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Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 30 41.1%
  • No

    Votes: 43 58.9%

  • Total voters
    73
Wrong. It shows no such thing as stated.
It does not show any out of control military spending.
That is nothing more than your false claim.
All it showed was our spending as compared to others.

I was using facts to support my opinion. Whether you think spending more than the next ten top military nations is not a sign that it is out of control, that is your prerogative. Stop acting like your opinions are facts.


Wrong. I did indeed answer you question. You even quoted it.
As much as we need to project our power and support our interests and continue research and development so we can keep it that way for a good long time.

Lol, that is not an answer. I'm looking for a $ amount. Even if one believed we need to "project our power" over others, opinions on how much spending that requires would vary widely.

All you do is rant about your ideology as if it is correct compared to our current form of capitalism.
And frankly, you and it, are just wrong. Period.

Wow, crow calling the raven black. :lamo

Whatever you say buddy. ;)
 
the Constitution creates the federal government delegates them few powers, and creates federalism a separation of powers between the federal government and state governments, the federal government cannot create federal laws, which do not pertain to its constitutional powers granted to it by the constitution, it creates no relationship between the federal government and the people.

the 13th amendment to the constitution ,constitutional law, only applies to governments , BUT congress by appropriate legislation., CAN MAKE FEDERAL LAWS , making slavery a crime for citizens using federal statutes, even setting guidelines for the punishment for the crime.

There is no federal statue that states specifically that slavery is a crime. This is because of the 13th amendment.

federal statutes

18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

§ 1581. Peonage; obstructing enforcement
§ 1582. Vessels for slave trade
§ 1583. Enticement into slavery
§ 1584. Sale into involuntary servitude
§ 1585. Seizure, detention, transportation or sale of slaves
§ 1586. Service on vessels in slave trade
§ 1587. Possession of slaves aboard vessel
§ 1588. Transportation of slaves from United States
§ 1589. Forced labor
§ 1590. Trafficking with respect to peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
§ 1591. Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion
§ 1592. Unlawful conduct with respect to documents in furtherance of trafficking, peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
§ 1593. Mandatory restitution
§ 1593A. Benefitting financially from peonage, slavery, and trafficking in persons
§ 1594. General provisions
§ 1595. Civil remedy
§ 1596. Additional jurisdiction in certain trafficking offenses
§ 1597. Unlawful conduct with respect to immigration documents
§ 1588. Transportation of slaves from United States


§ 1590.Trafficking with Respect to Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor
§ 1591.Sex Trafficking of Children or by Force, Fraud, or Coercion
§ 1592.Unlawful Conduct with Respect to Documents in Furtherance of Trafficking, Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor

All you have done here is list a group of federal statutes, SOME of which have slavery in the title. ALTHOUGH SLAVERY IS IN THE TITLE BECAUSE THEY TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF SLAVERY, IN NONE OF THE STATUES IS SLAVERY SPECIFICALLY STATED TO BE A CRIME. This is because of the 13th amendment.

§ 1589. Forced labor-- Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--

(1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

(2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.

Forced labor is not the same as slavery. You don't have to be someone's property to be engaged in forced labor.
 
18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

That is the title because it talks about slavery. However no statute in that chapter specifically makes slavery a crime.

AMENDMENT XIII

Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.
Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.
Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

if a government were to sanction slavery it would be a constitutional violation, because governments cannot be sent to jail using federal code, but congress by appropriate legislation created federal code, for crimes of slavery to apply to citizens.

constitutional law applies to government, not the people, federal laws apply to people.

The 13th amendment is an absolute declaration that applies to people. There are no laws that specifically ban slavery or prescribe a punishment for it. Again, the decision of the Supreme Court

the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.

18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

January 2009 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2007-2008, showing that authorities investigated over 1200 incidents of human trafficking, and confirmed the incident in over 100 cases in the United States

Again, that is in the title because that chapter talks about, among other things, the subject of slavery. However, again, there is no statute that specifically states that slavery is a crime.

18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 § 1589--(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.

That is not for the crime of slavery.

18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

That is the title of the chapter. There is no statute that states specifically that slavery is a crime.


the 13th amendment is constitutional law...constitutional law does not apply to citizens, congress makes federal laws which deal with citizens.

Constitutional law

article 1 section 8

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

article 3 section 3

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

when a citizen has been found to have : counterfeited- committed piracy- committed treason, he will be tried under federal law, not constitutional law.

constitutional powers like these are general powers, meaning they are not detailed powers, ...so congress makes federal laws to set the specifications to the crimes of counterfeiting, piracy, and treason.

And again, there is no federal statute that specifically states that slavery is a crime. This is because the 13th amendment states that slavery does not exist in the US. Therefore no one can make another human property. And that is applicable not only to governments but to individuals as well. Again, the Supreme Court

the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.

Governments cannot make laws that make slavery legal, and neither can governments or individuals engage in the practice of slavery. It is an absolute declaration. As a result of this, no one can claim that another human being is his property. Therefore, there are no statutes that make slavery a crime, because no one can claim another human being is their property.
 
you stated constitutional law applied to citizens.. false......... only federal laws by the federal government applies to citizens...

citizens cannot be brought into federal courts of charges of constitutional violations.......if that were so then the appeals process would give the USSC power to sentence a citizen.

both amendments 13th and 16th authorize Congress the power to write federal legislation, on slavery and income taxes.

federal code, defines the description of what constitutes slavery

There is no federal statue that states specifically that slavery is a crime. This is because of the 13th amendment.

legislation from congress, as the 13th states.......[appropriate legislation]........ federal law makes it a crime by ..........defined by the code.

All you have done here is list a group of federal statutes, SOME of which have slavery in the title. ALTHOUGH SLAVERY IS IN THE TITLE BECAUSE THEY TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF SLAVERY, IN NONE OF THE STATUES IS SLAVERY SPECIFICALLY STATED TO BE A CRIME. This is because of the 13th amendment.

18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

U.S. Code defines what slavery is...the specifics listed in the code are considered either peonage /slavery/ and trafficking, it also states a guideline of what the punishment is for the crime of slavery as depicted by the code.

things specified in the code fall under ---PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

§ 1589. Forced labor-- Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--

(1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

(2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.


Forced labor is not the same as slavery. You don't have to be someone's property to be engaged in forced labor.

if you force someone to labor by you, then as defined by u.s. code it is slavery and a crime........

U.S.CODE ....DEFINES WHAT SLAVERY IS.........you do not.........Forced labor is defined as slavery under the title of the code.
 
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you stated constitutional law applied to citizens.. false......... only federal laws by the federal government applies to citizens...

citizens cannot be brought into federal courts of charges of constitutional violations.......if that were so then the appeals process would give the USSC power to sentence a citizen.

I said that the 13th amendment applies to citizens as well as governments. That's what I said. Not only that, but the 13th amendments applies to ANYONE in the United States.

You want to insist that the 13th amendment does not apply to individuals. But there is a problem with your position. If the 13th amendment did not apply to individuals, someone could purchase a slave in a country where slavery was permitted, bring the slave to the United States, and claim that the slave was their property. The state of ownership is imperative to the condition of slavery. There is nothing in any federal statute that states that you cannot own another human being as property. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This is because the 13th amendment has said that slavery, the practice of owning another human being as property, simply does not exist. So the very minute that someone, anyone, a citizen or foreign national, brings a slave into the United States, that person is simply not a slave anymore. This is because the 13th amendment not only applies to governments, but to individuals as well. Therefore the Supreme Court has said:

the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.

Again for emphasis, the 13th amendment is not a mere restriction on State laws, but is an absolute declaration that slavery simply does not exist in the United States. Therefore NO ONE, governments, citizens, or foreign nationals cannot claim human beings as property. Property ownership involves having proof of ownership that is acceptable to the local sovereign. In the United States, no one can provide such proof of ownership. Therefore no one can be brought to trial on the accusation that they own slaves.

both amendments 13th and 16th authorize Congress the power to write federal legislation, on slavery and income taxes.

The 13th amendment applies to individuals and government. And the 16th amendment gives Congress power over a type of property, namely income.

federal code, defines the description of what constitutes slavery

It does not. And you have provided no examples that demonstrate this. What you have done is taken the use of the word slavery in chapter and subsection titles and conflated that with a definition of slavery. It's absurd.

legislation from congress, as the 13th states.......[appropriate legislation]........ federal law makes it a crime by ..........defined by the code.

There is no crime of slavery in United States code. This is because no one can claim a slave to be property in the United States because of the 13th amendment.

18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

U.S. Code defines what slavery is...the specifics listed in the code are considered either peonage /slavery/ and trafficking, it also states a guideline of what the punishment is for the crime of slavery as depicted by the code.

things specified in the code fall under ---PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

No, that is the title of a chapter. There is no attempt to define slavery or prescribe punishment for it in any of the sections of that chapter.

§ 1589. Forced labor-- Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--

(1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

(2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.

if you force someone to labor by you, then as defined by u.s. code it is slavery and a crime........

U.S.CODE ....DEFINES WHAT SLAVERY IS.........you do not.........Forced labor is defined as slavery under the title of the code.

Forced labor is not the same as slavery. Slavery denotes an owner and property, the slave. Forced labor does not necessarily denote ownership. Your position that forced labor is defined as slavery is absurd.
 
I said that the 13th amendment applies to citizens as well as governments. That's what I said. Not only that, but the 13th amendments applies to ANYONE in the United States.

You want to insist that the 13th amendment does not apply to individuals. But there is a problem with your position. If the 13th amendment did not apply to individuals, someone could purchase a slave in a country where slavery was permitted, bring the slave to the United States, and claim that the slave was their property. The state of ownership is imperative to the condition of slavery. There is nothing in any federal statute that states that you cannot own another human being as property. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This is because the 13th amendment has said that slavery, the practice of owning another human being as property, simply does not exist. So the very minute that someone, anyone, a citizen or foreign national, brings a slave into the United States, that person is simply not a slave anymore. This is because the 13th amendment not only applies to governments, but to individuals as well. Therefore the Supreme Court has said:


incorrect there is nothing in 13th amendment which can be applied to citizens.......only the creation of federal law can apply to citizens.

citizens cannot be taken to court for a constitutional violation,...only a crime in the case of slavery



Again for emphasis, the 13th amendment is not a mere restriction on State laws, but is an absolute declaration that slavery simply does not exist in the United States. Therefore NO ONE, governments, citizens, or foreign nationals cannot claim human beings as properties. Property ownership involves having proof of ownership that is acceptable to the local sovereign. In the United States, no one can provide such proof of ownership. Therefore no one can be brought to trial on the accusation that they own slaves.

people can be bought to trial, under the definition of the code...if they commit such an infraction of the law, which is criminal law.....



The 13th amendment applies to individuals and government. And the 16th amendment gives Congress power over a type of property, namely income.


wrong the 13 and the 16th do not mention people

Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


the Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

It does not. And you have provided no examples that demonstrate this. What you have done is taken the use of the word slavery in chapter and subsection titles and conflated that with a definition of slavery. It's absurd.

the code defines what slavery is.


There is no crime of slavery in United States code. This is because no one can claim a slave to be property in the United States because of the 13th amendment.

the code defines what slavery is.


No, that is the title of a chapter. There is no attempt to define slavery or prescribe punishment for it in any of the sections of that chapter.

the code defines what slavery is.


Forced labor is not the same as slavery. Slavery denotes an owner and property, the slave. Forced labor does not necessarily denote ownership. Your position that forced labor is defined as slavery is absurd.

federal statutes

18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

§ 1581. Peonage; obstructing enforcement
§ 1582. Vessels for slave trade
§ 1583. Enticement into slavery
§ 1584. Sale into involuntary servitude
§ 1585. Seizure, detention, transportation or sale of slaves
§ 1586. Service on vessels in slave trade
§ 1587. Possession of slaves aboard vessel
§ 1588. Transportation of slaves from United States
§ 1589. Forced labor
§ 1590. Trafficking with respect to peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
§ 1591. Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion
§ 1592. Unlawful conduct with respect to documents in furtherance of trafficking, peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
§ 1593. Mandatory restitution
§ 1593A. Benefitting financially from peonage, slavery, and trafficking in persons
§ 1594. General provisions
§ 1595. Civil remedy
§ 1596. Additional jurisdiction in certain trafficking offenses
§ 1597. Unlawful conduct with respect to immigration documents
§ 1588. Transportation of slaves from United States
§ 1589.Forced labor
§ 1590.Trafficking with Respect to Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor
§ 1591.Sex Trafficking of Children or by Force, Fraud, or Coercion
§ 1592.Unlawful Conduct with Respect to Documents in Furtherance of Trafficking, Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor

the code defines what would be ...peonage-- slavery-- human trafficking.
 
incorrect there is nothing in 13th amendment which can be applied to citizens.......only the creation of federal law can apply to citizens.

Wrong! The 13th amendment does apply to citizens and any other person that is in the United States. As a result of the 13th amendment, no one can claim another person to be their property. NO ONE.
 
Wrong! The 13th amendment does apply to citizens and any other person that is in the United States. As a result of the 13th amendment, no one can claim another person to be their property. NO ONE.

sorry no , federal law .u.s.code. makes it possible for government take action against those who would violate the code concerning slavery, constitutional law cannot be used on the citizen, because it is just a general statement there is no power behind it when it comes to citizens, to jail them and build a case on.
 
It depends on what you define as "capitalism." Modern definitions of capitalism greatly differ from the marxist definition of capitalism. It has gotten to the point in which if you were to walk up to the average political activist and call yourself a "free market anti-capitalist" they'd look at you like you're smoking something. I think people have forgotten that capitalism is a specific structure of an inevitable market, rather than just a market itself. You can have markets without capitalism.

Fair enough. For the sake of this discussion, would you please elaborate on exactly what these "modern" definitions are, and who exactly has put forward those definitions, and how they differ, in your view from Marx's definition.

As far as the specific OP question, if you preface the question with "Was Karl Marx Right About..." 9 times out of 10 you are going to get the answer no from me.

Nine times out of ten? Please fill us in on the details.

He's not the evil big government stalinist that the right makes him out to be, but he's frankly an economic illiterate with no grip on reality.

Marx was anything but an economic illiterate. But if you really feel that's the case, please demonstrate how this is so.

We can live in the sunshine and rainbows dream universe where everybody is equal to everybody and nobody ever suffers, but that will never happen. This is where marxists, communists, socialists, left-libertarians, etc. fall off their rocker. On the social issues, they're spot on. Economically? They have quite a bit of reading to do. Utopia is great to lay back in your bed and think about, but we have to be pragmatic in our approach and frankly the closest we will ever get to that utopia ultimately has to be achieved through individualism and freedom of the individual.

There is no individual freedom under capitalism. There is only the illusion of such. Because what inevitably happens is that people become enslaved to the consumption of corporate commodities, which, combined with the practice of fractional reserve banking makes them debt slaves as well. The small bit of freedom under such a system is held in the hands of the wealthy only, because it can only result in the flow of income upwards to the wealthy. Regardless of whether it is corporate capitalism or free market capitalism this is always the case because capitalists are always motivated to maximize profits which results in their efforts to minimize wages. Thus there is always downward pressure on wages under capitalism which results in the upwards flow of wealth to the capitalist, which in turn leads to abnormal wealth distributions and huge income inequality. And their is nothing to prevent this under such a system.

Collectivism, regardless if it is centralized or decentralized, never works. Never has, never will. It inevitably leads to suffering and loss of freedom.

Capitalism has never worked, never will, and always results in the increase of human suffering.
 
sorry no , federal law .u.s.code. makes it possible for government take action against those who would violate the code concerning slavery, constitutional law cannot be used on the citizen, because it is just a general statement there is no power behind it when it comes to citizens, to jail them and build a case on.

No it is so. No one in the United States can claim that a human being is their property as a result of the 13th amendment. NO ONE. It's absurd to state otherwise.
 
No it is so. No one in the United States can claim that a human being is their property as a result of the 13th amendment. NO ONE. It's absurd to state otherwise.

did not say that....i said that you cannot arrest and charge anyone using the 13th amendment meaning you cannot apply it to citizens

you can only use criminal law for that, ...because the 13th is a general statement.

it takes federal law to define slavery...which congress is authorized to create from the 13th....its 2nd clause.
 
did not say that....i said that you cannot arrest and charge anyone using the 13th amendment meaning you cannot apply it to citizens

you can only use criminal law for that, ...because the 13th is a general statement.

it takes federal law to define slavery...which congress is authorized to create from the 13th....its 2nd clause.

The point is that the 13th amendment applies to not only citizens, but EVERYONE in the US. Because of the 13th amendment, NO ONE CAN CLAIM ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TO BE HIS PROPERTY. Therefore the 13th amendment applies to all.
 
The point is that the 13th amendment applies to not only citizens, but EVERYONE in the US. Because of the 13th amendment, NO ONE CAN CLAIM ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TO BE HIS PROPERTY. Therefore the 13th amendment applies to all.

sorry no.... the constitution does not apply to people.......no where does it grant of give the people anything....no where does it state government now has authority over the people or states.

the 13th amendment, states there shall be no slavery in the u.s. and congress by legislative authority has the power, to enforce that.
 
sorry no.... the constitution does not apply to people.......no where does it grant of give the people anything....no where does it state government now has authority over the people or states.

the 13th amendment, states there shall be no slavery in the u.s. and congress by legislative authority has the power, to enforce that.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

NO ONE CAN CLAIM ANOTHER PERSON TO BE HIS PROPERTY IN THE UNITED STATES. NO ONE!!!! This is directly because of the 13th amendment.

You want to put forward the absurd notion that US code defines slavery as forced labor. But THE FACT IS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE SOMEONE'S PROPERTY TO BE FORCED TO DO LABOR FOR THEM. Not only that, but what if the slave was not being forced to do the labor? What if the slave wanted to be a slave and be someone's property? IN THAT CASE THE LABOR IS NOT FORCED AT ALL, BUT STILL BECAUSE THE 13TH AMENDMENT APPLIES TO EVERYONE, NO ONE CAN CLAIM SOMEONE ELSE TO BE HIS PROPERTY. So even if someone wanted to be the slave of another person, thus resulting in an absence of forced labor, it is not possible because the 13th amendment applies to all, individuals included. And if you say that's absurd because no one would want to be a slave, there were actually a few blacks who were interviewed after the Civil War who stated that they preferred slavery.
 
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wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

No one can claim another person to be his property in the united states. No one!!!! This is directly because of the 13th amendment.

You want to put forward the absurd notion that us code defines slavery as forced labor. But the fact is that you don't have to be someone's property to be forced to do labor for them. Not only that, but what if the slave was not being forced to do the labor? What if the slave wanted to be a slave and be someone's property? In that case the labor is not forced at all, but still because the 13th amendment applies to everyone, no one can claim someone else to be his property. So even if someone wanted to be the slave of another person, thus resulting in an absence of forced labor, it is not possible because the 13th amendment applies to all, individuals included. And if you say that's absurd because no one would want to be a slave, there were actually a few blacks who were interviewed after the civil war who stated that they preferred slavery.

did not say that.....i said 13th does not apply to people, because you cannot build a case against a person or arrest them using the 13th, you have to have federal law, or state law to do that.
 
did not say that.....i said 13th does not apply to people, because you cannot build a case against a person or arrest them using the 13th, you have to have federal law, or state law to do that.

That's ok. But what I'm saying is that the 13th amendment does apply to individuals because as a result of that amendment, no one can claim another person to be his property.
 
what do you mean "claim"

Let's suppose that slavery was legal in Saudi Arabia. And let's suppose King Abdullah purchased slaves in Saudi Arabia, came to live in the United States, and brought his slaves with him. In the United States, King Abdullah cannot claim those persons to be his property, because the 13th amendment says that slavery does not exist in the United States.
 
Let's say a man holds the title to a site.
Owns. End of story.
Not your business.


False. While some do pay the equivalent (or more) of the full value thanks to two-tiered property taxes, not everyone pays the full value. You really think the owner of the empty lot next to the skyscraper is paying its full value in tax?
Yes what you said is false.
The tax that is paid is determined by the taxing authority. The value is assessed by them, not you.


Sales tax is bad for the local economy.
More ideological bs!


It is true. The wealth generated through our infrastructure is crystallized and privatized to benefit a few individuals when it should be benefiting the community as a whole. This results in greater wealth disparity which forces politicians to expand on assistance programs and raise our taxes.
No it isn't true.
This in nothing more than more of your ideological bs.


Who made the Earth? Air? Space? Natural resources? Nobody. Legally it can be owned, sure, but not naturally the same way we own the house we built. I believe as Thomas Paine believed: it is nevertheless true that it is value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property.
I do not care whom you believe like. You are still wrong.
Paying taxes on something that is your property, you know, that "property" you already paid taxes on, is counter ownership.


A thief also profits when he steals from the house he burglarizes. Profit in itself is not always good.
Holy ****!
:doh
There has been no theft.
Your comparison is :doh

So again, as already stated.
They are profiting. That is a good thing. They also risk losing and do lose.
That should not be discouraged.



I was using facts to support my opinion. Whether you think spending more than the next ten top military nations is not a sign that it is out of control, that is your prerogative. Stop acting like your opinions are facts.
No you weren't.
You provided a fact and stated an opinion.
The fact doesn't support your opinion at all.
All it showed was our spending as compared to others.
It does not show any out of control military spending.
That is nothing more than your false claim.


Lol, that is not an answer. I'm looking for a $ amount. Even if one believed we need to "project our power" over others, opinions on how much spending that requires would vary widely.
Yes it is an answer.
All it is is that you do not like it.
Too bad.
That is the amount we need. As much as we need to project our power and support our interests and continue research and development so we can keep it that way for a good long time.


Wow, crow calling the raven black.
Not at all.
There is a difference between what is already in play and the way you want things to be.
 
Owns. End of story.
Not your business.

Just as it is none of my business when a master owns a slave?

As a geoist, I have a different belief on ownership: that which you make you keep. But economic value is something which society or natures creates. Therefore, I believe that wealth belongs to the whole community rather than a few speculators/landowners.

Yes what you said is false.
The tax that is paid is determined by the taxing authority. The value is assessed by them, not you.

Lol, assessing the value is not the same thing as taxing the full land value.

More ideological bs!

You think sales tax is good for the local economy? :lamo

No it isn't true.
This in nothing more than more of your ideological bs.

I have supported my claims with links and studies. You have provided nothing but your vitriol and closed-mindedness.

I do not care whom you believe like. You are still wrong.

And I believe you're wrong for thinking I'm wrong. :)

Paying taxes on something that is your property, you know, that "property" you already paid taxes on, is counter ownership.

It is not counter ownership. As I stated before, I believe the community owns the land value.

Holy ****!
:doh
There has been no theft.

When the common wealth goes to only a few hands and not everyone that is theft in my view.


So again, as already stated.
They are profiting. That is a good thing. They also risk losing and do lose.
That should not be discouraged.

Why are you repeating what I already responded to?
 
No you weren't.
You provided a fact and stated an opinion.
The fact doesn't support your opinion at all.

Depends on one's interpretation of the fact.

All it showed was our spending as compared to others.
It does not show any out of control military spending.

The very concept of something being "out of control" is inherently an opinion. So I have no idea what you are talking about.


Yes it is an answer.
All it is is that you do not like it.
Too bad.
That is the amount we need. As much as we need to project our power and support our interests and continue research and development so we can keep it that way for a good long time.

...And how much do you believe is enough to "project our power?" Is giving a number really that difficult for you to do?

Not at all.
There is a difference between what is already in play and the way you want things to be.

That has nothing to do with that part of the discussion.

Ranting about your ideology is exactly what you are doing. You have a lot of cajones to criticize someone else for promoting their own ideology (isn't that the point of Debate Politics, anyways?)
 
No vote, as usual, I detest the lack of the option "none of the above" .Very similar to the communist mistake of repression. I feel that Mr Marx was partially correct...but that the real problem is one of things being out of balance...
To prevent poverty, we need far better education , including population control....or, we can choose China's method of control...
I have yet to really read any of the previous posts, but, Geoist...my philosophy is that the government should own the land, but not the improvements on that land. What is necessary, of course, is a very close relationship between the people and the government...which, today, we have little of...
 
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Here's an interesting article by George Magnus, former Chief Economist at UBS, the biggest bank in Switzerland



SO

Was Karl Marx right about capitalism?

No, I believe not, though it is rather strenuous to discern, what capitalism is exactly in his statement. 'Das Kapital' was no easy read.

Possibly you could build an economic model that ceteris paribus ended as Marx predicts. But capitalism is a very imprecise thing. It can be very different from one set of rules to the next. Take capitalism with democracy, with a dictator or with monarchy. The results will be quite different (see among others Calculus of Descent, Tullock and Buchanan). Now you could argue that that is not "pure" capitalism. But if I remember Marx correctly, he predicts that socialism and then communism will follow in the real world.

Right now it is all the vogue to discuss uneven distribution of earnings (or wealth). That is because since the Cold War ended we have added over 1.5 billion workers to the workforce. As every worker needs a certain amount of capital to make his work at all productive, the owners of capital have seen their income go up, while labor income has stagnated. This type of traverse is always going to cause interest, worry and friction. That is what we are seeing happen and not the fulfillment of prophesy.
 
Just as it is none of my business when a master owns a slave?
Dishonest argument. Not even comparable.


But economic value is something which society or natures creates.
Which isn't true , and why your ideology is stupid.


assessing the value is not the same thing as taxing the full land value.
Yeah, it is.



You think sales tax is good for the local economy?
You haven't proven it isn't. :lamo



I have supported my claims with links and studies.
:doh :lamo You haven't proven your claims at all. All you have done is provide bs opinions.


And I believe you're wrong for thinking I'm wrong.
:baby2


It is not counter ownership. As I stated before, I believe the community owns the land value.
Yes it is counter to ownership. That stands regardless of your beliefs.




When the common wealth goes to only a few hands and not everyone that is theft in my view.
It isn't common wealth. That is your fault for identifying it as such.




Why are you repeating what I already responded to?
Really?
You sectioned it off to reply to it separately when you know damn well is was stated again in with what was said above.
It applies to that.
There is no theft.
Your comparison was :doh

So again, as already stated.
They are profiting. That is a good thing. They also risk losing and do lose.
That should not be discouraged.


Way not to recognize it in context of what was said.
 
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