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Are Affirmative Action programs racist?[W:110]

Are Affirmative Action programs racist?

  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .
cpgrad08 said:
Because rich people are never punish by the law. Corruption will be always present, but once again I ask how does AA address this or fix this since it race based and economic based.
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You are getting lost in the conversation.

I said this

Mildsteel said

It's not a question of feeling guilty. It's a question of having a government that is fair and just. Blacks were brutally abused in the past and that has had an very detrimental effect on their present condition. A government that endeavors to correct the past evils that it inflicted on a large segment of the population is merely doing what is just, not because of white guilt.
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Your response was

cpgrad08 said

Government corrects this by giving the same standing in the eyes of the laws not by giving special treatment.
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My point is that people are not treated equally in the eyes of the law because people with money are given preferential treatment. Now you can say that such treatment is not part of the law, but in practical terms people apply the laws, and if the law is not being applied equally by people, then the effect is lost.

The point is that AA programs recognize that due to past abuse, blacks are at an unfair disadvantage. One of the crucial factors that accounts for success in corporate America is access to the corporate networks of power. Because blacks were unfairly denied access to those networks for so long, and because as a group they were conditioned to believe that they were inferior to whites, AA programs attempt to put them into positions in corporate America and government such that these difficulties can be compensated for.

I hope we don't keep going around in circles.
 
Excon said:
In general - Wrong.

The underline rarely happens. That is the truth.

And crying because someone can afford better lawyers? iLOL :lamo
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It happens all the time. Otherwise people would not pay better lawyers more money.

I'm not crying, I'm not in court.
 
It is not so much Bundy but the legions of Bundy apologist that made me realize AA is still needed, I did not realize how many racist are left.
tres borrachos said:
Bundy employs minorities. What does he have to do with AA?
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mak2 said:
It is not so much Bundy but the legions of Bundy apologist that made me realize AA is still needed, I did not realize how many racist are left.
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Oh brother.:roll:

Bundy employs minorities, and has never taken any action against them that it any way holds them back from opportunities. He actually is evidence that AA is no longer needed. Even a man who set half of this country into hysterics with his "racist" comments employs minorities. So obviously, there is no issue.

I'm a Bundy "apologist" depending on your definition. And I am not now, never have been, and never will be a racist. Fact.
 
Let me tell you something I know about the negro...yep Bundy simply cares.

The defenders are legion.
tres borrachos said:
Oh brother.:roll:

Bundy employs minorities, and has never taken any action against them that it any way holds them back from opportunities. He actually is evidence that AA is no longer needed. Even a man who set half of this country into hysterics with him comments employs minorities. So obviously, there is no issue.
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mak2 said:
Let me tell you something I know about the negro...yep Bundy simply cares.

The defenders are legion.
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Okay, since we all know that Harry Reid also uses that word, then you have racism permating through the Democratic party because the Senate Majority Leader is obviously a racist. Fair enough. Thanks for admitting that.
 
that word? Bundy is an ignoant racist, anyone who thinks like he does is a racist too.
tres borrachos said:
Okay, since we all know that Harry Reid also uses that word, then you have racism permating through the Democratic party because the Senate Majority Leader is obviously a racist. Fair enough. Thanks for admitting that.
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MildSteel said:
So how do you correct hundreds of years of government sponsored enslavement, torture, rape, and psychological abuse that was directed against blacks without having programs that are specifically designed to give blacks a boost to compensate for the extreme obstacles that were put in their path?
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The point is that no blacks living in the USA or their parents have experienced enslavement, etc. . . . The nation ended that a very long time ago with many MANY Americans shedding their blood and risking all they had to end it. And since then the American people, mostly all those eeeeeeevul white people, have ended segregation and implemented Affirmative Action to give a leg up to any who were disadvantaged by bad social policy.

Those who have done extensive research on black Americans know that at some point following the Civil War, despite lingering racism, discrimination, and segregation, black people were the most rapidly advancing demographic economically right up to Johnson's Great Society initiatives that quite effectively stalled that advancement and in many cases put it into reverse. It was one of those good intentions producing unintended negative consequences things.

But at any case, the war against racism, discrimination, and segregation has been won. It is now time to stop fighting it. If you want to help black people overcome their 'disadvantages, then join with people like me who want to end ALL programs that divide people economically, socially, politically, racially, ethnically. Help us make this a color blind society in which everybody truly is equal or has equal opportunity to be the best they can be in our society.

A culture that demands that black people feel inferior, disadvantaged, or victimized is a society that will continue to separate out black people and keep them down instead of allowing everybody to see them as just Americans like all other Americans.
 
AlbqOwl said:
The point is that no blacks living in the USA or their parents have experienced enslavement, etc. . . . The nation ended that a very long time ago with many MANY Americans shedding their blood and risking all they had to end it.
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There are indeed many people alive today that were forced to attend segregated schools. There are indeed many people alive today that had to sit in separate waiting rooms when visiting the doctors office. There are indeed many people alive today who had to sit in the back of the bus. It wasn't that long ago, and many alive today remember it well.

AlbqOwl said:
And since then the American people, mostly all those eeeeeeevul white people, have ended segregation and implemented Affirmative Action to give a leg up to any who were disadvantaged by bad social policy.
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That is correct. Affirmative Action was implemented to give people a leg up who were indeed disadvantaged by bad social policy.

AlbqOwl said:
Those who have done extensive research on black Americans know that at some point following the Civil War, despite lingering racism, discrimination, and segregation, black people were the most rapidly advancing demographic economically right up to Johnson's Great Society initiatives that quite effectively stalled that advancement and in many cases put it into reverse. It was one of those good intentions producing unintended negative consequences things.
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So you want me to believe that the system of racial apartheid that was practiced in the South following the Civil War was responsible for the rapid advancement of blacks? Sorry, I'm not buying that.

AlbqOwl said:
But at any case, the war against racism, discrimination, and segregation has been won.
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Whoa! That's your problem right there. It has not been won, and you only need to read many of the racist responses on this site to see that the fight has not been won. Therefore AA is still needed.
 
danielpalos said:
those of the opposing view seem to have an entitlement mentality.
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No, it's just that you and others appear to believe the following false notion

AlbqOwl said:
But at any case, the war against racism, discrimination, and segregation has been won.
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That, and some are just racist and hate blacks.
 
MildSteel said:
There are indeed many people alive today that were forced to attend segregated schools. There are indeed many people alive today that had to sit in separate waiting rooms when visiting the doctors office. There are indeed many people alive today who had to sit in the back of the bus. It wasn't that long ago, and many alive today remember it well.



That is correct. Affirmative Action was implemented to give people a leg up who were indeed disadvantaged by bad social policy.



So you want me to believe that the system of racial apartheid that was practiced in the South following the Civil War was responsible for the rapid advancement of blacks? Sorry, I'm not buying that.



Whoa! That's your problem right there. It has not been won, and you only need to read many of the racist responses on this site to see that the fight has not been won. Therefore AA is still needed.
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horsecrap. AA only creates disdain for blacks who get breaks over smarter or better qualified whites or asians. AA tends to substitute race for real disadvantage

most of the black recipients of AA that I met in college or law school were upper middle class kids who often went to expensive private prep schools or affluent public schools and used the guarantee of AA to screw around in college knowing they would still beat out white kids with better grades and work ethics
 
MildSteel said:
That, and some are just racist and hate blacks.
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It happens just as some are racist and hate whites. Or have their own derogatory notions about Christians or Jews or Puerto Ricans or Italians or Japanese or Eskimos. Likewise some resent the rich, blame the poor for their poverty, have contempt for strong women, sneer at effiminate men, think being gay is an abomination, and think all accordian players should be deported to some desert island. Just about everybody hates something.

And you know what? We are ALL entitled to what we love and what we hate so long as we don't violate anybody else's rights.

But for sure racism will continue alive and well as long as public and government policy requires us to be color conscious and separate out a particular racial group for special privileges or benefits or deference or opportunity or sensitivity because they are considered incapable of making it otherwise. It is only when we are allowed to treat all people equally will the color of somebody's skin have any chance to be of no more importance than eye color or hair color.
 
Absolutely they are. So is the NAACP. So are black television channels and black magazines. Anything that focuses on one race over others is racist. Full stop.
 
TurtleDude said:
horsecrap. AA only creates disdain for blacks who get breaks over smarter or better qualified whites or asians. AA tends to substitute race for real disadvantage

most of the black recipients of AA that I met in college or law school were upper middle class kids who often went to expensive private prep schools or affluent public schools and used the guarantee of AA to screw around in college knowing they would still beat out white kids with better grades and work ethics
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If you want to talk "I met" stories, I met this guy and talked to him personally at length. Never met a more brilliant physicist

Meredith C. Gourdine - GHN: IEEE Global History Network

That guy had designed and patented an inkjet printer before anyone even knew what they were. He told me how corporate America operates, how people would steal his ideas, make some small modifications and then make money off of it. If he had been white, there is no telling how far he would have gotten.
 
AlbqOwl said:
It happens just as some are racist and hate whites. Or have their own derogatory notions about Christians or Jews or Puerto Ricans or Italians or Japanese or Eskimos. Likewise some resent the rich, blame the poor for their poverty, have contempt for strong women, sneer at effiminate men, think being gay is an abomination, and think all accordian players should be deported to some desert island. Just about everybody hates something.

And you know what? We are ALL entitled to what we love and what we hate so long as we don't violate anybody else's rights.

But for sure racism will continue alive and well as long as public and government policy requires us to be color conscious and separate out a particular racial group for special privileges or benefits or deference or opportunity or sensitivity because they are considered incapable of making it otherwise. It is only when we are allowed to treat all people equally will the color of somebody's skin have any chance to be of no more importance than eye color or hair color.
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Even if there was no AA, some whites would still hate blacks and practice discriminatory hiring practices to the detriment of blacks.
 
MildSteel said:
If you want to talk "I met" stories, I met this guy and talked to him personally at length. Never met a more brilliant physicist

Meredith C. Gourdine - GHN: IEEE Global History Network

That guy had designed and patented an inkjet printer before anyone even knew what they were. He told me how corporate America operates, how people would steal his ideas, make some small modifications and then make money off of it. If he had been white, there is no telling how far he would have gotten.
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that has no relevance to the point I made.
 
TurtleDude said:
that has no relevance to the point I made.
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Yes it does. It means that there have been and are very qualified blacks who have been screwed around because of racial discrimination.
 
MildSteel said:
Yes it does. It means that there have been and are very qualified blacks who have been screwed around because of racial discrimination.
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that does not justify very qualified whites being screwed over by AA.

Have you ever considered the fact that AA also screws over very qualified blacks too?
 
TurtleDude said:
that does not justify very qualified whites being screwed over by AA.

Have you ever considered the fact that AA also screws over very qualified blacks too?
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AA was put in place to give blacks who would otherwise be still getting screwed around a chance.
 
Redress said:
To my mind, racism requires a believe of one race being superior or inferior to others. Affirmative action programs make the assumption that certain races have not had the same opportunities. That means to my mind that they are racial, not racist.
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That is an interesting point (apologies for pulling this from page one though).

However, my main issue with AA or any similar system which determines entry in whole or in part on race is that it doesn't really address the issue.

The issue is that some people don't have the same opportunity access that others do - due to financial situation, location, and (possibly?) race/sex, in descending order of affect.

If you grant one of these disadvantaged persons entry into a position they would otherwise not get, due to their background, you had better provide remedial/catch up training.

Better IMO to eliminate the disadvantage entirely.

This is one reason that I am vehemently opposed to property taxes for school funding, not to mention property taxes in general. Actually, any location/area-based funding for education, unless it is a large area (like a state, or even a country).

Some of the disparity in education quality can be assigned to environment (family situation, location, financial situation, etc.), and some to low-quality school staff (both teachers and administrators), yet in the end if the money is not there, the quality will not be there either.

So I think that one way to address the disparity would be to fund public schools differently.

Actually, are public schools always funded via property taxes? I know they are in PA...

Damn I went a bit off track there...sorry, pet topic.
 
MildSteel said:
Even if there was no AA, some whites would still hate blacks and practice discriminatory hiring practices to the detriment of blacks.
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And their would be some of Minority status that would do it to whites. It does go both ways.
 
cpgrad08 said:
And their would be some of Minority status that would do it to whites. It does go both ways.
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How many blacks are CEOs of fortune 500 corporations? How many whites are CEOs of fortune 500 corporations?
 
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