• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

Is the CIA patriotic and trustworthy?

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
Fearandloathing said:
Love it or leave it?

What specifically can you name that has been soooo successful at keeping America "safe"? How they predicted and prevented the SECOND world trade center bombing by the same guy, different weapons?

Or is it the grand job they did in regime change in Ukraine? Libya? Arab spring?

anything they got right would help.....
Click to expand...

There have been numerous prosecutions of terrorism plots that were prevented or failed. The government works very closely with industry and follows leads generally provided by industry. This includes certain types of inquiring emails and product purchases (particularly chemicals). There are steps taken for questionable sales to provide some level of safeguards.

For example, it was publicized of a person who detonated a 2 part liquid chemical explosive on an airliner (US) that only chemically flashed and did not explode - burning the terrorist and starting a small fire. The passengers jumped the terrorist and the fire put out. It was not inadvertent one of the chemicals was of a lower concentration level than he thought he had bought. A plot to use chemical bombs to blow up a subway station was adverted and the 4 involved arrested and prosecuted - all originating with a suspicious email inquiring of one of the two necessary chemicals - and then following emails, reaching into computers and tracking cell phones documented the plot and learning those involved.

Compared to much of the world, the USA has extremely low incidents of terrorism by explosives. However, it is actually the Dept. of Homeland Security and somewhat FBI that more undertakes such surveillance and investigations, though may use CIA resources.

I do not buy the mantra spouted as fact that the CIA caused the problems in the Ukraine. I believe it was Russia that stirred it up. If we wanted the Ukraine we'd have troops there now. We don't. Russia does.

It is clear that regime change was Obama's thing as was the Arab Spring. Agencies of the government follow directives of the president and basically are his employees and staff.
 
To correct a detail, the subway plot was to blow up a London subway. However, they were seeking information via the Internet from the USA on how to refine a certain chemical. The investigation was a joint effort between the UK and USA and 4 were convicted in the UK.

The government ceased releasing stories of such events as it invites copycats and gives away how to avoid getting caught and/or how to avoid failing if not. My wife's business sold chemicals and was very much involved in such matters. Chemical distributors work very closely with the government. There are many baiting websites that such companies maintain and, so far, the system has worked. My wife's business sold probably THE most popular of 1 of 2 components most easily used and sold at the consumer level (small quantities). Easily refined and combined with something else you can buy in pure form on Ebay? It is exactly 1/3rd the power of nitroglycerine. Very powerful. Simplistic. Mix the 2, shake it and boom.

But (oh the horror!) if one of the plotters had been communicating with you by email or going to a blog you have, they would have read your computer if you go online, checked out your emails and checked who you were having phone communications with.

Free-movement societies and where the people are not desperately poor (meaning enough money to buy components) are very vulnerable and there are a lot of crazy people out there - religious zealots, psychotic, militia types or otherwise very dangerous people who for one reason or another decide to kill a bunch of people. So far, that has been limited to using guns - which are limited in killing ability compared to chemicals and explosives. It is very challenging to prevent that from happening. Just a few ounces of certain chemicals combined would down any airliner and a gallon or two would take out just about any building.

People assume that because nothing happened then no one tried.
 
joko104 said:
I think your ongoing praise in your messages of Russia confirms for me that your view is just racist Stormfront promotions - for which your messages read like some crazed militia member hording firearms and storing up food for the coming racial war you'd like to see in the USA.

You say Russia is the good guy because Putin announced he is going to relocation 100,000 original Tartar Muslims - and you cheer the current and past relocation and murders of non-whites by white Russians. Very despicable.
Click to expand...


Please provide what must be easily verifiable and credible links to substantiate what you have stated. Otherwise, it is same as diarrhea.
 
ecofarm said:
You're just indicting a population based on a few criminals. That's common garbage. Even children should know better.
Click to expand...

The children do know better, it is apparent that adults on this board that support torture are the problem.
 
DaveFagan said:
Please provide what must be easily verifiable and credible links to substantiate what you have stated. Otherwise, it is same as diarrhea.
Click to expand...

Its already been on the forum many times of Putin declaring he was going to relocate Tartar Muslims, calling the "squatters."

For everyone to understand what praises of Russia compared to your cursing the USA is to contrast West Berlin - the American sector - to East Berlin - Russian - and West Germany to East Germany.

Your angry white man militia messages raging about how the government is out to get you and everyone is an example of how dangerous and phobic that people can become when they fixate on paranoia.
 
joko104 said:
There have been numerous prosecutions of terrorism plots that were prevented or failed. The government works very closely with industry and follows leads generally provided by industry. This includes certain types of inquiring emails and product purchases (particularly chemicals). There are steps taken for questionable sales to provide some level of safeguards.

For example, it was publicized of a person who detonated a 2 part liquid chemical explosive on an airliner (US) that only chemically flashed and did not explode - burning the terrorist and starting a small fire. The passengers jumped the terrorist and the fire put out. It was not inadvertent one of the chemicals was of a lower concentration level than he thought he had bought. A plot to use chemical bombs to blow up a subway station was adverted and the 4 involved arrested and prosecuted - all originating with a suspicious email inquiring of one of the two necessary chemicals - and then following emails, reaching into computers and tracking cell phones documented the plot and learning those involved.

Compared to much of the world, the USA has extremely low incidents of terrorism by explosives. However, it is actually the Dept. of Homeland Security and somewhat FBI that more undertakes such surveillance and investigations, though may use CIA resources.

I do not buy the mantra spouted as fact that the CIA caused the problems in the Ukraine. I believe it was Russia that stirred it up. If we wanted the Ukraine we'd have troops there now. We don't. Russia does.

It is clear that regime change was Obama's thing as was the Arab Spring. Agencies of the government follow directives of the president and basically are his employees and staff.
Click to expand...

Another overdose of opinions without links or substantiation pooled up and reflecting in the septic system.
 
joko104 said:
Its already been on the forum many times of Putin declaring he was going to relocate Tartar Muslims, calling the "squatters."

For everyone to understand what praises of Russia compared to your cursing the USA is to contrast West Berlin - the American sector - to East Berlin - Russian - and West Germany to East Germany.

Your angry white man militia messages raging about how the government is out to get you and everyone is an example of how dangerous and phobic that people can become when they fixate on paranoia.
Click to expand...

Not to worry. The CORPORATE NWO will take note of your lack of ability to post links or any verifiable background of your OPINIONS caused by blind patriotism and that is "MY Country, right or wrong." Wrong side of history and morality.
 
DaveFagan said:
The children do know better, it is apparent that adults on this board that support torture are the problem.
Click to expand...

Keep indicting populations based on the act of a few criminals. That way, I don't have to ever worry about debating you - you defeat yourself.
 
ecofarm said:
Keep indicting populations based on the act of a few criminals. That way, I don't have to ever worry about debating you - you defeat yourself.
Click to expand...

You are the one supporting torture.
 
ecofarm said:
I like how we have one guy claiming that the CIA knows and runs everything, and another claiming that the CIA can't tell its ass from a hand grenade.

Classic.
Click to expand...

Politicians typically make the same distinctions: when we haven't been attacked the intelligence community is praised to the moon but when we've been attacked, the knives come out. But it's like that in more departments than just defense. It is a very all-or-nothing profession.
 
DaveFagan said:
You are the one supporting torture.
Click to expand...

I don't know if he is or not, but if he is, so what?

Torture has been a common element to warfare since man started fighting each other. Sure, it is an unpleasant thought and a worse reality, but what part of war IS pleasant? Every aspect of War I am aware of is ugly and brutish. Why? Because War is an abomination. However, I do recognize the need for War. War, is as many say, the last resort. They say that because of how horrible it is but also with the recognition that at some point, people have to engage in hostilities with one another for some reason. And what happens when men engage other men in battle? One side tries to win and men die. And when it is a kill-or-be-killed situation, which it is in War, then it is better to be judged by twelve than be carried by six. And it's that way because loss or failure could result with the annihilation of your people and most certainly your life. So, men engaged in warfare with other men, in the interest of self-preservatoin and your people winning the war, the employment of certain methods can gain information vital to their cause and detrimental to their enemies. What generally happens when one side receives intelligence vital to their effort is lives are saved and an advantage over the enemy is gained which could result in the loss or failure of said enemy. So while torture is despicable, it is a necessary tactic men use to win battles and stay alive.
 
DaveFagan said:
You are the one supporting torture.
Click to expand...

Ticking time bomb, known terrorists at the top of the organization that attacked the US, verifiable info - not confessions. Yes, I support that.
 
DaveFagan said:
The children do know better, it is apparent that adults on this board that support torture are the problem.
Click to expand...

Your praises of the USSR and Russia means no one on this forum more supports torture and on an industrial scale than you.
 
DaveFagan said:
Bullcrap! They've protected us from Honduras, Guatamala, El Salvador, Haiti, Granada, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba and Venezuela. Right. Hot damn, but the perceived threat must be awesome. All that killing and all those drugs. Invasion and media generated hypothethical threats are made to generate business for the Military Offens Industry. Corporate welfare at its' finest.
Click to expand...

So you ask for opinions and become obstinate when somebody has a different one?

Note to self never talk to you again.
 
Jango said:
I don't know if he is or not, but if he is, so what?

Torture has been a common element to warfare since man started fighting each other. Sure, it is an unpleasant thought and a worse reality, but what part of war IS pleasant? Every aspect of War I am aware of is ugly and brutish. Why? Because War is an abomination. However, I do recognize the need for War. War, is as many say, the last resort. They say that because of how horrible it is but also with the recognition that at some point, people have to engage in hostilities with one another for some reason. And what happens when men engage other men in battle? One side tries to win and men die. And when it is a kill-or-be-killed situation, which it is in War, then it is better to be judged by twelve than be carried by six. And it's that way because loss or failure could result with the annihilation of your people and most certainly your life. So, men engaged in warfare with other men, in the interest of self-preservatoin and your people winning the war, the employment of certain methods can gain information vital to their cause and detrimental to their enemies. What generally happens when one side receives intelligence vital to their effort is lives are saved and an advantage over the enemy is gained which could result in the loss or failure of said enemy. So while torture is despicable, it is a necessary tactic men use to win battles and stay alive.
Click to expand...

Signatories to the Geneva Conventions don't torture. We broke our trust and promoted the evil known as torture. Also Rendition (Kidnapping)
, black sites, etc. Simply speaking "Our word is not Our bond."
 
ecofarm said:
Ticking time bomb, known terrorists at the top of the organization that attacked the US, verifiable info - not confessions. Yes, I support that.
Click to expand...


That sounds just ducky. Then there would be absolutely no reason not to release the 6300 pages of Congressional info. It is because they did not limit the torture to the individuals that you have identified or suggested. Thay seem to have an accuracy of about 1 in 100 at identifying teerrorists and cannot document saving even one life with torture.
 
joko104 said:
Your praises of the USSR and Russia means no one on this forum more supports torture and on an industrial scale than you.
Click to expand...

If one knows nothing when they go to bed, thet know nothing when they awaken. Where are you links. You have once again implied that filaments of your imagination are grounded in facts and reality. Links please.
 
CLAX1911 said:
So you ask for opinions and become obstinate when somebody has a different one?

Note to self never talk to you again.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! Torture is wrong and illegal. Hiding the truth from the American citizens is wrong and should be illegal. If you support torture and deception, that is certatinly your right, but I will verbally abuse that position.
 
joko104 said:
The USA has not been invaded. The CIA has done a good job.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...




What happened on September11, 2001?

The CIA has done some good jobs and it has done some very bad jobs.

It has done some things that it shouldn't have done and it hasn't done some things that it should have done.

Someone should have been held to account for some of the CIA's monumental failures and I don't recall that ever happening.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom