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Do The Rich Pay Too Much Federal Income Taxes

Do The Rich Pay Too Much Income Taxes

  • Total voters
    90
tres borrachos said:
Maybe this is mentioned elsewhere in this thread but I heard on the news yesterday that 90% of all federal taxes are paid by 20% of the population. If that's true, it's appalling.
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Yeah... but the rich make such a disproportionately high income that those stats are practically irrelevant. I saw Hannity last night and he was going over this but never takes into account that the 50% of the population that is poor is only paying 10% of the amount and that is because they make such crap wages. There is no way that the CEO making multiple millions is worth more than the people that make up the company.
 
longview said:
I am not sure what is funny about expecting my Government to act fiscally responsible?
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The same people that want lower taxes are the same people that want the government to be fiscally responsible. You don't find that too be funny?

It's like a household that makes $20,000 who lives on $40,000 and tries to cut their expenses to make up the $20,000 difference. It's very funny.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Yeah... but the rich make such a disproportionately high income that those stats are practically irrelevant. I saw Hannity last night and he was going over this but never takes into account that the 50% of the population that is poor is only paying 10% of the amount and that is because they make such crap wages. There is no way that the CEO making multiple millions is worth more than the people that make up the company.
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And yet the owners of the corporation who employ that CEO are willing to dig deep into their pockets and pay him that salary because they believe he is worth that pay. Funny, isn't it. You're declaring that he's not worth it and you're not paying his salary, but those who are paying his salary are validating his worth to the company. Now, I ask you, who has a better vantage point from which they can determine a CEO's worth to the company, you or the shareholders?
 
IMO, the first $8-10,000 should have a zero tax rate and every amount above that should have exactly the same tax rate - whether income or capital gains...with the only deduction being for charitable contributions.

Taxes would be truly fair and truly simple.
 
pbrauer said:
Answers:

Yes

No

I don't Know
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If more people acted like a Gates or a Buffet or any of the other insanely wealthy and voluntarily gave up 50- 99% of their wealth and realized they still had more than they could probably spend in their lifetimes, I would be inclined to say that number is too high. Would anyone have a problem with the walton family's enormous wealth if they actually put most of it back into the economy and didn't rely on government programs to subsidize the poop that they pay their workers?
 
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RiverDad said:
And yet the owners of the corporation who employ that CEO are willing to dig deep into their pockets and pay him that salary because they believe he is worth that pay. Funny, isn't it. You're declaring that he's not worth it and you're not paying his salary, but those who are paying his salary are validating his worth to the company. Now, I ask you, who has a better vantage point from which they can determine a CEO's worth to the company, you or the shareholders?
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Salaries are so bloated and have been for so long that it is the system. People don't go down in salaries and people making money (share holders) and the board are about money... not the workers actually building the company. No person deserves a million dollars a year for their work. No work is that important.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Salaries are so bloated and have been for so long that it is the system. People don't go down in salaries and people making money (share holders) and the board are about money... not the workers actually building the company. No person deserves a million dollars a year for their work. No work is that important.
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Tell that to Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Daniel Craig, Julia Roberts, and Tiger Woods.
 
phildozer9121 said:
Would anyone have a problem with the walton family's enormous wealth if they actually put most of it back into the economy.
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What are you going on about now? Do you imagine that the Walton family wealth is sitting as cash in their private underground bank vaults in Arkansas? Most of their family wealth is being put to use in the economy, it forms the shareholder capital of Walmart. Those stores have to be paid for, developers don't just build huge stores and give them away to retailers.
 
RiverDad said:
Tell that to Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Daniel Craig, Julia Roberts, and Tiger Woods.
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I would say that they probably do deserve their salaries because the public drives their salary based on performance. It is not the same with businessmen.
 
RiverDad said:
Tell that to Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Daniel Craig, Julia Roberts, and Tiger Woods.
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All of these people pay rather large amounts of taxes on income, as I feel they should, on the income they earn.

The citizens who hold trillions of dollars in offshore accounts are those who I feel should pay more, not people making a couple hundred grand. Though they should have to pay their share, currently the tax system seems to result in the middle (when I say "middle" I mean not obscenely wealthy) having to pay the lions share while the people who hold the lions share of the wealth pay little.

Thank God the government is trying to close the ridiculous loopholes that allow these freeloading scum to pass the buck to the middle class.
 
RiverDad said:
What are you going on about now? Do you imagine that the Walton family wealth is sitting as cash in their private underground bank vaults in Arkansas? Most of their family wealth is being put to use in the economy, it forms the shareholder capital of Walmart. Those stores have to be paid for, developers don't just build huge stores and give them away to retailers.
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I think that is something that is rarely considered when data comes out about the net worth of somebody.

I would guess that less than 2% of the wealth of these millionaires/billionaires is liquid. Bill Gates has a net worth of $74,494,269,445. I have a hard time believing that he keeps $1,489,885,388.90 in his bank account.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I would say that they probably do deserve their salaries because the public drives their salary based on performance. It is not the same with businessmen.
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Aside from bankers who got bailed out (read: failed) and are still there I don't see how you make this point. I agree CEO pay is ridiculous, but in the private sector performance is still pretty important.
 
Joby said:
All of these people pay rather large amounts of taxes on income, as I feel they should, on the income they earn.

The citizens who hold trillions of dollars in offshore accounts are those who I feel should pay more, not people making a couple hundred grand. Though they should have to pay their share, currently the tax system seems to result in the middle (when I say "middle" I mean not obscenely wealthy) having to pay the lions share while the people who hold the lions share of the wealth pay little.

Thank God the government is trying to close the ridiculous loopholes that allow these freeloading scum to pass the buck to the middle class.
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Do you have links showing who these individuals are that hold trillions in overseas accounts? Also, can you show where any derived income is not being taxed?
 
Joby said:
All of these people pay rather large amounts of taxes on income, as I feel they should, on the income they earn.

The citizens who hold trillions of dollars in offshore accounts are those who I feel should pay more, not people making a couple hundred grand. Though they should have to pay their share, currently the tax system seems to result in the middle (when I say "middle" I mean not obscenely wealthy) having to pay the lions share while the people who hold the lions share of the wealth pay little.

Thank God the government is trying to close the ridiculous loopholes that allow these freeloading scum to pass the buck to the middle class.
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The poor get out of taxes because they don't have any money. It's very hard to collect. The wealthy get out of taxes because they can hire both legal and illegal resources to get out of it. I don't see how this will ever change. Some people don't care what the laws say.

Here is an example at how different classes of people view certain laws:

The law says, "Don't burn tires. If you do, you will be fined $5,000 per tire."

A middle class or poor person interprets that law to mean, "Don't burn tires."

An obscenely wealthy man interprets that law to say, "It cost $5,000 to burn a tire."
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't support the concept that they should pay so much more when they don't get additional benefits. Indeed, most billionaires are doing plenty for society. some aren't but many are. they certainly USE less government than those millions

ability to pay appeals to the masses but is hardly fair
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You are confusing a consumers retail purchase with a citizens tax obligation. They have nothing to do with one another and confusing them is a serious logical fallacy which dooms your position.

As a member of the American society, how much you pay in taxes is irrelevant to your tax bill. That is simply reality and for you to insist on a connection is simply factually wrong.

When one goes to Costco and fills their basket with what they want, it is right and proper for them to evaluate the benefit of the items with the price they pay. But that does not apply to a citizens tax obligation.
 
Joby said:
Aside from bankers who got bailed out (read: failed) and are still there I don't see how you make this point. I agree CEO pay is ridiculous, but in the private sector performance is still pretty important.
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I am only talking about their salaries... no businessman deserves 1 million a year or even more. The disproportionality between salaries, and then tax contribution, is ridiculous.
 
pbrauer said:
Answers:

Yes

No

I don't Know

The 2013 tax tables are below:
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No, the rich aren't paying nearly enough - not as long as they have the poor working at wages so low that they have to have government assistance in order to have food, shelter, and clothing. First ensure that all entry-level workers are paid a living wage (as the 'Father of Capitalism' Adam Smith himself said was proper), and THEN come back and ask us about who's paying too much or too little taxes.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am only talking about their salaries... no businessman deserves 1 million a year or even more. The disproportionality between salaries, and then tax contribution, is ridiculous.
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Who are you to determine what others should earn?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
I think that is something that is rarely considered when data comes out about the net worth of somebody.

I would guess that less than 2% of the wealth of these millionaires/billionaires is liquid. Bill Gates has a net worth of $74,494,269,445. I have a hard time believing that he keeps $1,489,885,388.90 in his bank account.
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So when Kobe sees his measly millions in taxable income he pays 39.6% on federal income tax, plus the state taxes of California. And Cali loves that entertainment money.

Meanwhile, Mr Gates will pay either 15% or 20% tax on the capital gains he makes from stock or dividends (it would not surprise me if he claims $0 income from Microsoft just to pay no capital gains) assuming they qualify as "long term."

That's how I understand it. I am wrong? If not then that's an issue for me.

edit: Like Lincoln said, A dollar from labor should be valued higher than one from capital.
 
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Gipper said:
A multimillionaire in California is subject to the top tax bracket of 39.6% for the vast majority of his money, and California's state taxes peak at 12-13%. Assuming a minor state credit for federal liability, you're still paying damn near 50%.That's not a misconception. You're just plain wrong.
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Look... I hold a CPA certificate (though not active) I do know a little bit about taxes. You, OTH, are falling into the very misconception I am talking about... confusing the highest marginal rates (taxes paid on last dollars) with effective rates (total tax paid to total income). The common misconception is that you can add one marginal rate to another and say 'see, I am paying half my income in taxes'. Not true!

Effective tax rates are always considerably lower marginal rates (some income is not taxed at all, tax returns have tons of deductions, most passive income is all taxed at 15-20% and the first $300 - 400K of earned income is taxed at lower rates). Multi-millionaires (which is a statement of wealth, not income) typically have a very substantial portion of their income in the form of dividends and cap gains, which is taxed at 15-20%.

One's marginal rate is ALWAYS higher than the effective. Secondly, every dollar paid in state tax is a deduction from federal.... hence, when you talk of a California tax of 13% and a federal marginal tax of 39.6%, even when you are paying last dollars (taxed at the highest rate), every dollar paid to California results in a deduction of federal tax of $.396, hence making the highest California effective rate really more like 8%.

How did you put it? You're just plain wrong.....

OK.... I suppose you could build a scenario, which almost no one would fall into, where a guy in California (maybe an actor) would have 20 -30 million earned income year (wages), but had no assets (hence no passive earnings) and, with his poor planning (the movie was a huge hit and he got all of his cash in one year) his income was so great that first $400-500K of income was insignificant to the denominator of his effective tax rate, his effective rate could be in the mid to upper 40s.... pretty far fetched, but I suppose possible.

The effective tax rates of most income groups is in the high 20 to low 30%

Taxes paid by income group2.jpg[
 
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Bodhisattva said:
Salaries are so bloated and have been for so long that it is the system. People don't go down in salaries and people making money (share holders) and the board are about money... not the workers actually building the company. No person deserves a million dollars a year for their work. No work is that important.
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I'll toss up a challenge to the last 2 sentences, Bodi. Hope all is well!

The CEO of a very large multinational company has an enormous responsibility, and has to answer to the Board, stockholders, hell - even the freaking media.

Why would anyone want to take on that kind of job and not get paid accordingly? $1 million isn't that much money. And good luck getting someone to do that job at the same pay as someone who has almost no responsibility for the massive bottom line.
 
AlabamaPaul said:
Who are you to determine what others should earn?
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What a ridiculous question. Who are you to say that I can't have an opinion and attempt to do something about it?
 
Bodhisattva said:
I would say that they probably do deserve their salaries because the public drives their salary based on performance. It is not the same with businessmen.
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It's exactly the same with businessmen because someone is CHOOSING to pay those businessmen their salaries.

Secondly, what's up with everyone being a Nosy Betty and sticking their noses into what other people are making. No one is taking your money and giving it to Kobe or Tim Cook.
 
Bodhisattva said:
What a ridiculous question. Who are you to say that I can't have an opinion and attempt to do something about it?
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I don't view it as ridiculous at all. What I view as ridiculous is your assertion that no one is worth that level of income. How much, in your world, should someone be "allowed" to earn?
 
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