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Are Affirmative Action programs racist?[W:110]

Are Affirmative Action programs racist?

  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .
maquiscat said:
Ok then...viewed, assumed or implied superiority is a factor in racism. AA is not racist simply because it does not assume any given race is superior or inferior.
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Except it does-it assumes, merely on the basis of skin color-that the individual can not compete equally, and is therefore in need of some sort of special status and benefit. It does not account for ANY individual merit or achievement but rather skin color alone. Just as bad, people of other skin color can be looked over or denied because they did not receive the same status and benefits-again based merely on skin color.

AA is govt wielded racial discrimination under the guise that two wrongs make a right.
 
ecofarm said:
No, it's not. Read the whole definition of racism.
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So if Bob liked punching black people because they were black that wouldn't be racist unless he also believes one race to rule them all?

It's a little childish to try to dance around common definitions of words instead of actually defending your point.
 
DVSentinel said:
Actually, their plans were made up to comply with findings of Regents of the University of California v. Bakke which mandated "It upheld affirmative action, allowing race to be one of several factors in college admission policy."

From http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/hiring/affirmativeact.htm

"For federal contractors and subcontractors, affirmative action must be taken by covered employers to recruit and advance qualified minorities..." That means the government is telling them they must hire on race.

eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

If women and minorities are not being employed at a rate to be expected given their availability in the relevant labor pool, the contractor's affirmative action program includes specific practical steps designed to address this underutilization.

Which not only mandates hiring based upon race but established an "enforceable goal" also know as quota.
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translation, the broke the law. there are no qoutas or special treatment in real AA/EEO thats why they got in trouble.
posting lies wont change this fact

again quite while you are behind lol
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So if Bob liked punching black people because they were black that wouldn't be racist unless he also believes one race to rule them all?
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Well, first, Bob would have to be white.

It's a little childish to try to dance around common definitions of words instead of actually defending your point.
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Just use the whole definition. That's the least anyone should be able to comprehend.

Pretending that being denied a school, once if ever, is the same as every day oppression is stupid nonsense.
 
US Conservative said:
Except it does-it assumes, merely on the basis of skin color-that the individual can not compete equally, and is therefore in need of some sort of special status and benefit. It does not account for ANY individual merit or achievement but rather skin color alone. Just as bad, people of other skin color can be looked over or denied because they did not receive the same status and benefits-again based merely on skin color.

AA is govt wielded racial discrimination under the guise that two wrongs make a right.
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Sorry but you are mistaking the law compensating, not for an inherent inferiority in any given race, but for the way others treat said race. It is not the same thing. The law effectively is saying "you are not inferior, but there are those treating you as such and thus we will compensate". I am not saying that the law does this properly or effectively, but AA is not structured with the idea that any given race is inferior to others or that any given race is superior to others.

ecofarm said:
Well, first, Bob would have to be white.
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Couldn't he be Asian, or Hispanic or Native American?
 
maquiscat said:
Sorry but you are mistaking the law compensating, not for an inherent inferiority in any given race, but for the way others treat said race. It is not the same thing. The law effectively is saying "you are not inferior, but there are those treating you as such and thus we will compensate". I am not saying that the law does this properly or effectively, but AA is not structured with the idea that any given race is inferior to others or that any given race is superior to others.
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The law makes assumptions, based purely on race. That individuals experiences are immaterial. But even worse, is that it negatively impacts people of different skin color because of that.
 
US Conservative said:
The law makes assumptions, based purely on race. That individuals experiences are immaterial. But even worse, is that it negatively impacts people of different skin color because of that.
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Which shows bias, yes, something I have already said, my very first post on this thread in fact. The law does not use the assumption that any given race is either superior or inferior as per the definition of racist also posted in this thread.
 
maquiscat said:
Couldn't he be Asian, or Hispanic or Native American?
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That's significantly different, but I suppose. Minorities acting against each other is not the same as the majority and societal privilege.
 
ecofarm said:
Well, first, Bob would have to be white.



Just use the whole definition. That's the least anyone should be able to comprehend.

Pretending that being denied a school, once if ever, is the same as every day oppression is stupid nonsense.
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Then by your logic if all the major schools got together and decided to not ever accept black people that wouldn't be racist because being denied a school can't be racist.
 
How do you even prove someone is black/white/or asian? Is there an ancestry percentage... do we all have to take DNA tests? Compare our skin to a skin color chart?

What if from now on, I call myself black, yo! Who can tell me I'm not? Prove that I'm not black.
Is it because I don't look it? Who determines if I look black or not?
 
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ecofarm said:
That's significantly different, but I suppose. Minorities acting against each other is not the same as the majority and societal privilege.
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Racism is racism. It does not matter what the races of the two individuals involved are save that they are two different races. There is a difference between being racist and have signifficant access to a system to make the lives of those one is racist towards miserable.

celticwar17 said:
How do you even prove someone is black/white/or asian? Is there an ancestry percentage... do we all have to take DNA tests? Compare our skin to a skin color chart?

What if from now on, I call myself black, yo! Who can tell me I'm not? Prove that I'm not black.
Is it because I don't look it? Who determines if I look black or not?
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An excellent point. Certainlly there have been enough people of mixed heritage who's skin color leans more towards one parent than the other, even white. And in a thread about service animals someone once said that it was wrong that we should question whether or not the animal was actually a service animal since it was demeening to the supposed handicapped person. So why would asking one to prove one's race be any less demeaning.
 
AGENT J said:
translation, the broke the law. there are no qoutas or special treatment in real AA/EEO thats why they got in trouble.
posting lies wont change this fact

again quite while you are behind lol
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Those were quotes, in case you didn't notice, from the Department of Labor and from one the actual US Codes (Law) governing Affirmative Action.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Then by your logic if all the major schools got together and decided to not ever accept black people that wouldn't be racist because being denied a school can't be racist.
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Wrong. You've failed to grasp the sociological implications of racism - a social construct.
 
ecofarm said:
Wrong. You've failed to grasp the sociological implications of racism - a social construct.
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Well, considering you said earlier that people can only be racist if they're white I don't suppose we're going to be able to have an honest conversation about it.
 
maquiscat said:
Racism is racism.
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Racism is a social construct and must be examined at the societal level, not the individual level. Bigotry can be an individual thing, racism requires certain social factors.
 
celticwar17 said:
How do you even prove someone is black/white/or asian? Is there an ancestry percentage... do we all have to take DNA tests? Compare our skin to a skin color chart?

What if from now on, I call myself black, yo! Who can tell me I'm not? Prove that I'm not black.
Is it because I don't look it? Who determines if I look black or not?
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That is a very good question. I don't know what the answer is.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Well, considering you said earlier that people can only be racist if they're white I don't suppose we're going to be able to have an honest conversation about it.
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Not necessarily white, that's just US context. In order to perpetuate racism, as opposed to bigotry, one must be of the majority power (or a minority oppressing another minority). Racism against the majority is impossible due to the social factors of this social construct.
 
ecofarm said:
Not necessarily white, that's just US context. In order to perpetuate racism, as opposed to bigotry, one must be of the majority power (or a minority oppressing another minority). Racism against the majority is impossible due to the social factors of this social construct.
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yes that is one definition of racism

many people reject this silly restrictive definition.
 
TurtleDude said:
yes that is one definition of racism
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That's the whole definition of racism. Taking only individual factors to define a social construct is nonsense.
 
ecofarm said:
That's the whole definition of racism. Taking only individual factors to define a social construct is nonsense.
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Opinion noted, not shared
 
ecofarm said:
That's the whole definition of racism. Taking only individual factors to define a social construct is nonsense.
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So far as I was aware, racism is just race-specific bigotry.

It sounds like you're arguing that a majority "race" in any population will nigh-invariably created a social construct of racism simply due to their larger numbers...or something?

That doesn't really make sense to me.
 
The Mark said:
So far as I was aware, racism is just race-specific bigotry.
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That's just racial bigotry. Racism includes a system of unjust discrimination. Racism is a social construct and thereby cannot be defined merely by individual factors.

It sounds like you're arguing that a majority "race" in any population will nigh-invariably created a social construct of racism simply due to their larger numbers...or something?

That doesn't really make sense to me.
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I don't know if it's invariable, but it's the case in every western country I've visited and lived in.
 
ecofarm said:
That's just racial bigotry. Racism includes a system of unjust discrimination. Racism is a social construct and thereby cannot be defined merely by individual factors.



I don't know if it's invariable, but it's the case in every western country I've visited and lived in.
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So every western country you have visited has a barely-visible social construct of unwitting bigotry and discrimination against the minority groups in that country?
 
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