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Is the Pope a Socialist?

Is the Pope a Socialist?


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Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth

Pope Francis called Friday for governments to redistribute wealth to the poor in a new spirit of generosity to help curb the "economy of exclusion" that is taking hold today.

Francis made the appeal during a speech to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and the heads of major U.N. agencies who met in Rome this week.

Latin America's first pope has frequently lashed out at the injustices of capitalism and the global economic system that excludes so much of humanity, though his predecessors have voiced similar concerns.

On Friday, Francis called for the United Nations to promote a "worldwide ethical mobilization" of solidarity with the poor in a new spirit of generosity.

He said a more equal form of economic progress can be had through "the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society."

Francis voiced a similar message to the World Economic Forum in January and in his apostolic exhortation "The Joy of the Gospel." That document, which denounced trickle-down economic theories as unproven and naive, provoked accusations in the U.S. that he was a Marxist.


Wealth redistribution advocation seems a little Marxist in nature. I'm not sure if he meant this literally or as a change in attitude from the corporate power structure?
 
Do not listen to the pope he is no more then a figure head that the powers that be use to control a largely false "religion".
 
Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth




Wealth redistribution advocation seems a little Marxist in nature. I'm not sure if he meant this literally or as a change in attitude from the corporate power structure?
Yeah earlier I heard he said that.
I had the same thought you did.
It does require more of an explanation ... from him.
He can't be that naïve.
Imagine the rash of Papal woodies going around the Dem caucus today?
 
Let's hope he meant "A hand up and not a hand out"
 
I suppose it all depends upon how you define the word. I doubt very much if he believes industries should be run by the government, but I do believe he feels government should help the people especially the disadvantaged.
 
Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth


Wealth redistribution advocation seems a little Marxist in nature. I'm not sure if he meant this literally or as a change in attitude from the corporate power structure?

The Pope takes his cues from the Gospel and the teachings of Christ. He doesn't really care about the politics of the situation.

It's really only interesting from the perspective of the American right vs. left paradigm (which in most other places would be the moderate left vs. less moderate left). You see it here in this thread with comments about the "left" having "Papal woodies." Their feelings are hurt that he's not one of them.
 
He's certainly been influenced by liberation theology. Don't think he'll be giving sermons with an AK slung to his back anytime soon though.
 
Yeah earlier I heard he said that.
I had the same thought you did.
It does require more of an explanation ... from him.
He can't be that naïve.
Imagine the rash of Papal woodies going around the Dem caucus today?


The Pope takes his cues from the Gospel and the teachings of Christ. He doesn't really care about the politics of the situation.

It's really only interesting from the perspective of the American right vs. left paradigm (which in most other places would be the moderate left vs. less moderate left). You see it here in this thread with comments about the "left" having "Papal woodies." Their feelings are hurt that he's not one of them.


I'm sure he means it symbolically. He's not unrealistic enough to believe that the wealthy corporations will suddenly give away their money. But his intent is probably more in the line of admonishing, "how it's destructively greedy and unchristian to take so much, even legally".
 
He's certainly been influenced by liberation theology. Don't think he'll be giving sermons with an AK slung to his back anytime soon though.


It clashes with the skullcap.
 
Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth




Wealth redistribution advocation seems a little Marxist in nature. I'm not sure if he meant this literally or as a change in attitude from the corporate power structure?

Since he says he believes that. Is he going to start by redistributing all the wealth the Catholic Church has? Is he going to give up his luxuries? What is the total value of all the artwork, gold and other holdings of the Catholic Church?
 
Social democrat, maybe. But he's definitely no Marxist.
 
I am waiting on Paul Ryan's reaction.
 
I am waiting on Paul Ryan's reaction.

Heck, im waiting for phattonez's reaction. The pope just went directly against his economic beliefs.
 
Since he says he believes that. Is he going to start by redistributing all the wealth the Catholic Church has? Is he going to give up his luxuries? What is the total value of all the artwork, gold and other holdings of the Catholic Church?

That's a good point, lead by example. But I'm not sure if he has the power to give away church wealth?
 
Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth


And this is why the statements if the Pope have to be interpreted in the context of him being the leader of the Catholic Church. Many in the blogosphere have speculated that he favors Catholic Distributism (which is neither capitalist not socialist).

Wealth redistribution advocation seems a little Marxist in nature. I'm not sure if he meant this literally or as a change in attitude from the corporate power structure?

And this is why the statements if the Pope have to be interpreted in the context of him being the leader of the Catholic Church. Many in the blogosphere have speculated that he favors Catholic Distributism (which is neither capitalist not socialist).

When he advocates for legitimate redistribution, he means legitimate redistribution. As an example, government break up of monopolies, which should involve an equitable remuneration.

Also note that Distributism supports broad ownership of the means of production (whereas socialism supports government ownership). It also supports eliminating the inherent opposition between employers and employees, which is inherent in both capitalism and socialism.

Let's hope he meant "A hand up and not a hand out"

It would be reasonable to interpret him in that manner.

He's certainly been influenced by liberation theology. Don't think he'll be giving sermons with an AK slung to his back anytime soon though.

He opposed liberation theology as a Cardinal.

Since he says he believes that. Is he going to start by redistributing all the wealth the Catholic Church has? Is he going to give up his luxuries? What is the total value of all the artwork, gold and other holdings of the Catholic Church?

The Church is one of the most charitable organizations in the world. And for a global organization is not that rich.

He seems to be about as socialist as Jesus.

Which is to say, not at all.

I hope he's a socialist! Just one more sign of a more moral, more progressive, more modern Church. Who wouldn't get behind that?

Not happening. He's probably a Distributist, which is an anti-socialist ideology.

That's a good point, lead by example. But I'm not sure if he has the power to give away church wealth?

He's not calling for property to simply be arbitrarily taken. Rather he likely is speaking of the means of production.

Legitimate redistribution requires just compensation, so taking items such as artwork or gold that have their value in themselves would be pointless.
 
And this is why the statements if the Pope have to be interpreted in the context of him being the leader of the Catholic Church. Many in the blogosphere have speculated that he favors Catholic Distributism (which is neither capitalist not socialist).

Not happening. He's probably a Distributist, which is an anti-socialist ideology.

Ehh step in the right direction at least. He's not hoarding, and that's progress!



PS Jesus was totally a socialist:

"For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.” Corinthians 8:13

“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Matthew 6:2

"Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need." Ephesians 4:28

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." Acts 2:44

"Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." Acts 4:32

'Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”' Matthew 19:21

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter." James 5:1


There are waaaaaay more. I'm an atheist, I'm a democratic socialist, but I know my Bible. Jesus was about as commie as they come -- and that's just another thing I laud the guy for. He knew right from wrong, divine or not.
 
Just because you believe in more progressive redistribution of wealth it does not make you a socialist.
 
Just because you believe in more progressive redistribution of wealth it does not make you a socialist.

When your offices are gilded palaces full of expensive artwork it just might make you a hypocrite. ;)
 
Ehh step in the right direction at least. He's not hoarding, and that's progress!



PS Jesus was totally a socialist:

"For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.” Corinthians 8:13

“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Matthew 6:2

"Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need." Ephesians 4:28

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." Acts 2:44

"Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." Acts 4:32

'Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”' Matthew 19:21

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter." James 5:1


There are waaaaaay more. I'm an atheist, I'm a democratic socialist, but I know my Bible. Jesus was about as commie as they come -- and that's just another thing I laud the guy for. He knew right from wrong, divine or not.

If by progress you mean "the opposite of that which is traditional", then not so fast, Distributism would support inter-class cooperatives of people in a specific profession, which in addition to being directly opposed to socialist class warfare, is also an idea medieval in origin.

None of one support collective ownership, which is the defining characteristic of socialism.
 
When your offices are gilded palaces full of expensive artwork it just might make you a hypocrite. ;)

He's not calling for redistribution of things which are valuable in themselves.
 
If by progress you mean "the opposite of that which is traditional", then not so fast, Distributism would support inter-class cooperatives of people in a specific profession, which in addition to being directly opposed to socialist class warfare, is also an idea medieval in origin.

None of one support collective ownership, which is the defining characteristic of socialism.

I was really rather hoping you'd respond to the Bible quotes.
 
Just because you believe in more progressive redistribution of wealth it does not make you a socialist.

You gotta earn that!

When your offices are gilded palaces full of expensive artwork it just might make you a hypocrite. ;)

The pope should definitely lead by example. He should take that billion dollars that the church is sitting on... and go spend half of it. Spend half of it on AIDS research or 100% effective birth control, or just building roads, schools, and hospitals in Africa.

I like the talk he talks, but now it's time to walk the walk.

If by progress you mean "the opposite of that which is traditional"

Nope. Progress means doing it better. It's not an opposite of tradition. Tradition doesn't deserve that much credit. Good ideas stand of their own accord, not based on whether they're old or new.
 
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