Is Snowden a traitor?

solletica said:

No one cares whether someone who lives in cuckoo-land sees himself as "correct."

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:shrug: The author correctly describes Snowden's status based on his actions. It is his actions not the self-justifications that he offers that define whether or not he is a traitor.

Legal avenue - lifetime imprisonment
Illegal avenue - success

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Ah, no. Legal Avenue would have broken no laws, hence, he would have never gone to jail. In fact, it would have been criminal to attempt to do so, and whomsoever attempted to put Snowden in jail would have been liable to end up there himself instead.

cpwill said:

SIGINT is among the most closely held secrets of any nation.

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What cpwill is saying is that the Russians don't know what signal intelligence is or have no comparable capabilities of their own, and if one believes that, I have some cheap wild black sturgeon to sell you

cpwill said:

The Russians are good. We are better.

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Yes, WE the people (i. e. Snowden and his bros) are better.

The US govt., however, sucks (fortunately), or else it wouldn't have hired someone (i. e. Snowden) who could so easily turn against it.

cpwill said:

And Snowden took four laptops with every method and program and technique the NSA used that he could cram on them to Russia.

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Right, and the cheap caviar (mentioned above) is waiting for anyone who genuinely believes the FSB was dumb enough not to already know everything on that laptop and have already developed means to circumvent the NSA's spying abilities.

Tralfamadore said:

Even in the context of whistle-blowing - of exposing injustices committed by one's own government? Journalism should have a special protection which exists outside normal realms. Otherwise, all you have is a propaganda machine.

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He is not a journalist.

Alyssa said:

If people blindly follow the government, that is nothing more than fascism.

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Um, no, that is not fascism. Why are people so in love with trying to attach negative labels to things they do not like?(Hint: that applies in more than one way to this thread, see if you can make the connection)

Μολὼν λαβέ;1063201114 said:

Exposing government corruption on a global level trumps any man made law.

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I disagree. I do not trust Joe SixPack to make informed decisions based on limited knowledge on what should and should not be revealed.

solletica said:

What cpwill is saying is that the Russians don't know what signal intelligence is or have no comparable capabilities of their own, and if one believes that, I have some cheap wild black sturgeon to sell you

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Uh, no. What I am saying is that the Russians are very good at signals intelligence, and do indeed have comparable structure, organizations, and capabilities, and that ours are (well, were) simply better. Sort of like, "The Russians do indeed have fighter jets, and the Pak-50 is a good bird. But the F-22 would win in a head-to-head".

Yes, WE the people (i. e. Snowden and his bros) are better.

The US govt., however, sucks (fortunately), or else it wouldn't have hired someone (i. e. Snowden) who could so easily turn against it.

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No. We The People do not have much of a cyber network operations capability at all, and are, in fact, extremely vulnerable. The U.S. Government has(had) an excellent offensive capability, and has(had) a moderate defensive capability.

Right, and the cheap caviar (mentioned above) is waiting for anyone who genuinely believes the FSB was dumb enough not to already know everything on that laptop and have already developed means to circumvent the NSA's spying abilities.

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:doh One does not have to be dumb in order not to know things. For example, our intelligence communities have many very brilliant people (and so do the Russians) who are dedicated to keeping secrets secret. The idea that the FSB must already know all of our most closely held secrets just because, well, just because they are a spy agency is ludicrous. Existence does not mean omniscience.

cpwill said:

:shrug: if an elected official is deliberately wrecking the Constitution, then absolutely are douchebags. That doesn't make anyone who fights them a hero, anymore than Stalin because a Freedom Fighter because he fought Hitler.

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Stop saying stuff I can agree with. Just stop it. It makes me feel all funny.

Redress said:

I disagree. I do not trust Joe SixPack to make informed decisions based on limited knowledge on what should and should not be revealed.

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Yeah, but at the same time, he's soveriegn, and it's tyranny not to recognize that government can only legitimately exercise powers with his permission.


Gosh. If only there were some way for Joe Six Pack to take part in some kind of grand process where he and all the Joe Six Packs were able to devolve their decision making authority onto some representative or group of representatives capable of making decisions at a national level..... :roll:

cpwill said:

:shrug: The author correctly describes Snowden's status based on his actions. It is his actions not the self-justifications that he offers that define whether or not he is a traitor.

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The definition of a traitor is one who works for the enemy. By that definition, Snowden was only a traitor once, when he worked for the US govt.

However, he's since redeemed himself by leaving the enemy (the govt.) and joining us, which means he's no longer a traitor.

cpwill said:

Ah, no. Legal Avenue would have broken no laws, hence, he would have never gone to jail.

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The US govt. can lock up anyone it wants indefinitely without trial by labeling him/her an "enemy combatant." Laws are irrelevant.

Redress said:

Stop saying stuff I can agree with. Just stop it. It makes me feel all funny.

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No. YOU are saying stuff I agree with. Please now rant about how Snowden is a hero and the second coming of Thomas Jefferson because you hate the fact that the President personally reads all your emails. I just ate, and it's bothering me.

:lol:


For some issues it's left v right. And for some issues, it's common sense v crazy. This is just one of those.

solletica said:

The definition of a traitor is one who works for the enemy. By that definition, Snowden was only a traitor once, when he worked for the US govt.

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Only if he was a citizen of a country with which we were at war at the time. The Federal Government is not our enemy, although people who think that have two choices: either A) demonstrate that they lack the courage of their convictions and instead of standing up and fighting their enemy, retreating to internet ranting or B) go start killing soldiers and politicians. Let us know which one you choose.

However, he's since redeemed himself by leaving the enemy (the govt.) and joining us, which means he's no longer a traitor.

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Oh. So you are a member of the Russian government?

But that's an interesting sentiment. Do you think that all of our soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen, firefighters, police, intelligence analysts, CBO statisticians, trash-collectors, etc., are traitors?

The US govt. can lock up anyone it wants indefinitely without trial by labeling him/her an "enemy combatant." Laws are irrelevant.

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:doh The IG process is created specifically to allow this sort of thing to flow up with no damage done to national security. People have not only used it repeatedly in sensitive situations, they have even used it directly against extremely powerful people within the DOD, and furthermore, they've won when doing so, because they used the system correctly. Had Snowden contacted any of the multiple IG chains or the congressional route available to him he would have been not only well outside the definition of enemy combatant (hint: enemies do harm, using the IG system to whistleblow is attempting to keep from doing harm), but he would have been immune to prosecution.

cpwill said:

No. YOU are saying stuff I agree with. Please now rant about how Snowden is a hero and the second coming of Thomas Jefferson because you hate the fact that the President personally reads all your emails. I just ate, and it's bothering me.

:lol:


For some issues it's left v right. And for some issues, it's common sense v crazy. This is just one of those.

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If the president reads my emails, he would be pretty bored. Here at DP, I operate under the assumption(based on zero evidence) that the admins can read my PMs. I hope they do. Beyond my talking about anime and manga with a couple people, discussing Japanese culture and places I would like to visit there(Akiba, so much), occasionally talking wrestling, there is nothing of interest.

To me, this whole issue is about incorrect framing. It is not whether Snowden is a hero or villain. That is a value judgement. The question to me is whether we as a country can afford to not pursue every legal avenue to bring him to trial and prosecute him with the full weight of the law. To my mind we cannot. Security must be secure. That is a vital interest for the country, and I do kinda love my country. The information is now out there that Snowden released, and that does have to be examined and judgements made on that. Can't put Pandora back in the box as the saying goes, and it is an important discussion. I do think, based on the information, that improvements need to be made on legal oversight of covert ops and intelligence in general. That however in no way changes that security must be secure, and that as part of that, those who engage in espionage must be prosecuted.

I find the idea that we should judge whether some one should be tried for crimes based on ideology and not the rule of law to be somewhat repellant. And further, I cannot understand how others are not equally repelled. Next time the Joe SixPack might not be some one who sees things as they do.

cpwill said:

Uh, no. What I am saying is that the Russians are very good at signals intelligence, and do indeed have comparable structure, organizations, and capabilities, and that ours are (well, were) simply better.

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I agree--ours, i. e. we the People have better capabilities at our disposal.

The US govt., OTOH, runs second place to the FSB. Always has--during the Cold War, the KGB consistently outgunned the CIA and NSA on intelligence.

cpwill said:

No. We The People do not have much of a cyber network operations capability at all,

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WRONG. Ever heard of Wikileaks?

Furthermore, any software engineer worth his/her salt could develop a crude system transporting data using strong encryption over a steganographic transport layer, using publicly available information or software, given only a few months of work. Such a system would very easily circumvent the NSA's spying capabilities (the NSA can't break strong encryption).

And many--notably organized criminal organizations, drug cartels, and even hedge funds--have already done so and currently use the systems.

If it weren't for such systems, then mass insider trading--a bedrock of Wall St.--would be impossible. You apparently don't understand computer science and/or steganography or encryption.

cpwill said:

and are, in fact, extremely vulnerable. The U.S. Government has(had) an excellent offensive capability, and has(had) a moderate defensive capability.

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Yep, it's so "good" that it outsources its intelligence technology to contractors that hire workers that can very easily jump ship and spill the beans :lol:

cpwill said:

:doh One does not have to be dumb in order not to know things. For example, our intelligence communities

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You're confusing "our" (i. e. We the People) w/the US govt.

cpwill said:

have many very brilliant people (and so do the Russians) who are dedicated to keeping secrets secret. The idea that the FSB must already know all of our most closely held secrets just because, well, just because they are a spy agency is ludicrous. Existence does not mean omniscience.

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The actions of the NSA that Snowden revealed were nothing new. IN fact, the UK Guardian reported on those exact same revelations months before Snowden revealed them.

Even otherwise, it's ultimate in naive to assume that one's govt. (which works for powerful institutions within the private sector) doesn't attempt to do everything it can to spy on everything and anything, legally or illegally.

Simply stated, anyone who has power will abuse it. The End.

Redress said:

If the president reads my emails, he would be pretty bored. Here at DP, I operate under the assumption(based on zero evidence) that the admins can read my PMs. I hope they do. Beyond my talking about anime and manga with a couple people, discussing Japanese culture and places I would like to visit there(Akiba, so much), occasionally talking wrestling, there is nothing of interest.

To me, this whole issue is about incorrect framing. It is not whether Snowden is a hero or villain. That is a value judgement. The question to me is whether we as a country can afford to not pursue every legal avenue to bring him to trial and prosecute him with the full weight of the law. To my mind we cannot. Security must be secure. That is a vital interest for the country, and I do kinda love my country. The information is now out there that Snowden released, and that does have to be examined and judgements made on that. Can't put Pandora back in the box as the saying goes, and it is an important discussion. I do think, based on the information, that improvements need to be made on legal oversight of covert ops and intelligence in general. That however in no way changes that security must be secure, and that as part of that, those who engage in espionage must be prosecuted.

I find the idea that we should judge whether some one should be tried for crimes based on ideology and not the rule of law to be somewhat repellant. And further, I cannot understand how others are not equally repelled. Next time the Joe SixPack might not be some one who sees things as they do.

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Bingo. What I find most entertaining about that aspect is, the very defense that they are setting up (the legalization of the concept of every individual a slave to his conscience) in order to defend Snowden also removes their ability to criticize anyone who put the programs he exposed into place. They are, after all, only doing what they feel they must. :roll:

Redress said:

If the president reads my emails, he would be pretty bored. Here at DP, I operate under the assumption(based on zero evidence) that the admins can read my PMs. I hope they do. Beyond my talking about anime and manga with a couple people, discussing Japanese culture and places I would like to visit there(Akiba, so much), occasionally talking wrestling, there is nothing of interest.

To me, this whole issue is about incorrect framing. It is not whether Snowden is a hero or villain. That is a value judgement. The question to me is whether we as a country can afford to not pursue every legal avenue to bring him to trial and prosecute him with the full weight of the law. To my mind we cannot. Security must be secure. That is a vital interest for the country, and I do kinda love my country.

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Sounds like you love your govt., as opposed to your country.

cpwill said:

Only if he was a citizen of a country with which we were at war at the time.

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You have a pronoun problem--you keep using the word "our" to refer to the US govt.. The word "our" refers to us, we (i. e. the People).

If you want to refer to the US govt., you should say "they" or "it."

cpwill said:

The Federal Government is not our enemy, although people who think that have two choices: either A) demonstrate that they lack the courage of their convictions and instead of standing up and fighting their enemy, retreating to internet ranting or B) go start killing soldiers and politicians. Let us know which one you choose.

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Killing pols would be bad strategy, and it's not necessary.

cpwill said:

Oh. So you are a member of the Russian government?

But that's an interesting sentiment. Do you think that all of our soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen, firefighters, police, intelligence analysts, CBO statisticians, trash-collectors, etc., are traitors?

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WE don't have any soldiers, marines, or police. Only the US govt. has those things.

cpwill said:

:doh The IG process is created specifically to allow this sort of thing

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It's theoretically impossible for organizations w/an agenda (i. e. the NSA) to police themselves.

solletica said:

I agree--ours, i. e. we the People have better capabilities at our disposal.

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I am here to tell you you are simply incorrect. The U.S. citizenry does not have the computer network attack or computer network defense capability set of the United States Government, any more than We The People have a better air force, navy, or better tank units.

The US govt., OTOH, runs second place to the FSB. Always has--during the Cold War, the KGB consistently outgunned the CIA and NSA on intelligence.

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No. The KGB often outpaced the CIA and our CI capability sets because they were on an even playing field in HUMINT, which is the CIA's bailwick. Their SIGINT wins were the result of their HUMINT victories.

WRONG. Ever heard of Wikileaks?

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.... :facepalm: Wikileaks is not a cyber network operation, nor an organization capable of launching one. Anonymous is such an organization, but lacks the resources and advanced techniques available to state actors. Anonymous is probably not even as good at CNO as Iran.

Furthermore, any software engineer worth his/her salt could develop a crude system transporting data using strong encryption over a steganographic transport layer, using publicly available information or software, given only a few months of work. Such a system would very easily circumvent the NSA's spying capabilities (the NSA can't break strong encryption).

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Okay. But I find it interesting that you A) insist it is so easy to avoid any decryption cracking and B) believe apparently that no one in the U.S. government is aware of that fact, and that the FSB is therefore able to collect on everything we do

And many--notably organized criminal organizations, drug cartels, and even hedge funds--have already done so and currently use the systems.

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Many criminal organizations do indeed use cyber.

If it weren't for such systems, then mass insider trading--a bedrock of Wall St.--would be impossible. You apparently don't understand computer science and/or steganography or encryption.

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I don't pretend to be a computer scientist. However, I do understand the IC a bit.

Yep, it's so "good" that it outsources its intelligence technology to contractors that hire workers that can very easily jump ship and spill the beans

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You are confusing "business structure" with "capability set". That's like saying "the Florida Seminoles may have won the BSC championship, but they aren't a very good football team because their waterboy up and quit". The NSA is indeed the best in the world at what it does.

You're confusing "our" (i. e. We the People) w/the US govt.

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The U.S. government belongs to us. It is ours. You own it. If it's broken, it's your fault. They are our military. Our Intelligence Community. Ours.

The actions of the NSA that Snowden revealed were nothing new.

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Interesting. I wonder why all the fuss then :roll:

IN fact, the UK Guardian reported on those exact same revelations months before Snowden revealed them.

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Given that Snowden was in talks with those reporters prior to his even taking employment with Booz Allen, that's not terribly surprising.

Even otherwise, it's ultimate in naive to assume that one's govt. (which works for powerful institutions within the private sector) doesn't attempt to do everything it can to spy on everything and anything, legally or illegally.

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That is incorrect - in fact, I would label that belief naive, because it seems to work from the presumption that government has unlimited resources. For example, the IC does not collect on our eating habits much, simply because it would represent a waste of resources that could be better employed elsewhere.

Simply stated, anyone who has power will abuse it. The End.

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True. That is why we have divided government, and divide even the branches of government via our factions.

solletica said:

Sounds like you love your govt., as opposed to your country.

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So in fact you do think that soldiers, school teachers, firefighters, etc., are all traitors who are at war with the people? Well why are you here whining about it on a stupid internet forum? Pick up a gun! You are at War!

cpwill said:

:roll: Dude. Whether or not they broke the Constitution (they didn't, as described in the Supreme Court Case United States v Graham) has absolutely zero impact on whether or not Snowden is a traitor for releasing all that he has. Opposition to the Metadata program does not require support of a guy who happens to release it along with releasing a whole bunch of other stuff as well.

Spied on everyone without authorization? Firstly, the metadata program didn't cover the communications of all U.S. citizens, secondly, it didn't collect content or even individually identifying information, and thirdly, it was authorized by all three branches of government and both political parties, not once, but repeatedly. There is literally no greater level of authorization that a collection program can receive.


Do you intend to defend Snowden putting our troops in Afghanistan in harms way by releasing the methods by which we collect against the Taliban?

Do you intend to defend Snowden putting our national security at risk by releasing how we conduct cyber network operations against China?

Do you intend to defend Snowden releasing how we collect against North Korea? How about Russia? Hey, has Russia done anything lately that really, really, surprised our executive branch? Gosh, if so, you don't think that our sudden inability to collect against them has anything to do with that surprise, a lack of situational awareness leading to inept policy decisions, do you?


You want to argue against the metadata program, I get that. I'm sympathetic to the argument (simply because something might be Constitutional does not make it right). But that's a separate question from whether or not Snowden is a traitor. His actions define that, not whether or not you oppose one of the many collection programs that he's exposed.

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There's no denying Snowden hurt this countries intel gathering ability. I never argued those facts but only questioned, whether his methods of exposing the invasion of privacy by the intel community was constitutionally legal? Constitutional law trumps all other laws and rules, period. If what he did supported the nation's highest legal document, then he did no traitoring, they did. They would've of killed, interred and done anything possible to stop him or anyone, not because of the sensitive nature of the info but because it was wrong.

You want to Google a bunch of internet horse**** about all his misdeeds, point by point, rather than discuss the philosophy and morality of what he's done.

grip said:

There's no denying Snowden hurt this countries intel gathering ability. I never argued those facts but only questioned, whether his methods of exposing the invasion of privacy by the intel community was constitutionally legal? Constitutional law trumps all other laws and rules, period. If what he did supported the nation's highest legal document, then he did no traitoring, they did.

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Even if exposing the NSA metadata program wasn't treason because the program was unconstitutional (I am not saying that it was), that would not mean that all the other things that he exposed would not be sufficient to make him a traitor. Benedict Arnold was a traitor, despite the fact that he successfully led U.S. troops. Against the British. Failure to break the law in once instance does not suffice to cover ones' breaking the law in another.

They would've of killed, interred and done anything possible to stop him or anyone, not because of the sensitive nature of the info but because it was wrong.

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That is simply incorrect. The IG and whistleblowing process are protected explicitly to encourage people who have concerns to bring them forward within the system by protecting them from retribution. Had Snowden used the IG system or the congressional reporting system the information would have remained secret and it would have nonetheless challenged the program and forced review by actors whose interests are against the power of those who instituted and ran the program. To respond to that by targeting Snowden, on the other hand, would have convinced the tens of thousands of people with access to our nations top secret information that they would be better off going to the press rather than attempting to use the system in place. It would have been insanely self-destructive for the IC or the administration to target or prosecute anyone making an IG or congressional complaint. Additionally, Snowden would have been legally immune from prosecution.

You want to Google a bunch of internet horse**** about all his misdeeds, point by point, rather than discuss the philosophy and morality of what he's done.

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I want to point out what he has done because that is what determines whether or not he is a traitor. His actions determine that independent of what philosophy he claims.

cpwill said:

So in fact you do think that soldiers, school teachers, firefighters, etc., are all traitors who are at war with the people? Well why are you here whining about it on a stupid internet forum? Pick up a gun! You are at War!

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Last I heard, neither Snowden nor Assange used guns or tanks, and they scored major hits.

War 101: not all attacks involve physical violence

Amazing the response here. The most telling thing that I can see is the general mistrust of the US government shared by so many Americans at this point in history. Well, I'm part of that demographic. But to label Snowden some sort of whistle-blowing patriot? That's idiotic and anyone on the left with a triple digit IQ knows it. Snowden compromised many military secrets. Do you think he cared a wit about how many American lives he compromised with his actions? He's a traitor by every definition we've ever been taught to understand. So now he skulks in a Kremlin broom closet. What a hero. What a man of his convictions. Oh, and who do you suppose he turned all those military secrets over to? You don't think he got his bit of sanctuary for free?

solletica said:

Last I heard, neither Snowden nor Assange used guns or tanks, and they scored major hits.

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Ah. So what are you doing then? Since you are "at War".

War 101: not all attacks involve physical violence

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One of us is actually a certified information operations planner. Guess which one of us that is?

pogomutt said:

Amazing the response here. The most telling thing that I can see is the general mistrust of the US government shared by so many Americans at this point in history. Well, I'm part of that demographic. But to label Snowden some sort of whistle-blowing patriot? That's idiotic and anyone on the left with a triple digit IQ knows it. Snowden compromised many military secrets.

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The US govt. doesn't have any military secrets--everyone w/noodle knows it does anything and everything it can, legally or illegally, to accomplish the objectives of its sponsors, w/out limits. All plutocracies work that way.

Snowden only revealed what smart people already know--that the US govt. doesn't work for the people and that it's serial law breaker.

solletica said:

The US govt. doesn't have any military secrets

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:lamo

Really? What is the maximum capability of the Patriot intercept system?

Hint. You don't know it. Because it's a military secret. And it ought to be.