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Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

  • Total voters
    93
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
Even though he may have some sort of justification for doing so,no individual has the right to violate (or threaten to violate) the body or property of his fellow man in order to coerce him into engaging in trade with someone against his will. Saying, "well, I consider your business to be 'open to the public'" makes no difference. No person has the right to initiation such aggression against someone just to force them to trade with someone against their will.
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And the blacks would walk in and demand service, the business owner would call the cops and they would be forced to enforce the law by physically removing the blacks...and reporters would be getting the whole thing on tape and it would be viewed around the world literally in less than a minute.

And what would happen then? I think you know. How many innocent people would die in the ensuing riots? And is that really where you want America to go?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
I'm coming to complete a business transaction not anything else. You can hate me all you like.
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well stop making demands on me.....you have no right.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Mustachio said:
I think there are three kinds of people who believe we should repeal parts of the civil rights act and allow businesses to discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. You've got:

A. Libertarians who believe that if we give businesses the right to discriminate, that's not only what our founding fathers would want but also everything will work itself out anyway because of free market or supply and demand or freedoms and liberty something.

B. Racist/sexist/otherwise bigoted people who own a business or wouldn't want to serve black/female/gay people if they did own a business.

C. People who have no understanding of history or how horrible and racist and bigoted some people are.

You can't argue with A, because they either understand what they're advocating for and don't care or they don't understand what they're advocating and cannot be told. The ghost of Christmas future would have to visit them and show them what would happen if the civil rights act were repealed for them to understand that anti-discrimination laws are a large part of what is preventing black Americans (among others) from be treated as lesser people and suffering greatly in large portions of the country.

You can't argue with B, because they want an America where black people are treated as sub-human. Or gay people, or Jewish people, or in rare cases, everybody except themselves.

You can argue with C, because their opinion is usually not well formed enough to make them immune to developing a cohesive point of view on the subject. It is to this group that I remind them that my ancestor died because of discrimination. The only reputable hospital he could get to for an emergency appendectomy refused to treat him because he was a Jew. He went to the only hospital that would treat Jews and they "accidentally" killed him. I put that in quotations because they killed a lot of people they were trying to save. Just business as usual.

So many people are mistaken about the effects of discrimination. Multiple posts have referred to the effects of discrimination as being merely "offensive," implying that the only reason we have these laws are so that minorities won't be upset about not being served. No, discrimination would literally destroy lives. So believe whatever you want, but remember that when you argue that we should do away with anti-discrimination laws, you're advocating for a system under which people are allowed to die when they would be saved if they were white, or christian, or straight. Is that a system you'd call just?
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Well said! I have to wonder how many of the people opposing freedom from discrimination actually believe what they say, or if some of them are just trolling...because even given your experience and mine, it's hard to think that in this day and age, nearly one-third of the poll supports "freedom to discriminate".
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
that is not constitutional law.......that is federal law.........federal law does not rule over rights, which are constitutional law.

federal law is subordinate to constitutional law
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The CRA-1964 is Constitutional.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
One cannot achieve justice by acting unjustly.
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have you been watching "how green is my valley?


"for you cannot achieve justice with injustice, only justice"
 
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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
It's not legal rhetoric. It's simple ethics.

Nobody has the right to violate the body or property of his neighbor to coerce him to do business against his will. It's unjust. One cannot achieve justice by acting unjustly.

That's why, despite the fact that I abhor discrimination, I can't justify choosing to initiate aggression in order to prevent it. The initiation of aggression is not the answer. I would choose another way.
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One person's ethics are another person's insanity. Again, you're hiding behind the exact same kind of Orwellian double-speak rhetoric that segregationists used: "See? They're completely equal to us because we both have our own schools and entrances and water fountains!" Never mind that EVERYONE could see that the schools and entrances and water fountains that the blacks were allowed to use were always in crappy condition.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
this is what happens when people think they create rights, and can give or abolish them, whenever they choose...........ohhhhhhh! the evils of democratic forms of government
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Why am I not surprised you're on the Right?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
If the guy makes a racist statement to several of them...OR if they can document (on paper or on video) that he is serving only whites and refuses service to blacks.
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IOW, it's almost impossible to prove and virtually unenforcable, unless you require everyone to accommodate everyone.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:
The CRA-1964 is Constitutional.
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only part of it, the part which prohibits government from discrimination.

you cant make a federal law, which takes away a right.....or do you think government can take away rights whenever they wish to.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
And the blacks would walk in and demand service, the business owner would call the cops and they would be forced to enforce the law by physically removing the blacks...and reporters would be getting the whole thing on tape and it would be viewed around the world literally in less than a minute.

And what would happen then? I think you know. How many innocent people would die in the ensuing riots? And is that really where you want America to go?
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I don't see it playing out the way you do. I honestly couldn't even imagine a business opting to exclude anyone based on anything. They could never get away with it in this day and age. The press they got would drive them out of business. It would be like being exposed as using the N word times ten thousand. Public outcry would be over the top (as it ought to be)

You're not going to convince me that acting in a way that I basically consider criminal (initiating aggression against my fellow man) is the only possible solution to racial discrimination. I won't support it, and I urge others, if they value justice, to not support it either.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
Why am I not surprised you're on the Right?
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i am on the side of the constitution, i will blast anyone on the right, which goes against constitutional law!
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
those laws are passed by governments, and that's illegal,governments cannot discriminate by constitutional law.

constitutional law does not apply to the people ,it applies to government only, ....no federal law, or state law is above the rights of a citizen.

the bill of rights restricts the federal government and states from taking any action which violates.... right to property
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Soooo...what nation today or in the past had what you feel to be the right kind of government?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

mpg said:
IOW, it's almost impossible to prove and virtually unenforcable, unless you require everyone to accommodate everyone.
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No, it's not impossible to prove...it simply takes time and effort...and the wheels of justice grind slowly, but exceeding fine.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
well stop making demands on me.....you have no right.
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I'm not making an unjustly demand. You're open for business. I'm acting respectful and will pay what you want for your product. Why can't I buy it? The man in front of me did and so did the man behind me. Please explain.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
One person's ethics are another person's insanity. Again, you're hiding behind the exact same kind of Orwellian double-speak rhetoric that segregationists used: "See? They're completely equal to us because we both have our own schools and entrances and water fountains!" Never mind that EVERYONE could see that the schools and entrances and water fountains that the blacks were allowed to use were always in crappy condition.
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Nope. I opposed segregated government services. The government must treat all people equally.

Regarding your comment on ethics, do you feel that you have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
No, it's not impossible to prove...it simply takes time and effort...and the wheels of justice grind slowly, but exceeding fine.
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almost impossible
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
I don't see it playing out the way you do. I honestly couldn't even imagine a business opting to exclude anyone based on anything. They could never get away with it in this day and age. The press they got would drive them out of business. It would be like being exposed as using the N word times ten thousand. Public outcry would be over the top (as it ought to be)

You're not going to convince me that acting in a way that I basically consider criminal (initiating aggression against my fellow man) is the only possible solution to racial discrimination. I won't support it, and I urge others, if they value justice, to not support it either.
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I can see it because I know the South. Remember, even now we still have some places in the South that have segregated high school proms. Racism is stronger there than most non-Southern people realize. And all it would take is just one successful racist business to start us down that vicious circle to a market-enforced Jim Crow era.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
Soooo...what nation today or in the past had what you feel to be the right kind of government?
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the founders, when they created a republican form of government, of divided power, with no dominate factor ruling.

democratic governments have a dominate factor" the people", and the people when given all the power will rule as tyrants by majority rule,....which is what i am seeing by people opposing constitutional law.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
i am on the side of the constitution, i will blast anyone on the right, which goes against constitutional law!
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Like where the Constitution allows the federal government to regulate any and all interstate commerce?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:
So you are incapable of discerning just from unjust discrimination? It's amazing you can function.
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I can distinguish between what I find a just opinion and a just expression thereof and what I find disturbing. I can distinguish between what i think is wrong or right. But no. In an objective sense within a relatively broad band, I do not think that we are capable of distinguishing objectively. So if someone is to be allowed to make the decision? Otherwise I don't think I want people or, God forbid, the government holding such power.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
I'm not making an unjustly demand. You're open for business. I'm acting respectful and will pay what you want for your product. Why can't I buy it? The man in front of me did and so did the man behind me. Please explain.
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if you tell me, I MUST SERVE YOU , that's a demand anyway you wish to slice it....and its unconstitutional by the 13th amendment
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
the founders, when they created a republican form of government, of divided power, with no dominate factor ruling.

democratic governments have a dominate factor" the people", and the people when given all the power will rule as tyrants by majority rule,....which is what i am seeing by people opposing constitutional law.
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So...you hearken back to the Articles of Confederation, then?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
Like where the Constitution allows the federal government to regulate any and all interstate commerce?
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wrong...that is incorrect, the Constitution states the power to regulate..AMONG the states.....not inside them.

this power was given the the federal government to prevent trade wars and barriers, which states were creating by laws between states under the articles of confederation, causing commerce in America to come to a stand still.

it is in 1942, the court ruled the federal government would regulate inside states.............why?..........because a farmer grew to much wheat according to the government to feed to his cows!!
 
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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
if you tell me, I MUST SERVE YOU , that's a demand anyway you wish to slice it....and its unconstitutional by the 13th amendment
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No, your not a servant your a businessman. You are not there to serve me but to conduct business.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
So...you hearken back to the Articles of Confederation, then?
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i dont have to , here is the Constitution itself...


article 4 section 4



The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.
 
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