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Are Affirmative Action programs racist?[W:110]

Are Affirmative Action programs racist?

  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .
tres borrachos said:
Blacks just can't get a fair shot in the USA. Can you imagine if they had a chance to succeed? Why they could actually aspire to be lawyers, doctors, teachers, CEOs, accountants, Congressmen, judges, Supreme Court judges, singers, actors, models, entrepreneurs, Senators, hell, even the President of the United States. But with everyone being against them, sadly, they will never have those chances.

:roll:
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I think it is sad that certain posters have to constantly create strawmen and straw arguments.

I thought horses preferred grain to straw.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
I think it is sad that certain posters have to constantly create strawmen and straw arguments.

I thought horses preferred grain to straw.
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Cute! Did you think of that all by yourself?

No strawmen from me, my friend. Just pointing out the obvious.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Do you know how foolish and blindly partisan that looks to somebody who has been there and knows the score?

Of course there are shades of gray in anything. Numbnuts put everything in black and white terms and refuse to discuss anything objectively. Oh, there is a success story re affirmative action so see? Affirmative Action is a complete success.

Well I know too many people who are bright, intelligent, capable people who have lived a huge chunk of their careers with many of their colleagues believing they were the 'token black' or 'token something' and got their position purely because of affirmative action. And then there are those who have watched competency and excellence eroded because standards had to be lowered to accommodate affirmative action. And again, affirmative action requires us to separate people by race, gender, and ethnicity and will not allow us to see people as just people. That helps keep racism alive and doesn't allow skin color to become no more important than hair or eye color.

The numbnuts won't even acknowledge, much less discuss this though. It isn't politically correct to consider anything other than the assigned talking points and the leftist religion. And that is tragic.
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There is some truth to what you have said. I don't dispute that. But people usually ignore the fact that AA has had positive effects and in fact was very necessary to correct some of the effects of systemic racism in the US. And I would say, on the whole the positive effects of AA has been worth bearing with the negative effects.
 
Redress said:
To my mind, racism requires a believe of one race being superior or inferior to others. Affirmative action programs make the assumption that certain races have not had the same optunities. That means to my mind that they are racial, not racist.
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Liberals like racial discrimination that benefits one's own minority group.
 
tres borrachos said:
Blacks just can't get a fair shot in the USA. Can you imagine if they had a chance to succeed? Why they could actually aspire to be lawyers, doctors, teachers, CEOs, accountants, Congressmen, judges, Supreme Court judges, singers, actors, models, entrepreneurs, Senators, hell, even the President of the United States. But with all this racism that exists, and every white person being against blacks, sadly, they will never have those chances.

:roll:
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AlbqOwl said:
Do you know how foolish and blindly partisan that looks to somebody who has been there and knows the score?

Of course there are shades of gray in anything. Numbnuts put everything in black and white terms and refuse to discuss anything objectively. Oh, there is a success story re affirmative action so see? Affirmative Action is a complete success.

Well I know too many people who are bright, intelligent, capable people who have lived a huge chunk of their careers with many of their colleagues believing they were the 'token black' or 'token something' and got their position purely because of affirmative action. And then there are those who have watched competency and excellence eroded because standards had to be lowered to accommodate affirmative action. And again, affirmative action requires us to separate people by race, gender, and ethnicity and will not allow us to see people as just people. That helps keep racism alive and doesn't allow skin color to become no more important than hair or eye color.

The numbnuts won't even acknowledge, much less discuss this though. It isn't politically correct to consider anything other than the assigned talking points and the leftist religion. And that is tragic.
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You two ladies are doing a great job here, so I'll keep reading here in this thread and just stay in the other threads to post.

Ya'll got this just fine. :applaud
 
tres borrachos said:
Cute! Did you think of that all by yourself?

No strawmen from me, my friend. Just pointing out the obvious.
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It is total straw, it is an argument that denies racism in America. I've seen it a hundred times, "Obama is proof that racism has ended".
 
tres borrachos said:
Cute! Did you think of that all by yourself?

No strawmen from me, my friend. Just pointing out the obvious.
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Batman%2BG.jpg
 
Gimmesometruth said:
It is total straw, it is an argument that denies racism in America. I've seen it a hundred times, "Obama is proof that racism has ended".
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That's not what she said and you dang well know it. You see? That what you posted?

That's a strawman. Just so you'll know and can recognize one next time.
 
Beaudreaux said:
You two ladies are doing a great job here, so I'll keep reading here in this thread and just stay in the other threads to post.

Ya'll got this just fine. :applaud
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A black man was voted into the most powerful position in the world, and he could not have done it without white votes. That to me says it all.

Is there racism still in this country? Yes, and there always will be. There will always be sexism, people who don't like Hispanics, Jews, Asians, and so on. There are 300 million+ people here. Not everyone will care for everyone else.

My uncle was in the Bataan Death March. That was probably one of the most horrific things that happened to American men in history. He told me he hated Japanese people for years after that, but eventually realized they didn't represent ALL Japanese people. He moved on, still bearing scars and barely being able to talk about it, but moving on. Was slavery bad? Yes. But it wasn't a government act, and it was 150 years ago, it was very few people who owned slaves, none of them are alive today, and today we have a black man as President. What more does anyone need to do?

150 years ago my female ancestors couldn't vote, couldn't be doctors, couldn't be politicians, and so on. Wow. Should I be bitter about it? Nope.
 
Beaudreaux said:
That's not what she said and you dang well know it. You see? That what you posted?

That's a strawman. Just so you'll know and can recognize one next time.
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It is a complete denial of racism in the US:


tres borrachos said:
Blacks just can't get a fair shot in the USA. Can you imagine if they had a chance to succeed? Why they could actually aspire to be lawyers, doctors, teachers, CEOs, accountants, Congressmen, judges, Supreme Court judges, singers, actors, models, entrepreneurs, Senators, hell, even the President of the United States. But with all this racism that exists, and every white person being against blacks, sadly, they will never have those chances.

:roll:
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tres borrachos said:
Oh brother. You think blacks are the only group that's ever been made to feel inferior? Women were inferior until the beginning of the last century. You don't think a lot of people in this country hate Muslims?
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Tell me, in the United States, what group was brought over in boats and enslaved in larger numbers than blacks? Tell me, in the United States what group was systematically prohibited from attending PUBLIC institutions of education on such a large scale as blacks?
tres borrachos said:
Blacks were brought here by free traders, not the US government. It was longer ago than the extermination of Jews and the terrible treatment of the Asians in this country.
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Some of those free traders were, in fact Jews. Jews profited handsomely from the inhumane enslavement of blacks. That's the difference.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
It is a complete denial of racism in the US:
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Guess what? There are people who still think women are too stupid to work or vote, and should be pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, and are second class citizens. Big ****ing deal. That hasn't stopped women from achieving greatness, has it?
 
MildSteel said:
Tell me, in the United States, what group was brought over in boats and enslaved in larger numbers than blacks? Tell me, in the United States what group was systematically prohibited from attending PUBLIC institutions of education on such a large scale as blacks?


Some of those free traders were, in fact Jews. Jews profited handsomely from the inhumane enslavement of blacks. That's the difference.
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Oh, so the Jews in the 20th century deserve to be exterminated because of what some Jews did 200 years before? Is that your point?
 
tres borrachos said:
A black man was voted into the most powerful position in the world, and he could not have done it without white votes. That to me says it all.
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That says WHAT all?

Is there racism still in this country? Yes, and there always will be. There will always be sexism, people who don't like Hispanics, Jews, Asians, and so on. There are 300 million+ people here. Not everyone will care for everyone else.

My uncle was in the Bataan Death March. That was probably one of the most horrific things that happened to American men in history. He told me he hated Japanese people for years after that, but eventually realized they didn't represent ALL Japanese people. He moved on, still bearing scars and barely being able to talk about it, but moving on. Was slavery bad? Yes. But it wasn't a government act, and it was 150 years ago, it was very few people who owned slaves, none of them are alive today, and today we have a black man as President. What more does anyone need to do?

150 years ago my female ancestors couldn't vote, couldn't be doctors, couldn't be politicians, and so on. Wow. Should I be bitter about it? Nope.
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The stupidity of your argument is that affirmative action is not about "bitterness".

It is about getting populations previously repressed promoted to levels that represent their population distribution at minimum.

You certainly ought to be a bit miffed that women who qualify for and do the same work as men do NOT receive the same pay.
 
tres borrachos said:
Guess what? There are people who still think women are too stupid to work or vote, and should be pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, and are second class citizens. Big ****ing deal. That hasn't stopped women from achieving greatness, has it?
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And the only way that women were able to start getting close to men in pay or achievement was to have the opportunity to do so.

F'ing DUH.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Here is something that I found. I guess I didn't realize what Affirmative Action was. I was thinking of racial quotas. The Marine Corps does practice racial quotas. To my understanding racial quotas would violate EEO laws.

Originally Posted by The Difference Between EEO & Affirmative Action | eHow

Affirmative Action

The purpose of Affirmative Action is to address past discrimination against women, individuals with disabilities and minority groups, including Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and American Native Indians. Affirmative Action involves active recruitment of qualified individuals in these groups to make them aware of job and promotion opportunities. Affirmative Action does not mean hiring or promoting unqualified applicants, which could violate EEOC laws. For most companies, Affirmative Action plans are voluntary; however, most non-construction contractors and subcontractors for the federal government must have Affirmative Action plans.

Affirmative Action Plans

Executive Order 11246 requires federal non-construction contractors and subcontractors to develop a written Affirmative Action program if the employer has 50 or more employees and meets any of the following requirements: It has a federal contract or subcontract of $50,000 or more; it has government bills of lading that in any 12-month period are expected to total $50,000 or more; it serves as a depository of federal funds; or it is a financial institution that is an issuing and paying agent for U.S. savings bonds and savings notes.
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AGENT J said:
correct AA/EEO laws are not based on qoutas and in reality they apply to use all and protect us all.

THe confusion people have is that orgs have had quotas or have hired based on race gender etc and CALLED it an AA/EEO program but its not and they have gotten in trouble for it. They tried, and failed, to say they were simply implementing an AA/EEO program but when push came to shove they were found in violation of the law.

Now some people who are simply misinformed run with there defense and assume they were practicing AA/EEO.

Of they have some life event or story that this girl or minority etc etc was hired over this person BECAUSE of AA/EEO and that is false. They can think that, they may have been told that but its false and not the case. AA/EEO does not allow that.
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vasuderatorrent said:
I think it would be better if they knew the difference between Equal Employment Opportunity, Affirmative Action and racial quotas.

I didn't know the difference until just a few minutes ago.
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AGENT J said:
you are correct and many people ASSUME what they are

or they have an illogical fear that if they dont have a woman, a minority, a Muslim, an old person and young person etc they will get sued and lose. But the reality is they are much more likely to be found doing somethign illegal if they do not practice AA/EEO and do give special treatment.

Good job and that is meant with ZERO sarcasm

no matter what a person posts it takes an amount of integrity to simply admit when a person makes a mistake or simply didnt know somethign and you just did so. No matter what it can be said you have shown integrity and i think thats more important than most things here.
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seems some others need to actually learn and go through the same process you did to understand the difference between actual, factual and REAL AA/EEO and not BS made up things called AA/EEO. Once again by definition AA/EEO is factually not racist nor can it be. ANy program that is racist is factually NOT AA/EEO.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
That says WHAT all?

The stupidity of your argument is that affirmative action is not about "bitterness".

It is about getting populations previously repressed promoted to levels that represent their population distribution at minimum.

You certainly ought to be a bit miffed that women who qualify for and do the same work as men do NOT receive the same pay.
Click to expand...

Women get paid what they deserve to be paid. I know I do. Nobody has ever held me back because some people don't care for women and because women were treated like crap until 2 generations ago.

Blacks are no longer repressed. This isn't 1956. A black man is the most powerful man in the world, and it took a lot of white votes to get him there, didn't it?

Blacks are in the upper echelon of every business sector in this country. They are on the SCOTUS, in the government, in academia. They can buy homes, they can move where they choose, they can compete as athletes, they can do everything. That is a fact you can't deny.

My argument isn't stupid. My argument is spot on. What are you looking for anyway? Do you want any man or woman in this country who doesn't like blacks to be shot? Deported? Tell me specifically what you expect to happen to them?
 
tres borrachos said:
Oh, so the Jews in the 20th century deserve to be exterminated because of what some Jews did 200 years before? Is that your point?
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Who said the Jews deserved to be exterminated?

The point is that, IN THE UNITED STATES, blacks have suffered far more abuse than Jews. The fact that Jews profited greatly from the enslavement of blacks is evidence of this.
 
MildSteel said:
There is some truth to what you have said. I don't dispute that. But people usually ignore the fact that AA has had positive effects and in fact was very necessary to correct some of the effects of systemic racism in the US. And I would say, on the whole the positive effects of AA has been worth bearing with the negative effects.
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Which I have always said that affirmative action WAS necessary at a time that some people were barred from opportunity. It WAS necessary to break down cultural barriers and get more people used to the idea that the races did not have to be kept separate. There were black people who were just as eager not to mingle the races at that time too though they weren't so much a part of the cultural problem.'

But those cultural barriers came down a half century ago. That war was won. And now we need to stop fighting it and allow there to be peace.
 
MildSteel said:
Who said the Jews deserved to be exterminated?

The point is that, IN THE UNITED STATES, blacks have suffered far more abuse than Jews. The fact that Jews profited greatly from the enslavement of blacks is evidence of this.
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I twice mentioned about Jews being exterminated, and you responded both times about how Jews were involved in the black slave trade. Did you just post that to see your name in lights, or did you have another point? Because my post was about their extermination. Why don't you weigh in on that? I know. Because it doesn't fit into your posts here.

Black suffered. Is this a history discussion, or are you looking for something in particular?
 
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