• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

  • Total voters
    93
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
His will to deny business is authoritarian so fight fire with fire:2razz:
Click to expand...

Is that a yes or a no?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
Fighting fire with fire is a yes.
Click to expand...

So you feel you have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will. Fascinating.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
So you feel you have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will. Fascinating.
Click to expand...

No, I'm not violating their body or property. Simply, they may have to risk going to court for due process.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
No, I'm not violating their body or property. Simply, they may have to risk going to court for due process.
Click to expand...

So you don't think that you yourself have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will. But you think that there are other people who have such a right. In what way are these people different and special?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
when you are on another persons property, you have no exercisable rights.....you cannot pray, bear a firearm, have free speech, protest, or force me to engage in commerce with you.
Click to expand...

Disagree. These rights are still there and still exist. Exercising them may result in the property owner revoking your privilege to be on his property, but the property cannot remove nor prevent their exercise. I find this to be a very important distinction. You can invite me on your property. Once I am on your property, you cannot infringe upon my free speech rights. Asking me to leave because you do not like what I said when exercising my right of free speech does nothing to infringe upon that right and is well within your personal property rights. Any attempt to silence me (outside of trying to out-shout me or telling me to be quiet) while I am on your property and/or while I am leaving, however would be a violation of my free speech right and you are not legally allowed to do so.

ernst barkmann said:
you dont seem to understand, each one is an exercisable right.......the right to commerce is exercisable.
you cannot exercise a right to commerce on my property.
Click to expand...

This right does not exist. The right is to seek a person to engage in commerce with. Even on your own property you have no right to commerce. You still only have the right to seek someone to engage in commerce with. If they are on your property and do not wish to engage in commerce with you then there will be no commerce. You right to seek someone to engage in commerce with has not been violated.

Glen Contrarian said:
Let me condense your last paragraph: "Why can't we discriminate against gays?"

It's the same old story - you care less about people being free from discrimination than you do your 'right' to discriminate.
Click to expand...

Incorrect. The method is as important as the goal. The end does not justify the means. Seeking a world free from discrimination should not be done at the cost of freedoms and rights. We seek the end of such improper discrimination through education and social pressure, not the threat of the gun via law.

Glen Contrarian said:
Okay, guy, go ahead then - kick blacks out of your business and tell them that it's your civil right to not serve blacks in your business if you don't want to...and watch what happens.

You won't even get any sympathy from Hannity or O'Reilly, much less from those of us on the left. You'd get less sympathy than the "Sovereign Citizen" wackos get. But don't let all that stop you, now - just go on and follow up in real life with what you're writing down here, y'hear?
Click to expand...

What is so funny about this is that none of us (at least as far as I can tell) would ever do something like this. Most of us have even stated as much. Our position is no different than a person being personally against abortions and yet recognizing that there is a right for the woman to do with her body as she wishes to. We might preach and protest and socially pressure for abortions and discrimination not to happen, but we don't want laws to prevent them because those laws violate rights.

rabbitcaebannog said:
His will to deny business is authoritarian so fight fire with fire:2razz:
Click to expand...

I find it amazing that you only have a problem with the denying of business in one direction.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
So you don't think that you yourself have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will. But you think that there are other people who have such a right. In what way are these people different and special?
Click to expand...

Due process is
: a course of formal proceedings (as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles —called also procedural due process
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
Yes, they know that I don't think I have the right to initiate violence against them or anyone else.
Click to expand...

No no no...come now - you're telling them how oh-so-non-violent you are, but are you telling them word-for-word that you believe that you believe business owners have a right to deny business to them because of their race?

Are you really?

Somehow I'm pretty sure of what your answer will be....
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

TurtleDude said:
you are the one who seems to think that blacks are less able to control their emotions than whites.
the government not interfering with what private businesses do is hardly government approved racism

you need to learn what the terms mean
Click to expand...

Riiiiight. You really think that if whites had been through centuries of slavery, another century of Jim Crow against whites that people still alive today would remember very well, that we wouldn't be fighting every bit as hard to not be discriminated against?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
my right to discriminate is not a civil right, its a natural right, civil rights are created by governments.....you cannot use a government created right as a tool of force on another citizen, the rest of your argument is an emotional rant.
Click to expand...

You make sure to try to make that argument to the cops, the press, and the judge, y'hear?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
Riiiiight. You really think that if whites had been through centuries of slavery, another century of Jim Crow against whites that people still alive today would remember very well, that we wouldn't be fighting every bit as hard to not be discriminated against?
Click to expand...

Jews have-how much violent crime is committed by young men wearing Yarmulkes?

You weren't talking about fighting discrimination-you talked about VIOLENCE
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
They can also fire you if you are involved in political activities they don't agree with, if you smoke, start to gain weight, and I can't think of one thing that is off limits to them even on your own personal time. Oh, and thank you for bringing up internet and social media. The list is endless. And, you keep reinforcing my resource argument so thanks. As I illustrated they most certainly can control your actions in life and not just limited to his property. It's called authoritarian.
Click to expand...

when you work for a company, and you do things which reflects on them they can fire you, and again you have no exercisable rights on their property...you cannot smoke, and if weight gain effects their image, then the can fire you.

you cannot use social media, to bash the company you work for........that is the basics of understanding working on a job!

wrong.. a company cannot be authoritarian, because it has no hold on you , you are free to leave and seek employment else where.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
You make sure to try to make that argument to the cops, the press, and the judge, y'hear?
Click to expand...

excuse me, but its seems you are off topic, the op is do you have a right to discriminate or freedom from discrimination.

your ability to not understand ..rights of the people is your problem
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
when you work for a company, and you do things which reflects on them they can fire you, and again you have no exercisable rights on their property...you cannot smoke, and if weight gain effects their image, then the can fire you.
Click to expand...

You can also get fired for doing stuff they don't like on your own property or someone else's property. That was my point not just they can fire you for anything on their property. That's a given. You can't even use social media to talk about things they may not like in your private life. You risk losing your job if they don't like it. Yes, you can seek employment else where and all of the above still applies. At will companies are authoritarian. There is no getting around it.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
The Civil Rights Act of 1964, which outlawed segregation and prohibited discrimination against African-Americans, was passed under the Commerce Clause in order to allow the federal government to charge non-state actors with Equal Protection violations, which it had been unable to do up to that point because of the Fourteenth Amendment’s limited application to state actors. The Supreme Court found that Congress had the authority to regulate a business that served mostly interstate travelers in Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States. 379 U.S. 241 (1964). It also ruled that the federal civil rights legislation could be used to regulate a restaurant, Ollie’s Barbeque, a family-owned restaurant in Birmingham, Alabama because, although most of Ollie’s customers were local, the restaurant served food which had previously crossed state lines. Katzenbach v. McClung, 379 U.S. 274 (1964).
Commerce clause | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute
Click to expand...

The commerce clause was abused in that situation. The commerce clause is supposed to only allow the government to regulate sales between the states and sales with other countries. It was never meant to regulate private businesses. It's not the first time its been abused.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Objective Voice said:
Why are you arguing with me when we see the same thing on this issue?

Public pools = taxpayer funded, city/county government run = no discrimination allowed

We see this issue the same way. Why you felt the need to go on a rant about it is beyond me.:2wave:
Click to expand...

Sorry, guess I misunderstood you. I apologze. :2wave:
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
In YOUR world, there is no right to not be discriminated against. But in the world that MOST Americans live in, we DO have a right to be free from discrimination. If you want to live somewhere that you can discriminate against others as you will, there's plenty of third-world nations where that's the norm.

And your 'friends' claims are laughable - at NO point is there any kind of requirement that Thou Shalt Be Friends With Person X. That's just you bringing up yet another strawman.
Click to expand...

1: You can only speak for yourself.

2: I've given the proof that we have that right by referenceing the Rights that apply. Where is your proof?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:
The commerce clause was abused in that situation. The commerce clause is supposed to only allow the government to regulate sales between the states and sales with other countries. It was never meant to regulate private businesses. It's not the first time its been abused.
Click to expand...

That's your opinion.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

AlbqOwl said:
Let me qualify my remarks to follow with my 100% honest opinion that the gay person should be seated and treated no differently than any other patron; I would verbally tell the owner off and walk out of any establishment who would refuse to seat him; and I don't believe there is any moral justification for discriminating against him in that way.

But by what criteria do we dictate to any person who he must or must not serve with a business he owns, that he took all the risks to open and finance, that he has put in his time, blood, sweat, and tears to make a success? What did that gay person (or anybody else) contribute to that success that entitles them to demand service from that proprietor?
Click to expand...

Other than buying what their selling? Nothing.

Let me ask you this. Should banks, assuming most businesses have to get loans to open up, be able to dictate that said business serve everyone in order to get the loan they need?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

DashingAmerican said:
Other than buying what their selling? Nothing.

Let me ask you this. Should banks, assuming most businesses have to get loans to open up, be able to dictate that said business serve everyone in order to get the loan they need?
Click to expand...

Very few banks are purely private institutions. All are essentially contractors of and subject to license and regulation and funding by the U.S. government; therefore public access must be non discriminatory. A purely private business is a very different animal. While I have no problem saying that the moral and ethical and smart business practice would be to serve and accommodate all people, I also know that if a person is not free to make wrong choices too, he or she has no freedom at all.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
That's your opinion.
Click to expand...

No actually its not. Its historical fact. Read up on the Founders Notes. The States did not want the Federal government interfereing with what happened inside the States.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
Riiiiight. You really think that if whites had been through centuries of slavery, another century of Jim Crow against whites that people still alive today would remember very well, that we wouldn't be fighting every bit as hard to not be discriminated against?
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity why are you making this about whites vs every other race out there? You do realize that the rights we are talking about applies to them as business owners right? A black business owner has just as much Right to refuse service to a white person as any other race, including whites.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

maquiscat said:
Disagree. These rights are still there and still exist. Exercising them may result in the property owner revoking your privilege to be on his property, but the property cannot remove nor prevent their exercise. I find this to be a very important distinction. You can invite me on your property. Once I am on your property, you cannot infringe upon my free speech rights. Asking me to leave because you do not like what I said when exercising my right of free speech does nothing to infringe upon that right and is well within your personal property rights. Any attempt to silence me (outside of trying to out-shout me or telling me to be quiet) while I am on your property and/or while I am leaving, however would be a violation of my free speech right and you are not legally allowed to do so.
Click to expand...

let me be clearer....you have rights which can be exercised, however you cannot exercise them on my property If I do not want you to, I can ask you to leave at anytime. if you seek to disrupt I will can call the police, if you use force, I can return force



maquiscat said:
This right does not exist. The right is to seek a person to engage in commerce with. Even on your own property you have no right to commerce. You still only have the right to seek someone to engage in commerce with. If they are on your property and do not wish to engage in commerce with you then there will be no commerce. You right to seek someone to engage in commerce with has not been violated..
Click to expand...

your correct its just a matter of wording, and I worded it incorrectly I don't have a right to commerce in a sense of, I will have commerce, I have the right to seek as you say commerce if an individual or more would wish to transact with me.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
You can also get fired for doing stuff they don't like on your own property or someone else's property. That was my point not just they can fire you for anything on their property. That's a given. You can't even use social media to talk about things they may not like in your private life. You risk losing your job if they don't like it. Yes, you can seek employment else where and all of the above still applies. At will companies are authoritarian. There is no getting around it.
Click to expand...

yes, we is were we can find agreement, some companies are getting involved in your personal life which has nothing to do with the company you work for, ..one of the reasons I want contract law, you and your company come to terms on employment, as long as you fulfill your end of the written contract, they cannot fire for things they just don't like.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom