Homeschooling[W:199]

Re: Homeschooling

Henrin said:

No, I'm talking about twisting facts or just leaving out details to push forward an agenda. I can remember countless examples of this from my years in public school looking back on it now.

The thing about history is that you can easily tell the story in a positive light or a negative light by what facts you present and how you present them. Oh and btw, those people were trespassing, not just sitting in doing something noble. See, details matter.

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Yes, you're going to run into people with agendas of their own all the time in the educational system. It's the peril of treking out into the outside world and interacting with large numbers of humans. Dismantling critical thinking skills and celebrating logical fallacies is the worst possible way to deal with this. If anything, critical thinking is that much more important because from the time you're born you quickly learn that everybody wants to sell you something or draw you into their belief system, and only critical thinking can handle that. Rejecting all other though outright isn't strong. It's weak and demonstrates insecurity.

Re: Homeschooling

Cardinal said:

Yes, you're going to run into people with agendas of their own all the time in the educational system. It's the peril of treking out into the outside world and interacting with large numbers of humans. Dismantling critical thinking skills and celebrating logical fallacies is the worst possible way to deal with this. If anything, critical thinking is that much more important because from the time you're born you quickly learn that everybody wants to sell you something or draw you into their belief system, and only critical thinking can handle that. Rejecting all other though outright isn't strong. It's weak and demonstrates insecurity.

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I'm still interested to know why you think public schools teach critical thinking.

Re: Homeschooling

Cardinal said:

I'm not singling out Christians, I'm singling out homeschoolers.

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Actually you using people that home school their children to attack religion. You're doing this by using a very poor generalization that people that home school their children are doing it because they hate science and history. Public schooling didn't teach you how to hide your agenda very well, did it?

Re: Homeschooling

Cardinal said:

We have one home-schooled member on this forum that's (mostly) the exception to everything I'm about to say.

Homeschooling is mostly for the benefit of preventing children from learning things like evolution or any associated "liberal" ideas. The only way to achieve this is, sadly, to permanently dismantle any ability to demonstrate critical thinking, one of the results of which is that logical fallacies are not only to be expected but celebrated. While such home schooled kids tend to be superior in reading, writing and arithmetic, their lack of critical thinking and hostility to science (particularly, scientific concepts deemed to be threatening to their faith) results in something that is a heartbeat away from child abuse, in my opinion. Their permanently misshapen brains make them unsuited to interacting with the world outside of their tiny, religious communities.

Oh, ask a home schooled person their thoughts on history, and you'll get all sorts of crap like, "Christians invented law" or "The gays brought down the Roman Empire." It's a hoot.

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You have no clue of which you speak. Home schooled children routinely kick butt on all the standardized exams. There are exceptions but then there are exceptions in public schools. You epitomize the intellectual laziness and arrogance and out right bigoted view of the so called educated elite. The KKK and your kindred spirits have much more in common than would you care to examine.

Re: Homeschooling

I'm strongly considering going into education after college, but I still won't homeschool my kids. I'd rather my children be in public schools so that they're given the element of interaction that isn't provided from me making them stay home to do work alone. I've done a couple summers of online classes, while it may not be exactly like homeschooling, it still lacks the element of interaction offered by public schooling. It sucks.

Re: Homeschooling

Cardinal said:

Is knowing that Antarctica exists really necessary? Is music or sports necessary? Is knowing about the planets necessary? Is knowing anything about what goes on outside of your town and the magical places those trucks come from that deliver your food and supplies really necessary so long as you get them? An education is mostly to functionally prepare a child for life, but it's also to expand their minds.

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Of course. However, evolution is ultimately just one small aspect of that. It's also an aspect that doesn't necessarily exist on a "need to know" basis anyway.

Simply being vaguely aware of evolution as a concept (which is what the vast majority of public school graduates are) doesn't serve any particular benefit that I am aware of.

It's like being able to name all fifty states. It's esoteric trivia more than anything else.

I'm not in the sciences myself, but I find evolution fascinating in thinking on the way animals behave and why, how the earth and our solar system formed, etc. It's broadening if nothing else, like any other knowledge expand our appreciation for the universe. Teaching a hostility of these things is limiting in a way I find sad, especially when you consider that there's no good reason for why any of these things should logically be opposed to religion.

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I don't disagree, but I don't think it's necessarily "harming" anyone either. The vast majority of these kids will be introduced to the concept in college anyway.

They can either take it or leave it there.

I'm not talking about Christians. I'm talking about home-schooled people.

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The same still applies. What evidence is there to suggest that they are any less "logical" than anyone else?

You have a particularly good grasp of Ancient Roman history. Surely even you cringe when you hear someone claim that it was the homos that brought down the Roman Empire.

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I'd agree that it's a pretty stupid argument.

By the same token, however, have you seen some of the crap people educated in the public educational system believe? :lol:

I won't name names, but there's a particular ultra-Left Wing poster here on DP who is basically notorious for posting those kinds of goofy propagandistic arguments. I think you know who. lol

Re: Homeschooling

Cardinal said:

Yes, you're going to run into people with agendas of their own all the time in the educational system. It's the peril of treking out into the outside world and interacting with large numbers of humans. Dismantling critical thinking skills and celebrating logical fallacies is the worst possible way to deal with this. If anything, critical thinking is that much more important because from the time you're born you quickly learn that everybody wants to sell you something or draw you into their belief system, and only critical thinking can handle that. Rejecting all other though outright isn't strong. It's weak and demonstrates insecurity.

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Since when have our public schools taught critical thinking?

Re: Homeschooling

Homeschooling is a very viable option and in many cases can be superior to public schooling. I fully support a parent's right to homeschool.

I was homeschool and graduated with a BS in molecular biology in 2012, worked on a cancer research project that got published and am now working on a doctorate. I scored well on the ACT and on an evaluation test among my peers that I take every year have not scored below the 89th percentile (meaning I'm in the top 11%. Last year I was in the top 3%). Not to boast, but the idea that homeschooling is inefficient or bad really is moot. Many of my homeschooled friends are also doing very well with more among us outpacing our peers when it comes to education and academics.

Re: Homeschooling

I wouldn't homeschool, but why on earth would I say it is not a viable option? It's a legitimate option, even if many want to do it because of their conception of Jesus Christ and the world.

Re: Homeschooling

I have been a public high school teacher for 17 years. If I had the chance to raise my kids again, and I knew what I know now, then I most definitely would home school my kids.

The problems with homeschooling as I see it are; a lack of knowledge of the parent in various subjects, either an ultra right-wing or an ultra left-wing attitude that the parents indoctrinate into their children and a lack of socialisation and interaction with peers. The positive aspects to homeschooling are; the parent can ensure that their child knows how to read, write and comprehend various texts before they move to the next level, a chance to take the child out of a class room environment to explore various venues any time the lesson needs it, the child is not constantly stressed due to bullying and the lack of left-wing indoctrination which I assure you happens constantly. All our text books are politically correct and many times a student has asked a question and I tow the politically correct line to ensure that I am not faced with a backlash. Lefty teachers can say what they want but a conservative teacher has to be very careful with what they say.

At the start of every new year, the number of students in Year 7 classes who cannot read, write or comprehend texts, who cannot even sit in a chair correctly, who do not know how to listen, have no manners and definitely no respect for anyone, not their peers and not their teachers, is increasing. As I said before, at the beginning of this year, 1/5 of Year 7 students who started at my high school have a reading, writing and comprehension level of a Year 1-3 student. They have been shoved through the system and will be until they are old enough to leave school. That does not happen with homeschooling as the parent can ensure that their child can read, write and comprehend various texts and they are not just shoved through.

A key word in the universe is balance. Teach knowledge, analysis and critical thinking skills, various ideas and ideologies from around the world, respect for oneself and others, a strong work ethic and a love of learning, and a "balanced" child will be the result. My four grand daughters all go to public schools and they are doing pretty good, but that's because they have been taught the things I mentioned and their parents are involved in their learning.

Re: Homeschooling

Cardinal said:

If the result is to inculcate a hostility to evolution and critical thinking in general, and to celebrate logical fallacies and rewrite history, then yeah that's a problem.

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Accepting liberal dogma ≠ critical thinking. As for evolution, give me a break. What is taught in public schools is liberal creationism - evolution applies everywhere except to present-day humanity and evolution has nothing to say about us. As for revisionist history, you wouldn't happen to be a freshly wakened Rip van Winkle, would you? Liberal revisionism of history is running rampant.

Re: Homeschooling

No, I do not intend to home-school my children, barring extraordinary circumstances.

I think as long as the public schools in the area are decent, kids will receive a better quality education and be more socially well-adjusted going to public school than being home-schooled. If you're looking at very poor quality public schools (inner-city schools, or very poor rural districts for example), or the kids have special needs, home-schooling might be a better option.

Re: Homeschooling

LadyMoonlight said:

The positive aspects to homeschooling are; the parent can ensure that their child knows how to read, write and comprehend various texts before they move to the next level,

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IF smaller class sizes are beneficial to student outcomes, then it's very difficult to imagine an outcome more ideal than one teacher and one or two students. Talk about individualized learning plans and focusing on the needs of the student. And bonus point - no union issues, no administration issues and no national issues which subvert student learning in order to advance other goals.

a chance to take the child out of a class room environment to explore various venues any time the lesson needs it

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Exactly right. Like one parent being able to live in Europe for 8 months and home schooling the kids as they travel about and immerse themselves in new cultures. Or sailing around the world with kids in tow. And of course there are the more mundane aspects which I assume you meant.

Re: Homeschooling

My sister was home schooled for religious ideas. My mother is extremely religious, and felt like my sisters peers were a bad influence on her. My sister did graduate high school via home school but is one of the most poorly adjusted people I know. She's an absolute basket case. She can't even go shopping by herself. Now my sister-in-law, she homeschooled her kids (for religious reasons) and they are fantastic kids - well adjusted socially, excelling in college, etc.

I homeschooled my daughter for 1 year, because she was doing so poorly in school. Not for religious reasons, but because my social butterfly daughter cared more for talking and goofing, than for academics. I pulled her for one year, homeschooled her via a private homeschooling program, and she went back to high school in the 10th grade on the A/B honor roll. She's still doing well. Not as well as she was doing via homeschool, but still doing well.

I would never hold homeschooling against anyone - my only caveat is that it's extremely important to make sure that the child is very well socialized. Don't just rely on the kids in the neighborhood. Homeschooling is so mainstream now that there are homeschooling field trips, proms, and a lot of other things. Socialization is so important. I just can't stress that enough.

Re: Homeschooling

Ikari said:

Since when have our public schools taught critical thinking?

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Since no one on the left will bite, I'll give it a go from a conservative viewpoint that had his kids in public school.

It depends, like most anything else about public schools, on the teacher.

My kids had a number of teachers that enforced critical thinking skills. To the dismay of many a student and their parents, I might add. One in particular was an AP English teacher in the 11th grade that gave a novel a week to the kids to read and write a 1000 word essay on by Friday. And he didn't shy away from the good ones either; like Uncle Tom's Cabin, and other writings that helped shape our culture. He required them to dissect the book from two differing viewpoints (protagonist and antagonist), and explain in detail the motivations behind each character from a sociological and societal standpoint of the time within the novel and then against today's "accepted norm." Note - this teacher was not a liberal, although the others that instilled critical thinking skills were. This guy would hammer the kids to make them explain their conclusions and why they came to those conclusions. This invariably would get into personal beliefs and prejudiced ideological viewpoints that were instilled in the kids by their parents, society and the media (hence the pissed off parents). Within weeks, the kids as well as the parents hated him - I was one of them (at first). However, by the end of the year, the kids loved him. He taught them how to think for themselves. How to not take any position, no matter how much it was approved or accepted by society, as correct. He showed them how that they themselves must take the available information, evaluate their own views against the information available and render a conclusion or view based on that evaluation. The key being that they had to defend their position and many a heated debate occurred. I was privileged toward the end of the year to be invited to attend one of the debates on a Friday with another parent (a progressive) on the other side. This time though, the kids ran the debate, and asked the questions. I learned very quickly that the kids in that particular class had had their brains opened and turned on by this guy. And if your wondering, both me and the progressive guy took our share of bruises during the affair. It was great.

Maybe this answers your question, maybe not. At least I stepped up though.

Re: Homeschooling

My main concern is that the parent isn't disciplined or qualified to teach their children at home. I think however offering school choice outside the public school system is the real answer. These are schools with licensed educators where often a liberal arts education is offered that promotes critical thinking. Not like No Child Left Behind or Common Core where learning the answers to specific questions in order to pass a series of tests and often not understanding the why except it is the correct answer really sucks!

Re: Homeschooling

Homeschooling is in fact illegal here.

I remember that some years ago the father of a family which had it`s children homeschooled was even sentenced to serve time in jail.

To give you a better understanding of this, these laws are meant to prevent parents from indoctrinating their children in undemocratic, uneducational or antisocial ways (teaching them racism, fascist ideologies or raising them with an "education" that wont be able to get them a job later in life.).

Re: Homeschooling

I think most public schools are crap. I learned next to nothing during my entire time in public high school - plus there was the bullying (I avoided it because I was pretty big, but I saw/heard of it go on a fair bit). And I learned far more in a month in a private school (granted, an expensive one) then I learned in a year in a public one.
Outside of social reasons and they are semi-'free'...I see no good reason to send children to public school. Unfortunately, most people cannot afford private school.

As for homeschooling, it TOTALLY depends on the parents. And there is that lack of social skills worry...though if your child is a member of a lot of clubs/team sports, I think that concern is minimized.
Basically, if the parents are reasonably intelligent, well-adjusted and very good parents; then I think home schooling can be FAR superior to public school. Lot of 'if's' there though.

Re: Homeschooling

Usually homeschooled kids are one side of the bell curve. Either they're academically superior to those who are homeschooled, or are given no structure and end up without rudimentary skills.

As far as socialization, same thing. If coddled, they can be ill-prepared for society, but they can also be very well-adjusted.

People who think only negatives about homeschooling are probably less worldly than the children they're slandering. Also, full integration into society isn't always great, since much of society is f'ed up.

Re: Homeschooling

I was homeschooled and my therapist says I'm just fine.

Re: Homeschooling

TeleKat said:

Do you homeschool your children and do you think you think it's a viable option for other families?

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I've homeschool our two special needs kids at various points when they were younger. There's a lot more to school than people realize and when your children can't quite function in a busy environment you really end up without a choice.

It's viable and necessary *sometimes*

But it's not ideal for *everyone* - it requires organization, attention to detail, dedication, and a lot of tylenol.

Re: Homeschooling

I have one family member who was homeschooled from pre-school through 12th grade. When he was ready for highschool, his parents enrolled him in the public school so he could participate in HS activities. Within two weeks he was begging to come home. "They are teaching stuff I was learning 3 years ago" he said, "And they waste so much time." So his mom and dad, neither who have more than a HS education themselves, took him on through his senior year. He sailed through his SATs scoring in the upper 90 percentile, and finished his bachelor's degree is a little over 3 years. He is one of the most outgoing, gregarious, well-adjusted, popular young men anybody would hope to meet--a national rodeo champion--and has more than 1000 friends on his Facebook page.

Our church sponsors a program called AWANA that has some 400 kids in it--most of them are not members of our church. Almost all are homeschooled. The city has probably a half dozen other AWANA groups meeting in other places. These kids are bright, extremely well informed, well mannered, all have lots of friends, and it is extremely rare that one gets involved with illegal substances or runs afoul of the law. Almost all go on to good universities and do very well. The AWANA kids generally can boast better records than our regular youth group most of whom are attending public schools.

National statistics overall show that homeschooled kids excel academically over all other groups--private schools come next--parochial schools next--and public school come in dead last.

I was public schooled as were my children. But I am a huge fan of home schooling.

Re: Homeschooling

DVSentinel said:

No, I don't use it, I don't have children.
Yes. It's a viable option. Especially for those who cannot afford private schools. It is one of only two known ways to avoid Liberal/socialist brainwashing of the public schools.

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Wherever you were schooled, they should have taught you about dictionaries.

Re: Homeschooling

Gathomas88 said:

Of course. However, evolution is ultimately just one small aspect of that. It's also an aspect that doesn't necessarily exist on a "need to know" basis anyway.

Simply being vaguely aware of evolution as a concept (which is what the vast majority of public school graduates are) doesn't serve any particular benefit that I am aware of.

It's like being able to name all fifty states. It's esoteric trivia more than anything else.

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Some piece of knowledge being ultimately peripheral in importance and that same knowledge being specifically quashed has very different ends...and different consequences. Learning the 50 states only to visit fourteen of them vs. being deliberately told that there are no 49 other states so as not to contradict the idea that one's own state is the only one are completely different things.

I don't disagree, but I don't think it's necessarily "harming" anyone either. The vast majority of these kids will be introduced to the concept in college anyway.

They can either take it or leave it there.

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I disagree. When the attempt to constrict a person's knowledge of the world (universe) is deliberate and ideological in origin that is harmful.

The same still applies. What evidence is there to suggest that they are any less "logical" than anyone else?

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Heh. Next time I run into a homeschooler who proudly uses all of the who's who of logical fallacies I'll let you know and you tell me.

I'd agree that it's a pretty stupid argument.

By the same token, however, have you seen some of the crap people educated in the public educational system believe? :lol:

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I'm sure there's some pretty stupid crap out there. As I said before, there are legitimately bad school systems even here in California, the details of which were frankly shocking to a good, freshly scrubbed New Englander like myself. And while that is often the pretext for homeschooling, the homeschoolers I myself encounter are almost invariably of the religious, ideological type.

I won't name names, but there's a particular ultra-Left Wing poster here on DP who is basically notorious for posting those kinds of goofy propagandistic arguments. I think you know who. lol

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Actually I'm not familiar with that person, at least not so that I'd automatically know who you're referring to.

Re: Homeschooling

disneydude said:

Every home-schooled person I have ever met is badly socially adjusted. I know parents who home-school who really try to involve their kids in outside activities to socialize them, however, many don't....and even those who do are not always successful.

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I've had the same experience. One of the most important parts of being in school is learning to socialize with people around you. Without that vital training, people will be ill-adjusted.

Liberal/socialist agenda? The ideas of Darwin are not some secret liberal agenda, denying them won't make them go away, it will only retard scientific progress in our country and allow others to surpass us.