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Is man just a really smart monkey

Is man just a really smart monkey


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The difference is just a difference in degree, and not in kind. There are examples of animals doing almost all of the same things that humans do.
The difference between partial differential equations and no partial differential equations is more than just one of infinite degree, it is also once of difference in kind, since no animal has any mathematical skill at all.

It is possible that the cetaceans may have an intellect as great as that of man, but, living in a different environment, they haven't developed the use of tools and fire as we have.
No it is not possible, as closely as we have studied them.
 
Easy, if you take a step back. Let me preface with this. Probably the biggest inventions of mankind were those that occurred early on. The discovery of how to utilize fire, the creation of simple machines (levers, pulleys, wheels, etc.) or the ability to grow our own food instead of hunting and gathering. These were momentousness advances for us not for the increased technological capabilities, but for ingenuity that it took for humans to create them. It requires an astounding grasp on the external world and an pretty deep understanding of cause and effect to make those happen. Our later inventions where a computer got smaller, a vaccination was discovered, or a space shuttle flew further weren't necessarily the most astounding inventions. We'd have gotten there with or without much innovation. The path had already been set.
None of this suggests a need for me to reconsider anything. In fact, it consists of nothing other than more examples of what I termed our "infinite" "intellectual superiority".



That said, what is remarkable about animals is that many of them demonstrate the same grasp that we have on the external world.
Specifics, please. And I am going to hold you to the word "same".



Whether they can peer through a microscope or not, it is pretty inconsequential. What they have is the potential or the capacity to do this, just like early Homo sapiens.
Don't be ridiculous. No other animal has the potential or capacity to look through a microscope with any appreciation of what they are seeing, even if they could figure out how to focus it. Then of course there is the problem of constructing the microscope, or construction any other scientific instrument.



Granted now that we're the prime species on Earth there probably won't be this stunning change of natural hierarchies. However it's no doubt that there are a few species that show complexities and intelligence that isn't that far behind us.
Specifics, please. And I am going to hold you to the phrase "not that far behind". Take your microscope example. Are there a few species which have built magnifying glasses that I haven't heard about, or something?
 
The difference between partial differential equations and no partial differential equations is more than just one of infinite degree, it is also once of difference in kind, since no animal has any mathematical skill at all.


No it is not possible, as closely as we have studied them.

Are you sure?
Even applying human definitions of intelligence, the dolphins come out second. If you understand that there are different types of intelligence, even among humans, then it is quite possible that their intelligence is actually equal to ours.

Even if they're in second place (according to us) the difference is not all that great.

If human standards for intelligence are applied to non-human animals, however, dolphins come very close to our own brain aptitude levels, suggests Emory University dolphin expert Lori Marino.

She's performed MRI scans of dolphin brains. The scans prove dolphin brains are:

big, relative to body size
intricate, with a neocortex "more highly convoluted than our own"
structured to allow for self-awareness and the processing of what Marino calls "complex emotions"
 
What about species like Homo neanderthalensis? Or Homo heidelbergensis?



When I meet one I'll give you my opinion on them. :mrgreen:
 
Are you sure?
Even applying human definitions of intelligence, the dolphins come out second. If you understand that there are different types of intelligence, even among humans, then it is quite possible that their intelligence is actually equal to ours.

Even if they're in second place (according to us) the difference is not all that great.
Would it really be unfair of me to ask that we stick to literacy and numeracy?

Have Ms Morino get back to us as soon as the first dolphin can spell "c-a-t" and can add 1+1. Coco the gorilla might be an example of rudimentary literacy among other species, except I do not think her abilities have been confirmed and replicated to the satisfaction of the scientific community. Also, whatever these species' literary and numeric accomplishments are (and there might be none), keep in mind that they were not developed autonomously, but were fully dependent on human initiative and instruction.
 
I have been seeing alot of stuff lately on elephants, dolphins etc that show compassion for other beings and seem to understand death at some level and mourn the passing of others. I always thought things like this is what separated man from animals but now I am beginning to wonder.

Although humans are apes, not monkeys, the reality is that there is nothing we possess that some other species don't also possess.

We just are uniquely geared towards specific intellectual traits beyond the level any other animal is. But there are animals that are exceptional in other ways. And we don't really know yet if that's truly an advantage in the long run. Yes, we control more of the world than any other animal, but we have also flirted with destroying ourselves many times, and if the human species does go extinct, it will likely be at our own hands. That's a level of destruction no other species is capable of.

We have uniquely strong intellectual traits both positively and negatively. We aren't "superior" -- just somewhat unique. And we share a lot more in common with some other intelligent species than our egos often permit us to admit. As you say, we are not the only species to experience compassion and grief, or even complex problem solving and theory of mind. We're just the best at it. But our ability to introspect is lagging behind some of our other intellectual gifts, so I don't really think we deserve to be as smug about it as we often are, and we certainly aren't "better" than other creatures. After all, when was the last time an elephant tried to genocide the neighboring pack? Some humility, and perhaps even some observance of what other species do well, would do us good.
 
Would it really be unfair of me to ask that we stick to literacy and numeracy?

Have Ms Morino get back to us as soon as the first dolphin can spell "c-a-t" and can add 1+1. Coco the gorilla might be an example of rudimentary literacy among other species, except I do not think her abilities have been confirmed and replicated to the satisfaction of the scientific community. Also, whatever these species' literary and numeric accomplishments are (and there might be none), keep in mind that they were not developed autonomously, but were fully dependent on human initiative and instruction.

Intelligence can be measured in many ways. You don't get to redefine those ways to make a false point.

A crow has the reasoning ability of a seven-year-old child. Watch the vid. It's an education.

Crows are as intelligent as CHILDREN: Study reveals birds have same intelligence as a seven-year-old | Mail Online
 
Intelligence can be measured in many ways. You don't get to redefine those ways to make a false point.

A crow has the reasoning ability of a seven-year-old child. Watch the vid. It's an education.

Crows are as intelligent as CHILDREN: Study reveals birds have same intelligence as a seven-year-old | Mail Online

Anthropogenic-Global warming, species extinction, World Wars, Water pollution, death by automation, air pollution, genocide, ABC weapons, Keyword-Anthropogenic. Caused by man. Intelligent Man?????? Organizational genius to destroy himself.
 
Would it really be unfair of me to ask that we stick to literacy and numeracy?

Have Ms Morino get back to us as soon as the first dolphin can spell "c-a-t" and can add 1+1. Coco the gorilla might be an example of rudimentary literacy among other species, except I do not think her abilities have been confirmed and replicated to the satisfaction of the scientific community. Also, whatever these species' literary and numeric accomplishments are (and there might be none), keep in mind that they were not developed autonomously, but were fully dependent on human initiative and instruction.

Not according to Manc Skipper's post 27.

No one has taught dolphins math. They've figured it out on their own.

And expecting a creature without binocular vision, hands, or arms to read and write numeric symbols is really asking a lot.
 
All the talk of intelligence is irrelevant. "Animal" is a biological category. Biologically, we are animals.
 
All the talk of intelligence is irrelevant. "Animal" is a biological category. Biologically, we are animals.

No one can deny that.

At least not successfully. I'm not sure whether someone might try. It's quite amazing the positions some DP members will take.
 
For the second time:

(reply #12, this thread):

Try reading my whole post next time. For your edification.

The primary difference between us and every other animal is our dependence on our intellect for survival and our obsession with tools. Those combined form a very potent survival combination of survival traits. If you examine almost everything we do or use it is essentially a tool of some sort. Laws are mental tools for maintaining order, language a tool for cooperation and transfer of information, nature itself is a tool. We as a species take tool use as compared to the rest of the animal kingdom to whole other levels, magnitudes above our closest competitors. A flexible agile mind combined with a tool obsession makes for a very potent combo.

We are animals, and we are distant relatives of apes, monkeys, what have you. We just lucked out to have a genetic defect, that we worked utilized extensively to our advantage. All the other animals in the kingdom have something besides brains to fall back on, tooth, claw, speed and brawn. We have none of those. We live and die by our intellect and our very real obsession with tools. Our intellect is not infinitely greater, it is greater by orders of magnitude for certain uses, amongst those the development and use of tools. Yes we are the apex of the food chain so to speak. We got that way because we are very very very good at improvising and adapting ourselves and the environment around us to stack the deck in our favor. We cheat and well.
 
I have been seeing alot of stuff lately on elephants, dolphins etc that show compassion for other beings and seem to understand death at some level and mourn the passing of others. I always thought things like this is what separated man from animals but now I am beginning to wonder.
Beyond a spiritual perspective, I'd see no reason to suppose that we're in any way 'special'. Merely different.
 
I have been seeing alot of stuff lately on elephants, dolphins etc that show compassion for other beings and seem to understand death at some level and mourn the passing of others. I always thought things like this is what separated man from animals but now I am beginning to wonder.

I mean, I know what you're getting at, but we're not monkeys. We're primates, like they are, but we're actually much more closely related to bonobos, chimpanzees and even gorillas.

Monkeys are relatively far away, all things considered.
 
I would go with something more than simply "smart"

For example, it appears humans are the only animals capable of thinking about purely conceptual ideas, which helps allow us to build tools on tops of tools and create new concepts for social cohesion. Those two things are, from what i can tell, our primary evolutionary advantage over other animals.
 
we are nothing more than selfish animals.
 
Intelligence can be measured in many ways. You don't get to redefine those ways to make a false point.

A crow has the reasoning ability of a seven-year-old child. Watch the vid. It's an education.

Crows are as intelligent as CHILDREN: Study reveals birds have same intelligence as a seven-year-old | Mail Online
"Redefining"? Focus on two of most vital categories of intelligence is "redefining"? I think not.

As for the seven-year old child, seven to eight is around the time humans to master writing and mathematics; it when they learn to spell "c-a-t" and learn that "1+1=2". I am not as easily impressed as you, and I am not going to sign on to this crow stuff until the birds start showing evidence of literary and mathematical accomplishment.
 
Not according to Manc Skipper's post 27.

No one has taught dolphins math. They've figured it out on their own.
No, sorry, but the article does not come close to confirming that dolphins have any mathematical ability at all. It is also incoherently written, what with the "dolphins blowing multiple tiny bubbles around prey as they hunted" clearly implying that the prey was located prior to bubble generation, and other confused prose. (I am noticing more and more awful syntax and obvious mistakes in the written media these days. I guess they have fired all the copy editors in order to save money).

And expecting a creature without binocular vision, hands, or arms to read and write numeric symbols is really asking a lot.
Google indicates that dolphins do have binocular vision, although that makes no difference to our argument: humans can learn how to spell and add even if they are blind.
 
Try reading my whole post next time. For your edification.
I did read (and reply to) your whole post #13, which IMO serioulsy understates the contrast between human and other animal intelligence. However, I missed your post #14, which is much more reasonable, and which I mostly agree with.


We are animals, and we are distant relatives of apes, monkeys, what have you.
OK.


We just lucked out to have a genetic defect, that we worked utilized extensively to our advantage.
Not OK. Our intelligence is in no sense a "defect"- not biologically speaking, and not colloquially speaking.


All the other animals in the kingdom have something besides brains to fall back on, tooth, claw, speed and brawn. We have none of those. We live and die by our intellect and our very real obsession with tools.
OK.


Our intellect is not infinitely greater, it is greater by orders of magnitude for certain uses, amongst those the development and use of tools.
There may to be no limit to our ability to design different tools. If so that ability has a non-trivial infinite attribute. I do not believe the same can be said for any other member of the tree of life- all others' tool-designing abilities are finite. Infinity divided by any finite number = infinity.


Yes we are the apex of the food chain so to speak. We got that way because we are very very very good at improvising and adapting ourselves and the environment around us to stack the deck in our favor. We cheat and well.
I think of us more along the lines of people in white coats in laboratories than along the lines of a card sharp.
 
No, sorry, but the article does not come close to confirming that dolphins have any mathematical ability at all. It is also incoherently written, what with the "dolphins blowing multiple tiny bubbles around prey as they hunted" clearly implying that the prey was located prior to bubble generation, and other confused prose. (I am noticing more and more awful syntax and obvious mistakes in the written media these days. I guess they have fired all the copy editors in order to save money).


Google indicates that dolphins do have binocular vision, although that makes no difference to our argument: humans can learn how to spell and add even if they are blind.

There are lots of other studies indicating that dolphins have mathematical ability, but I'm sure they must be similarly flawed as well. The ones showing that dolphins have developed languages and may have names for each other, are they also poorly written and ungrammatical?
 
Mark Twain said: "God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey".
 
There are lots of other studies indicating that dolphins have mathematical ability,
Got any links?


but I'm sure they must be similarly flawed as well.

I said the reporter's prose was flawed, not the study, which might or might not be. The sciences are rife with publication pressure, and confirmation bias is widespread, especially with trendy and politically correct topics, such as that there is nothing really so special about our status in the animal kingdom. Wouldn't it be adorable if Flipper was just as smart as us!


The ones showing that dolphins have developed languages and may have names for each other, are they also poorly written and ungrammatical?
I am aware of the fact that dolphins possess elaborate communication skills. Linguistic skills even remotely approaching those of human beings are another story. I might not hold out for a dolphin-novel the size of War and Peace, but I will hold out for for some form of fiction, among other things, before I consider dropping the word "infinite" from my argument.
 
Mark Twain said: "God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey".

If it was a serious endeavor, god is surely still disappointed, however if it was just for entertainment god is plenty entertained.
 
Got any links?




I said the reporter's prose was flawed, not the study, which might or might not be. The sciences are rife with publication pressure, and confirmation bias is widespread, especially with trendy and politically correct topics, such as that there is nothing really so special about our status in the animal kingdom. Wouldn't it be adorable if Flipper was just as smart as us!



I am aware of the fact that dolphins possess elaborate communication skills. Linguistic skills even remotely approaching those of human beings are another story. I might not hold out for a dolphin-novel the size of War and Peace, but I will hold out for for some form of fiction, among other things, before I consider dropping the word "infinite" from my argument.

I don't think they've developed a way of writing underwater just yet. How about gossip?
 
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