Drug Legalization

[PoS]

So here's what the drug war has cost us so far:

- Largest prison population in the world.

- Estimates that the Drug War has cost taxpayers from $1 Trillion so far (or around $100 Billion a year) and this is a conservative estimate.

- Cops have been militarized: every city and government agency (including the Dept of Education) now has a SWAT team equipped with military weapons and vehicles.

- Lots of innocent people have been killed (form drug gang shootouts to cops mistaking raiding the wrong house)

- Arrests and incarceration of large number of minorities (the black population has been absolutely devastated by arrests and busts)

- Strengthened organized crime (drug cartels control huge swaths of territory in Latin America) and caused massacres/high murder rates in other countries.

It only took 13 years for the older generation of politicians to repeal Prohibition when they realized that it wasnt working. Why are a huge number of politicians now still for the war even though its not working?

 

[Crovax]

It only took 13 years for the older generation of politicians to repeal Prohibition when they realized that it wasnt working.

Still regurgitating the same old myths. Prohibition did work it was repealed because people wanted to drink. The only thing drug legalization is about is wanting to do drugs, nothing more.

Actually, Prohibition Was a Success - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/opinion/sunday/the-not-so-roaring-20s.html?_r=0

 

[tecoyah]

Some drugs should be regulated as dangerous substances....unfortunately most of these are quite legal and owned by big Pharma which makes control difficult.

 

[PoS]

Still regurgitating the same old myths. Prohibition did work it was repealed because people wanted to drink. The only thing drug legalization is about is wanting to do drugs, nothing more.

Actually, Prohibition Was a Success - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/opinion/sunday/the-not-so-roaring-20s.html?_r=0

The US is the #1 market for drugs in the world, so it means people want to do drugs just like they want to drink.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-the-world-in-illegal-drug-use/

 

[ChrisL]

So here's what the drug war has cost us so far:

- Largest prison population in the world.

- Estimates that the Drug War has cost taxpayers from $1 Trillion so far (or around $100 Billion a year) and this is a conservative estimate.

- Cops have been militarized: every city and government agency (including the Dept of Education) now has a SWAT team equipped with military weapons and vehicles.

- Lots of innocent people have been killed (form drug gang shootouts to cops mistaking raiding the wrong house)

- Arrests and incarceration of large number of minorities (the black population has been absolutely devastated by arrests and busts)

- Strengthened organized crime (drug cartels control huge swaths of territory in Latin America) and caused massacres/high murder rates in other countries.

It only took 13 years for the older generation of politicians to repeal Prohibition when they realized that it wasnt working. Why are a huge number of politicians now still for the war even though its not working?

While I think the war on drugs has been an abject failure (obviously), I still don't know how I feel about legalizing SOME harder drugs. Some people can be dangerous and unpredictable when under the influence of these drugs, and therefore it is not only endangering themselves but others around them.

But on the other hand, I could make the same claim about alcohol. Some people are going to do things they wouldn't normally do while under the influence of alcohol. It's a really tough one!!

 

[Muhammed]

The only thing drug legalization is about is wanting to do drugs, nothing more.

I don't think so. I am pro-legalization and I have no desire whatsoever to use drugs. And there is a lot of other people who feel the same way I do.

And another problem with drug laws that the OP didn't mention is that many people are in some serious pain from sickness and injury and do not have access to pain killers that would dramatically improve the quality of their lives. Because of draconian drug laws they must suffer excruciating pain. Prohibition is immoral IMO.

 

[Helix]

Should drugs be legalized?

here's what i support :

pot : legalized at the federal level, commercially produced, and completely legal for adults in every state. individual states would not be permitted to make it illegal. this has to be done, because some of the more backwards states will throw tantrums and try to ban it. we have to prevent them from doing that, because it will just lead to more blackmarket nonsense. pot prohibition has been a hopeless failure, and it's time to put it behind us. additionally, full legalization will allow a new industry to hire people, and we will probably see big savings in enforcement and incarceration.

hallucinogens : decriminalize and study. no one goes to jail for possession, and the fines should be trivial. possible full legalization after a brief period.

cocaine : once again, no jail for possession. we have to accept, though, that we're talking about a much more serious drug here. might be able to completely legalize it at some point, but it needs to be done in phases.

opiates : this one's a real can of worms. no jail for possession, but we should have a serious national discussion about how we want to handle this category of drugs. opiates are for real scary, not like the fake hysteria and lies that led to pot prohibition.

other : every non violent drug offender should be released from jail, and records for possession should be expunged. the last thing we need is for them to be unable to get work, and yeah, something like that can keep you out of a good job. if we want them to turn their lives around, it's treatment and work, not jail and a scarlet letter.

a question you might have is why not just do it all at once? legalize everything overnight if neoprohibition is such an obvious failure. the reason is that this is a massive societal change, and it needs to be done in steps, IMO. we need to ease it in and give it time. in the meantime, we build our treatment infrastructure and stop ruining peoples' lives with criminal records.

i think this would be the right way to address the issue.

 

[ChrisL]

here's what i support :

pot : legalized at the federal level, commercially produced, and completely legal for adults in every state. individual states would not be permitted to make it illegal. this has to be done, because some of the more backwards states will throw tantrums and try to ban it. we have to prevent them from doing that, because it will just lead to more blackmarket nonsense. pot prohibition has been a hopeless failure, and it's time to put it behind us. additionally, full legalization will allow a new industry to hire people, and we will probably see big savings in enforcement and incarceration.

hallucinogens : decriminalize and study. no one goes to jail for possession, and the fines should be trivial. possible full legalization after a brief period.

cocaine : once again, no jail for possession. we have to accept, though, that we're talking about a much more serious drug here. might be able to completely legalize it at some point, but it needs to be done in phases.

opiates : this one's a real can of worms. no jail for possession, but we should have a serious national discussion about how we want to handle this category of drugs. opiates are for real scary, not like the fake hysteria and lies that led to pot prohibition.

other : every non violent drug offender should be released from jail, and records for possession should be expunged. the last thing we need is for them to be unable to get work, and yeah, something like that can keep you out of a good job. if we want them to turn their lives around, it's treatment and work, not jail and a scarlet letter.

a question you might have is why not just do it all at once? legalize everything overnight if neoprohibition is such an obvious failure. the reason is that this is a massive societal change, and it needs to be done in steps, IMO. we need to ease it in and give it time. in the meantime, we build our treatment infrastructure and stop ruining peoples' lives with criminal records.

i think this would be the right way to address the issue.

That sounds like a really good plan to me.

 

[WillyPete]

Still regurgitating the same old myths. Prohibition did work it was repealed because people wanted to drink. The only thing drug legalization is about is wanting to do drugs, nothing more.

Actually, Prohibition Was a Success - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/opinion/sunday/the-not-so-roaring-20s.html?_r=0

Neither of your linked article reaches that conclusion. Both acknowledge that changing drug policy may be best for the country.

One indicates that alcohol consumption was reduced during prohibition and increased afterwards, but that seems difficult to demonstrate, since all they can measure with any accuracy is legal consumption, which would obviously drop during Prohibition, and increase after it's repeal.

You other article only claims that the murder rate didn't increase by quite the amount claimed during Prohibition, which is a side point at best.

Neither addresses how creating a massively profitable black market improved anything. Certainly organized crime existed prior to Prohibition, but Prohibition is what made them rich and powerful.

The main argument against the War on Drugs is that the negative effects of the policy far outweigh any benefits.

 

[Crovax]

I don't think so. I am pro-legalization and I have no desire whatsoever to use drugs. And there is a lot of other people who feel the same way I do.

You are in the minority, most all of the pro legalization people I have ever talked to have been either current or former users of drugs

 

[Crovax]

The US is the #1 market for drugs in the world, so it means people want to do drugs just like they want to drink.

U.S. Leads the World in Illegal Drug Use - CBS News

If that's what the US wants so be it but all this phony stuff about prohibition not working and the "negative" effects of the war on drugs will get the movement no where.

 

[PoS]

Well I am for full legalization of all drugs. Im not a user btw.

First off, you cant do a partial legalization simply because the black market will continue for the harder drugs. Secondly (and I forgot to mention this in the OP), the government can do brisk business in regulation rather than outright banning. And it will put the criminal cartels out of business when it comes to making money off drugs and this should also conversely lessen the prison population and stop militarizing cops.

Most importantly, the country will not go to hell in a hand basket should this happen. Why do I know this? Because one country, back in 2001, already decriminalized (but not legalized) all drugs: Portugal.

And the drug use of their population actually declined! So it is possible to move forward on this.

Decriminalizing Drugs in Portugal a Success, Says Report - TIME

"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."

Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.

The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

 

[Dragonfly]

Legalize - tax - watch the national debt tumble - win - win - win.....

 

[Crovax]

Neither of your linked article reaches that conclusion. Both acknowledge that changing drug policy may be best for the country.

One indicates that alcohol consumption was reduced during prohibition and increased afterwards, but that seems difficult to demonstrate, since all they can measure with any accuracy is legal consumption, which would obviously drop during Prohibition, and increase after it's repeal.

You other article only claims that the murder rate didn't increase by quite the amount claimed during Prohibition, which is a side point at best.

Neither addresses how creating a massively profitable black market improved anything. Certainly organized crime existed prior to Prohibition, but Prohibition is what made them rich and powerful.

The main argument against the War on Drugs is that the negative effects of the policy far outweigh any benefits.

prohibition had 1 real goal to decrease alcohol consumption and the negative effects associated with it. It accomplished that with very minor negative side effects that have been overblown in an attempt to justify getting rid of drug prohibition.

 

[Crovax]

Legalize - tax - watch the national debt tumble - win - win - win.....

And why will johnny pothead buy from your heavy taxed legal weed when the cartels will still be providing cheaper drugs?

 

[Soupnazi630]

Still regurgitating the same old myths. Prohibition did work it was repealed because people wanted to drink. The only thing drug legalization is about is wanting to do drugs, nothing more.

Actually, Prohibition Was a Success - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/opinion/sunday/the-not-so-roaring-20s.html?_r=0

It is not a myth it is fact prohibition did not work and was an absolute failure.

It was not repealed because people wanted to drink. In fact anyone who wished to drink did drink in spite of prohibition.

Prohibition accomoplished only the criminalization of those who simply wished to do with themselves as they saw fit while encouraging violence and gang activity. Prohibition also merely increased government power and tyranny. WHat is interesting is that even when it was repealed the government maintained it's increased power and authority which means the one part of prohibition remaining is the tyranny it caused.

The same logical truthds apply to the failed war on drugs which was utterly lost by the US government the moment it began.

 

[Soupnazi630]

prohibition had 1 real goal to decrease alcohol consumption and the negative effects associated with it. It accomplished that with very minor negative side effects that have been overblown in an attempt to justify getting rid of drug prohibition.

Actually consumption of alcohol increased during prohibition and decreased slightly when it was repealed.

Decrease in alcohol consumption and the negative effects was never a goal of prohibition.

 

[Muhammed]

While I think the war on drugs has been an abject failure (obviously), I still don't know how I feel about legalizing SOME harder drugs. Some people can be dangerous and unpredictable when under the influence of these drugs, and therefore it is not only endangering themselves but others around them.

I think most of the violence associated with some hard drugs stems directly from their prohibited status. That is why we have so many young people being shot down in the streets in the prime of their lives. Or having their lives ruined by a prison sentence. For example, if cocaine was legal the cost per dose would probably be comparable to a cup of coffee (another CNS stimulant). And you don't see drug cartel gangsters shooting up your local Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts shops. And you don't see anyone committing crimes to get coffee money.

But on the other hand, I could make the same claim about alcohol. Some people are going to do things they wouldn't normally do while under the influence of alcohol. It's a really tough one!!

And alcohol is even more addictive than many "hard" drugs. Yet the vast majority of people who drink, myself included, drink in moderation and it has no negative effects on their lives or the lives of those around them.

I drink practically every day. At dinnertime I almost always have either some wine or beer depending on what is on the menu that evening. For instance, beer goes excellent with a steak or burger. And red wine goes great with Italian cuisine. White wine compliments fish very nicely. There is no good reason to deny alcohol to the vast majority of alcoholic beverage consumers just because a small minority of people abuse alcohol.

 

[Gipper]

It's just an example of America trying to enforce its morality. They do it to other nations, just as they do it to their own.

If drugs could be regulated, subsidized, and taxed...oh wait. They can be. Guess that means oppressive American ethics are the only thing keeping them illegal.

And I've never done any drug harder than weed in my entire life...didn't smoke it that long either.

 

[Dragonfly]

And why will johnny pothead buy from your heavy taxed legal weed when the cartels will still be providing cheaper drugs?

Why do people buy beer when they can brew it themselves? Why isn't there a black market for alcohol?

Why do people pay higher prices in convenience stores when larger grocery chain have same items cheaper?


Keeping drugs, marijuana especially, illegal costs us tons of money and provides no real return on investment.

 

[ecofarm]

It's just an example of America trying to enforce its morality. They do it to other nations, just as they do it to their own.

If drugs could be regulated, subsidized, and taxed...oh wait. They can be. Guess that means oppressive American ethics are the only thing keeping them illegal.

Oppressive American ethics forces those terrible human rights on foreign populations? That's you idea of a bad guy?

 

[PoS]

Actually consumption of alcohol increased during prohibition and decreased slightly when it was repealed.

Decrease in alcohol consumption and the negative effects was never a goal of prohibition.

The one terrible legacy of Prohibition was the destruction of the American craft beer industry. We were stuck with crappy beers like Budweiser up until the 1990's, my entire childhood sucked, you cant take that baaack! :2mad:

 

[Gipper]

Oppressive American ethics forces those terrible human rights on foreign populations? That's you idea of a bad guy?

No, this is my idea of a bad guy.

 

[ecofarm]

No, this is my idea of a bad guy.

I don't know that is because I'm an adult.

 

[Gipper]

I don't know that is because I'm an adult.

All evidence to the contrary.