the stats notwithstanding.
 
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ChrisL said:
Our biggest problems with violence come from the inner city poor neighborhoods where gangs reign supreme. Most of this is related to drugs and the fallout of our "war against drugs."
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Just about every vice can be found in there: smuggling (human, guns, etc), forced prostitution, illegal gambling, child soldiers…

Some areas are so bad that police refuse to enter.
 
Lachean said:
To be honest, when I go to Baltimore I go to Canton or Fed Hill. My favorite Hooka bar is on Light Street. The only time I go to the worst neighborhoods are when I visit my artsy friends, but the corner boys don't day anything to me beyond asking if I wanted to buy something. Most of the violence occurs among them. IMO, civilians are pretty safe from gang violence.

Crime rate in Baltimore, Maryland (MD): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers statistics

We went from 282 in 2007 to 218 in 2012. Heck in 2011 they got homicides under 200; Juking the stats notwithstanding.
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Jango said:
Just about every vice can be found in there: smuggling (human, guns, etc), forced prostitution, illegal gambling, child soldiers…

Some areas are so bad that police refuse to enter.
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Exactly. A lot of our most violent crime statistics come from criminal-on-criminal crimes.
 
Peter King said:
So please don't thank yourself for things that live only in your mind and not in reality.
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Your dodging and diversion do live in reality. You ranted on about uzi's and ak47's, and the crime stat's do not match your statements. Now you claim you looked at the stats and keep trudging the path of ignorance, when clearly you did not. You still have yet to deal with the reality that your original statement is total nonsense and not based in reality. Good attempt to keep shifting the focus in an attempt to move away from your ignorance on the subject, but you have failed.
 
Lachean said:
I meant nationwide stats on homicides; so that we're not playing whack-a-mole.



Yes I did and I accept all that, which is why I asked for overall homicides, as in nationwide.
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There is no nationwide police force and people tend to live, work and shop locally. The important crime rate is that which most likely affects you personally, not some nationwide statistics. There is absolutely nothing that the Hay's county, TX sheriff can do about crime in DC or MD. This is much the same as the attitude concerning public education; folks care about their own kid's school far more than some lofty national statistical averages.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
There is no nationwide police force and people tend to live, work and shop locally. The important crime rate is that which most likely affects you personally, not some nationwide statistics. There is absolutely nothing that the Hay's county, TX sheriff can do about crime in DC or MD. This is much the same as the attitude concerning public education; folks care about their own kid's school far more than some lofty national statistical averages.
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If you're only concerned with local crime thats fine, what I am asking is if you doubt that the TOTAL SUM OF ALL HOMICIDES NATIONWIDE are going down?

If that question is irrelevant to you, don't bother answering.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yes, the US homicide rate is currently falling, but no single cause has been determined to be driving it. What is your point?

U.S. death rate from homicide drops to a near 50-year low - The Washington Post
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I didn't have a point, I was asking a question; and it wasn't originally pointed at you. I was asking Caine, though I welcomed your response...

Whats the point of asking Caine? Well he's in Law Enforcement and I respect his opinion. I like to hear the opinions of people I respect, is that alright with you?
 
Lachean said:
If you're only concerned with local crime thats fine,
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I am. I could care less if gang bangers in big cities are offing each other every second of the day. I intentionally chose a small town to live in…..

year, murders, rapes, robberies, Assaults,Burglaries,Thefts,Vehicle Thefts, Arson
2012 1 0 3 38 112 555 26 3

2011 0 2 7 21 90 561 21 4

2010 2 5 5 30 94 586 17 15

2009 1 4 8 52 119 756 18 4

2008 0 6 8 34 114 661 30 4

2007 0 4 5 47 124 579 21 11

2006 1 6 3 23 89 510 32 2

2005 1 7 7 17 77 562 17 5

But most everyone in town has guns…. ;)
 
Lachean said:
I didn't have a point, I was asking a question; and it wasn't originally pointed at you. I was asking Caine, though I welcomed your response...

Whats the point of asking Caine? Well he's in Law Enforcement and I respect his opinion. I like to hear the opinions of people I respect, is that alright with you?
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Certainly, but you are quite capable of discovering these national statistics for yourself since you too have internet connectivity. I just happened upon a post of yours that stated DC crime was dropping and pointed out that right across the Anacostia river it was rising. While the nation, as a whole, is experiencing an overall reduction in crime (or at least homicides) that does not mean that all protions of it are experincing that trend. One must also take into account that these statistics are based only on reported crimes, which are a subset of the actual crimes, especially in those areas where gangs are involved and prefer to leave the police out of the loop. ;)
 
Arbo said:
I am. I could care less if gang bangers in big cities are offing each other every second of the day. I intentionally chose a small town to live in…..

year, murders, rapes, robberies, Assaults,Burglaries,Thefts,Vehicle Thefts, Arson
2012 1 0 3 38 112 555 26 3

2011 0 2 7 21 90 561 21 4

2010 2 5 5 30 94 586 17 15

2009 1 4 8 52 119 756 18 4

2008 0 6 8 34 114 661 30 4

2007 0 4 5 47 124 579 21 11

2006 1 6 3 23 89 510 32 2

2005 1 7 7 17 77 562 17 5

But most everyone in town has guns…. ;)
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I find that rather hard to read... but I get your point. I no longer live in Baltimore or DC; but their suburbs in Montgomery County. My goal is a remote farm. What I never understand is why people chose to remain in ****holes?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Certainly, but you are quite capable of discovering these national statistics for yourself since you too have internet connectivity. I just happened upon a post of yours that stated DC crime was dropping and pointed out that right across the Anacostia river it was rising. While the nation, as a whole, is experiencing an overall reduction in crime (or at least homicides) that does not mean that all protions of it are experincing that trend. One must also take into account that these statistics are based only on reported crimes, which are a subset of the actual crimes, especially in those areas where gangs are involved and prefer to leave the police out of the loop. ;)
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Yes I can, I'm aware of these stats and cite them regularly. The issue was, Caine brought into question said #'s given his experience with "juking the stats" so I wanted to know if he thought said juking amounted to so much that in fact violent crime hadn't gone down.
 
Lachean said:
Yes I can, I'm aware of these stats and cite them regularly. The issue was, Caine brought into question said #'s given his experience with "juking the stats" so I wanted to know if he thought said juking amounted to so much that in fact violent crime hadn't gone down.
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As I have pointed out; there is a difference in reported crime and actual crime. Whether that is driven by the reporting agencies not accurately reporting crime or the victims electing not to get the police involved is another matter all together. If a person "disappears" that may, or may not, count as a reported crime; no body = no homicide. ;)
 
Lachean said:
I find that rather hard to read... but I get your point. I no longer live in Baltimore or DC; but their suburbs in Montgomery County. My goal is a remote farm. What I never understand is why people chose to remain in ****holes?
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I guess it comes down to there being a whole 7 murders around here since 2004 (when I moved here)… the year with 2 were actually two police officers killed by a nutcase in a shootout. Of course the nutcase was killed but he doesn't count as a murder… suicide by cop.

I don't know why people like big over congested places either… "There is stuff to do" is often what I hear…. I have loads to do no matter where I am, I don't need to traffic and annoying masses of humanity.
 
Lachean said:
But do you doubt that violent crime is and has been on the decline?

Because I grew up in DC during the 80's "crack epidemic" then spent the past 10 years in Baltimore and despite how bad it was, I truly see it getting better.
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I dont necessarily doubt it.

There could be another anecdotal reason why violent crime is down overall.

You know that stat people love throwing up when trying to shame our own country about prison populations then they roll on to whining about drug laws?

Could it be violent crime is on the decline because we are actually locking up people, including for drug offenses (most violent crime stems from the drug trade in the first place) ?
 
haymarket said:
So the right wing wants citizens to be able to update based on latest technology in the field of weaponry but the police are somehow exempt to that same dynamic? That is the example of anti-law enforcement attitudes that permeate the far right especially right libertarians.
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We are not talking about individual ownership of weapons.We are talking about the militarization of law enforcement.
 
ChrisL said:
Our biggest problems with violence come from the inner city poor neighborhoods where gangs reign supreme. Most of this is related to drugs and the fallout of our "war against drugs."
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What is this "fallout" you speak of.

You had to find some way to pin the term "war on drugs" into your response.... now explain what this fallout of our war on drugs is..
 
Caine said:
I dont necessarily doubt it.

There could be another anecdotal reason why violent crime is down overall.
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I believe there are many reasons, including things like the use of unleaded gasoline.

Caine said:
You know that stat people love throwing up when trying to shame our own country about prison populations then they roll on to whining about drug laws?

Could it be violent crime is on the decline because we are actually locking up people, including for drug offenses (most violent crime stems from the drug trade in the first place) ?
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Not in my opinion, when they're releasing hardened violent criminals to make room for otherwise law abiding stoners. That violent crime you speak stems from the War on Drugs, since they're dealing with a black market commodity. That is the effect of prohibition, always has been; all the way back to the Volstead Act (alcohol prohibition.)

Have you read the stories about the effect of decriminalization is having on crime in Denver?
 
Ad_Captandum said:
Absolutely. And I totally think there are some decent situations in which the police can and should be deployed less like police and more like civil military control. Heads of State visits, big speeches, international ceremonies, sure.
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Why do they need commandos,machine guns, missiles and jets?

London - UK Military Shows Off Missiles To Protect Olympics
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Britain-Olympics-Defe_sham-725x392.jpg

Olympics news: Marines and elite cops in terror drill on Thames | The Sun |News
security7_682_1440308a.jpg
 
Arbo said:
Your dodging and diversion do live in reality. You ranted on about uzi's and ak47's, and the crime stat's do not match your statements. Now you claim you looked at the stats and keep trudging the path of ignorance, when clearly you did not. You still have yet to deal with the reality that your original statement is total nonsense and not based in reality. Good attempt to keep shifting the focus in an attempt to move away from your ignorance on the subject, but you have failed.
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That comment had to do with your incorrect accusation and arrogant wise nosery comment about me not looking at the crime figures.

I also did not mean the use of heavy weapons but the risk and threat of heavy weapons. If the police raids a house they almost never know what kind of weapons the suspect has in his/her house and the liberal weapons laws and the availability of heavy weapons means that the police will have to act or assume that the suspect may have such weapons.

That is the risk the cops have to deal with and it is not an assumed risk.

Your wise nosery claim that I did not look at the crime stats was untrue. I did not dodge anything IMHO and that is all that matters. And I did not claim I looked at those figures, I looked at those figures and while the numbers are a good deal lower than sometime ago, the crime numbers and the threat level is still way too high for a civilized western country. That is the reality.

And I am not shifting focus, I am still of the opinion that in a country with such an easy access to heavy guns and the risk of large numbers of handguns, it is not that strange that the police has become that militarized. Do I like it? No, I wish it were not necessary. Do I worry about it? Yes, there will be risks of excesses but for that there should be oversight and the moral standards of the police and it's officers. Because not all officers and/or police agencies always hold themselves to those standards does not mean that there is no need for militarized police units, maybe the biggest thing that is needed is better oversight and using these extreme police practices as seldom as possible.
 
Peter King said:
And I am not shifting focus,
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Yes, you are continuing to shift the focus off your stupid claims, and continuing on with your line of thinking. You know, ignoring the reality to continue the fantasy….
 
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