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The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

Is the CIA patriotic and trustworthy?


  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
Signatories to the Geneva Conventions don't torture. We broke our trust and promoted the evil known as torture. Also Rendition (Kidnapping)
, black sites, etc. Simply speaking "Our word is not Our bond."

It is easy to sign on to something before the **** hits the fan.
 
The CIA is patriotic and trustworthy to a degree. Where that ends and...something else begins....I do not know.

I wouldn't trust them though.
 
It sure did!

Here's a little link on CIA effectiveness of torture.

Senate torture report examines hunt for bin Laden

"Feinstein and other senators have spoken only vaguely of the contents of the classified review.

But they have made references to the divergence between their understanding of how the bin Laden operation came together and assertions of former CIA and Bush administration officials who have defended harsh interrogations.

Responding to former CIA deputy director Jose Rodriguez's argument that Mohammed and al-Libi provided the "lead information" on the bin Laden operation, Feinstein and Levin said, "The original lead information had no connection to CIA detainees."

They rejected former CIA Director Michael Hayden's claim that evidence on the couriers began with interrogations at black sites and Attorney General Michael Mukasey's declaration that intelligence leading to bin Laden began with Mohammed.

The facts, they said, show that the CIA learned of the courier, his true name and location "through means unrelated to the CIA detention and interrogation program." They have cited a "wide variety of intelligence sources and methods."

Terror suspects who were waterboarded "provided no new information about the courier" and offered no indication of where bin Laden was hiding, the senators said.

Feinstein will push to release a summary of the intelligence committee's review later this week, starting a declassification process that could take several months before any documents are made public."
 
"Feinstein and other senators have spoken only vaguely of the contents of the classified review.

But they have made references to the divergence between their understanding of how the bin Laden operation came together and assertions of former CIA and Bush administration officials who have defended harsh interrogations.

And you take Feinstein's vague comments as proof of something. Well, your burden of proof drops dramatically when it's something you want to be true.

Why are you so desperate to believe the US government is a CT organization?
 
What happened on September11, 2001?

The CIA has done some good jobs and it has done some very bad jobs.

It has done some things that it shouldn't have done and it hasn't done some things that it should have done.

Someone should have been held to account for some of the CIA's monumental failures and I don't recall that ever happening.

911 was NOT an invasion.

It was, like what the US has been doing, an attack. No troops came to US shores and started killing civilians.

Your wonderful and loyal CIA completely failed to see that coming, even though it was the SECOND TIME THE SAME PEOPLE attacked. The same CIA that got ARab spring completely wrong and failed to even see the fall of the Berlin Wall....

So, go ahead, let them continue to torture and wreak havoc around the globe, getting it right of course, like they did in Ukraine.
 
And you take Feinstein's vague comments as proof of something. Well, your burden of proof drops dramatically when it's something you want to be true.

Why are you so desperate to believe the US government is a CT organization?

I am not employed by the Federal Gov't, so I don't have to bloviate to justify myself. CT suggests theory, but Libya, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, and Haiti are disquieting facts. They represent active insurrection by the US gov't in foreign affairs for the benefit of USA CORPORATIONS overseas. No wholesome idealism. CORPORATISM! This is what the NWO , New World Order, is about.
 
That's not true. The NWO is about peace, diversity and prosperity.

The NWO is about CORPORATIONS ruling the World.. Big Business. Why do you think we gave the US Treasury to the "Too big to fail" Reserve banks. Was that so we could make jobs at a local level to save the average taxpayer? And, of course the Banks created those jobs. Wrong! More and more fiat paper to back fiat paper and get control of all the natural resources and production facilities before the crap hits the fan, eh? Create an octopus of Reserve Banks, indebt everyone, and control from the TOP, the CORPORATE top, that is. Are there any Reserve Bank shenanigans ongoing in Ukraine. Just watch the birdie. Currency devaluation. Big energy cost increases. Cut state jobs. Cut pensions. Pay interest on Reserve Bank debt. Borrow IMF money to pay Reserve Banks. Pay $3 billion to catch up on gas payments. Oh wait, it's business as usual. Yes, I know that.
 
The NWO is about CORPORATIONS ruling the World.. Big Business.

I know just as much about the NWO as anyone, and you're wrong. It's about charity, trust and development.
 
I know just as much about the NWO as anyone, and you're wrong. It's about charity, trust and development.

"At the center of oligarchy is the idea that certain families are born to rule as an arbitrary elite, while the vast majority of any given population is condemned to oppression, serfdom, or slavery. Oligarchs identify wealth purely in money terms, and practice usury, monetarism, and looting. The oligarchy has believed for millennia that the Earth is overpopulated.
The essence of oligarchism is summed up in the idea of the empire, in which an elite identifying itself as a master race rules over a degraded mass of slaves or other oppressed victims. If oligarchical methods are allowed to dominate human affairs, they always create a breakdown crisis of civilization, with economic depression, war, famine, plague, and pestilence. A pillar of the oligarchical system is the family fortune. The continuity of the family fortune which earns money through usury and looting is often more important than the biological continuity across generations of the family that owns the fortune."

"The Venetian Black Nobility and the Concept of Oligarchy" an article by Dr. Webster Griffin Tarpley & James Higham"
_______________
""During the past two centuries when the peoples of the world were gradually winning their political freedom from the dynastic monarchies, the major banking families of Europe and America were actually reversing the trend by setting up new dynasties of political control through the formation of international financial combines. These banking dynasties had learned that all governments must have sources of revenue from which to borrow in times of emergency. They had also learned that by providing such funds from their own private resources, they could make both kings and democratic leaders tremendously subservient to their will."
Carroll Quigley in his book "Tragedy and Hope"

_________________
""The substantive financial powers of the world were in the hands of investment bankers (also called "international" or "merchant" bankers) who remained largely behind the scenes in their own unincorporated private banks. These formed a system of international cooperation and national dominance which was more private, more powerful, and more secret than that of their agents in the central banks. This dominance of investment bankers was based on their control over the flows of credit and investment funds in their own countries and throughout the world. They could dominate the financial and industrial systems of their own countries by their influence over the flow of current funds through bank loans, the discount rate, and the re-discounting of commercial debts; they could dominate governments by their control over current government loans and the play of the international exchanges. Almost all of this power was exercised by the personal influence and prestige of men who had demonstrated their ability in the past to bring off successful financial coupes to keep their word, to remain cool in a crisis, and to share their winning opportunities with their associates. In this system the Rothschilds had been preeminent during much of the nineteenth century, but, at the end of that century, they were being replaced by J. P. Morgan whose central office was in New York, although it was always operated as if it were in London."
Carroll Quigley, in his book "Tragedy and Hope"
 

Damn it, Dave, all that propaganda doesn't prove anything. The NWO, as orchestrated in some part by the Illuminati, is a force for good. It spreads equality and justice. You're fighting on the dark side, come over to the light.
 
Damn it, Dave, all that propaganda doesn't prove anything. The NWO, as orchestrated in some part by the Illuminati, is a force for good. It spreads equality and justice. You're fighting on the dark side, come over to the light.

You operate under the assumption that if we give lots more money to the already rich and powerful, they will do good things for us. HEHEHEHEHE! The USA just gave the "Too big to fail" Reserve Banks, both foreign and domestic, Trillions of dollars and the results? Jobs? Boom economy? Less poverty? Is it really working?
 
We should all be possed at the CIA. They have dishonored us, as a Nation, repeatedly. Torture, torture and torture. Lies, lies, and more lies. Coverups, obfuscation, and co-ordinated destruction of our Congressional regulatory processes. Geez, Louise (Chuck Butler) gimme a break.

Frankly, if they have their hands on a terrorist, how they obtain information from him is not my primary concern. My concern is that they get information from him. And anybody who thinks torture doesn't work is living in a fantasy land.
 
Frankly, if they have their hands on a terrorist, how they obtain information from him is not my primary concern. My concern is that they get information from him. And anybody who thinks torture doesn't work is living in a fantasy land.

Frankly, if they have their hands on a terrorist,

The bold is the exact nature of the problem. Hundreds of people renditioned and waterboarded and only a handful that were actually terrorists. The biggest word "bolded" is IF...
 
When the size and power of intelligence/security agencies reach a certain level, democracy* becomes a farce. The people can not participate in decision making when too much information is kept secret. That means that we probably have to accept some risk of foreign espionage, crime and terrorism in exchange for democracy, although espionage, crime and terrorism are also threats to democracy when not limited.

*including representational democracy
 
911 was NOT an invasion.

It was, like what the US has been doing, an attack. No troops came to US shores and started killing civilians.

Your wonderful and loyal CIA completely failed to see that coming, even though it was the SECOND TIME THE SAME PEOPLE attacked. The same CIA that got ARab spring completely wrong and failed to even see the fall of the Berlin Wall....

So, go ahead, let them continue to torture and wreak havoc around the globe, getting it right of course, like they did in Ukraine.

Second? lol

Anyway, no organization is going to have a 100% success rate. Why would you assume an organization with significantly large hurdles and difficult competition achieve this?
 
Second? lol

Anyway, no organization is going to have a 100% success rate. Why would you assume an organization with significantly large hurdles and difficult competition achieve this?


Please list the CIA's successes.

The Berlin Wall coming down?

Nope.

The fall of Soviet Russia?

Nope.

The FIRST world trade center bombing?

1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note these names and Al Qaeda:

Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal A. Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj.

The Second World Trade Center bombing?

September 11 attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nope.

Arab Spring?

Nope

Finding Osama Bin Laden


ummmm...only five years.

Libya?

Nope

Egypt?

Nope.

Syria?

Nope

Iraq?

Nope.

Iran?

Nope

Turkey?

Nope

Ukraine?

Nope

Crimea?

Nope

Russia's reaction?

Nope
 
Please list the CIA's successes.

The Berlin Wall coming down?

Nope.

The fall of Soviet Russia?

Nope.

The FIRST world trade center bombing?

1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note these names and Al Qaeda:

Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal A. Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj.

The Second World Trade Center bombing?

September 11 attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nope.

Arab Spring?

Nope

Finding Osama Bin Laden


ummmm...only five years.

Libya?

Nope

Egypt?

Nope.

Syria?

Nope

Iraq?

Nope.

Iran?

Nope

Turkey?

Nope

Ukraine?

Nope

Crimea?

Nope

Russia's reaction?

Nope

Huh? You think CIA successes are publicized? Why would they be?
 
Huh? You think CIA successes are publicized? Why would they be?


I;m never surprised when a gov't paycheck "rationalizes" so they don't feel guilty about taking their paycheck.
You're right. General knowledge of their successes would bring abject shame upon the Agency. For instance, Guatamala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Granada, Libya, Syria(oops), Ukraine, Cuba(oops), Egypt, Chile, Haiti, Iran(oops), Iraq(oops), and th elist goes on.

"Major Joe Blair was the director of instruction at the U.S. School of the Americas (SOA) from 1986 to 1989. He described the training he oversaw at SOA as the following: "The doctrine that was taught was that if you want information you use physical abuse, false imprisonment, threats to family members, and killing. If you can't get the information you want, if you can't get that person to shut up or stop what they're doing, you assassinate them—and you assassinate them with one of your death squads."

The stock response of U.S. officials to the exposure of the systematic crimes I've described is that such things may have occurred at certain times in the past but that they in no way reflect long-term or ongoing U.S. policy. The School of the Americas was moved from the Panama Canal Zone to Fort Benning, Georgia, and replaced by the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC) in 2001. But Joe Blair has something to say about that too. Testifying at a trial of SOA Watch protesters in 2002, he said, "There are no substantive changes besides the name. They teach the identical courses that I taught, and changed the course names and use the same manuals."

A huge amount of human suffering could be alleviated and global problems solved if the United States would make a genuine commitment to human rights and the rule of law, as opposed to one it only applies cynically and opportunistically to its enemies, but never to itself or its allies.

Nicolas J. S. Davies is the author of Blood On Our Hands: The American Invasion and Destruction of Iraq. He wrote the chapter on "Obama At War" for the book, Grading the 44th President: A Report Card on Barack Obama's First Term as a Progressive Leader."
 
Please list the CIA's successes.

As has been noted already, we would not and should not be told of the CIA's successes.

But I'll give you a few in which the CIA played - had to play - a crucial part. The capture of bin Laden, for one. Another one would be JFK's stare-down of the USSR over the missiles in Cuba, since they had to be the ones who told him what the Soviets had and did not have.

When we keep nations like Pakistan from falling apart and radicalizing, the CIA is almost certainly a part of that. When Egypt's American-supported dictator Morsi fell, did Egypt start hating America? No. Almost certainly because of the CIA, we were able to know who to contact within the new regime there in order to keep them on our side. It's the CIA that's letting us know who's the good guys and the bad guys in the protests going on in Thailand, which Chinese bigwigs are angling to improve their standing in the Party, and which South American dictator is being supported by drug lords. And they work with other nations around the world - like Englands MI-5 and Israel's Mossad - to try to advance our nations' different interests.

What the CIA does is for the most part the grunt work that gets the State Department (and other government agencies) the information it needs in order for America's diplomatic efforts to be more effective. The CIA does some things that are very wrong and no mistake - but that's not a symptom of the CIA being a grand failure. Instead, failures by the CIA are much more often instances of failures by the Executive Branch.
 
As has been noted already, we would not and should not be told of the CIA's successes.

But I'll give you a few in which the CIA played - had to play - a crucial part. The capture of bin Laden, for one. Another one would be JFK's stare-down of the USSR over the missiles in Cuba, since they had to be the ones who told him what the Soviets had and did not have.

When we keep nations like Pakistan from falling apart and radicalizing, the CIA is almost certainly a part of that. When Egypt's American-supported dictator Morsi fell, did Egypt start hating America? No. Almost certainly because of the CIA, we were able to know who to contact within the new regime there in order to keep them on our side. It's the CIA that's letting us know who's the good guys and the bad guys in the protests going on in Thailand, which Chinese bigwigs are angling to improve their standing in the Party, and which South American dictator is being supported by drug lords. And they work with other nations around the world - like Englands MI-5 and Israel's Mossad - to try to advance our nations' different interests.

What the CIA does is for the most part the grunt work that gets the State Department (and other government agencies) the information it needs in order for America's diplomatic efforts to be more effective. The CIA does some things that are very wrong and no mistake - but that's not a symptom of the CIA being a grand failure. Instead, failures by the CIA are much more often instances of failures by the Executive Branch.



Right.

The CIA helped Kennedy "stare down the soviet union.'

first, that is in no way accurate and two, does not counter the Bay of Pigs disaster now does it?

For the record, and please do some research, Kennedy lost that stand off.

The Russians moved the missiles into Cuba because Kennedy violated a treaty and installed nukes in Turkey.

The Russian navy was not turned away by the US blockade, but by Kennedy's secret agreement, only declassified years later, to remove the missiles from Turkey.

CIA success are a matter of record, as are their failures. There are oversight committees and mandatory declassification of materials, that's how we learn of their failures.....There are also presidents who brag...

So the claim that successes have to be kept secret is outright bull ****.
 
Right.

The CIA helped Kennedy "stare down the soviet union.'

first, that is in no way accurate and two, does not counter the Bay of Pigs disaster now does it?

For the record, and please do some research, Kennedy lost that stand off.

The Russians moved the missiles into Cuba because Kennedy violated a treaty and installed nukes in Turkey.

The Russian navy was not turned away by the US blockade, but by Kennedy's secret agreement, only declassified years later, to remove the missiles from Turkey.

CIA success are a matter of record, as are their failures. There are oversight committees and mandatory declassification of materials, that's how we learn of their failures.....There are also presidents who brag...

So the claim that successes have to be kept secret is outright bull ****.

Cherry-pick much? And yes, I knew about how we moved our missiles away from Turkey...but without foreknowledge of what the Soviets had and did not have, JFK's bargaining ability would have been significantly less.

And dude...are you really so naive as to think that the congressional oversight committees and "mandatory" declassification will tell you everything they did? Really?
 
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