• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?[W:78]

Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote?

  • Yes, the U.S. should

    Votes: 18 40.0%

  • No, the U.S. shouldn't

    Votes: 27 60.0%
  • Total voters
    45
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

DaveFagan said:
Ukraine doesn't need Crimea. They already have Chernobyl. It will become the West's dumping ground for highly radioactive waste iin the very near future. Corporate agenda? NO, the people want it.
Click to expand...

And how exactly will the waste get there?

Please, tell me the nations that will allow radioactive waste to be shipped across their borders into Ukraine who isn't planning on building a depository of waste. I'd love to see this.

And yes, Ukraine needs Crimea. Look up the hydrocarbon assets within the territorial waters off Crimea.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

DaveFagan said:
Ukraine doesn't need Crimea. They already have Chernobyl. It will become the West's dumping ground for highly radioactive waste iin the very near future. Corporate agenda? NO, the people want it.
Click to expand...

You do realize this makes no sense and in no way addresses my points, right?
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Bigfoot 88 said:
The U.S. has already said it will not, but do you think it should?

The only concern is people might feel intimidated, but I honestly doubt that is the case.

If the U.S. supports democracy, it should recognize this vote. Granted, the U.S. government doesn't exactly have a positive view of secession I would imagine...

I support recognizing the vote. If they vote to join Russia, let them. If not, then we have to figure out what is next. I think that would lend us the moral authority to force Russia to back off.
Click to expand...

We should support the democratic process. We do not look so good advocating this process elsewhere, then turn around and aid and abet violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government in Kiev, Ukraine, and again snub our noses at an election by people in Crimea to decide for themselves what they want.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

SayMyName said:
We should support the democratic process. We do not look so good advocating this process elsewhere, then turn around and aid and abet violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government in Kiev, Ukraine, and again snub our noses at an election by people in Crimea to decide for themselves what they want.
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is you favor military invasion and conquest of other counties - and then having the country under military conquest and occupation calling for an election for which they people under military oppression by a foreign invader are given the choice of voting to denounce their country and withdrawn from it OR denounce their country and withdraw from it?

That's makes you the most pro-war-hawk and pro-military imperialism possible. Any countries you recommend the USA invade and force them to vote to be Americans?
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

joko104 said:
So what you are saying is you favor military invasion and conquest of other counties - and then having the country under military conquest and occupation calling for an election for which they people under military oppression by a foreign invader are given the choice of voting to denounce their country and withdrawn from it OR denounce their country and withdraw from it?

That's makes you the most pro-war-hawk and pro-military imperialism possible. Any countries you recommend the USA invade and force them to vote to be Americans?
Click to expand...

I do not see how you drew that conclusion at all. I support the democratic process wherever it takes place. Crimea voted yesterday, and that vote should be supported. The United States is as of late giving only lip service to supporting the democratic process, even giving aid and comfort to violent uprising against the legitimately elected government in Kiev, Ukraine.

The United States government is in no position to say what is legitimate and what is not. It has acted very much as the world's leading aggressor in the last couple of decades. I do not support this as an American.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

If its something that UN advisors would be happy with, than sure. If not, than no.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Bigfoot 88 said:
The U.S. has already said it will not, but do you think it should?

The only concern is people might feel intimidated, but I honestly doubt that is the case.

If the U.S. supports democracy, it should recognize this vote. Granted, the U.S. government doesn't exactly have a positive view of secession I would imagine...

I support recognizing the vote. If they vote to join Russia, let them. If not, then we have to figure out what is next. I think that would lend us the moral authority to force Russia to back off.
Click to expand...

Would the US recognize a vote from Maine to join Canada? At least their position regarding the Crimean vote is consistent with how they would view the same situation here at home.

Whether or not this is the correct position for either situation is very debatable, but it is a consistent position and not a hypocritical one (recognizing the Crimean vote - even if legitimate - would be hypocritical).
 
Last edited:
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

ecofarm said:
Secession does not work when there are specialized states utilizing comparative advantage. What if, for example, Florida wanted to secede and take NASA with it? What if Alaska wanted to secede and take it's oil reserves with it.

Those states were developed with the help of the rest of the nation and they would not have what they do were it not for the rest of the country. For them to "take their ball and go home", when others bought the ball, is not legit.
Click to expand...

Thats not really Floridas problem. The land belongs to Florida, not the US govt. We would have to work out some deal for them to haul their stuff away, most likely (minus the portion Florida paid for). Same goes for any other property, military bases, roads, govt buildings. An equitable distribution. Same as any dissolution of union.

Regarding the topic, I dont see how recognition of Crimea or not means anything. Their independence is not our responsibility. IF they want to be independant, they should make it happen on their own.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Wiseone said:
If people are being compelled under threat of force to vote a certain way, and there's no monitoring to ensure the vote is done without tampering than its not a real democratic choice.
Click to expand...

Guess we should discount the last US election then, eh? Voter fraud is rife in many districts, both red and blue, the Southern states regularly try to de-incentivize blacks from voting, and Texas (3rd-world ****hole that it is) tried to bar EU vote monitors from entering.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

jonny5 said:
Thats not really Floridas problem. The land belongs to Florida, not the US govt. We would have to work out some deal for them to haul their stuff away, most likely (minus the portion Florida paid for). Same goes for any other property, military bases, roads, govt buildings. An equitable distribution. Same as any dissolution of union.

Regarding the topic, I dont see how recognition of Crimea or not means anything. Their independence is not our responsibility. IF they want to be independant, they should make it happen on their own.
Click to expand...


Your first sentence seems to recognize some of the difficulty. Then your second sentence ignores it. It's like you have a split personality.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

The US and the rest of the world should assure the Crimeon people that we will respect and even protect their decision.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

SayMyName said:
I do not see how you drew that conclusion at all. I support the democratic process wherever it takes place. Crimea voted yesterday, and that vote should be supported. The United States is as of late giving only lip service to supporting the democratic process, even giving aid and comfort to violent uprising against the legitimately elected government in Kiev, Ukraine.

The United States government is in no position to say what is legitimate and what is not. It has acted very much as the world's leading aggressor in the last couple of decades. I do not support this as an American.
Click to expand...

This is what you "support."

1. The genocide and deportation of non-Russian Crimeans by Joseph Stalin.

2. Elections held by a foreign conquering military of a foreign country.

3. An election for which there are 2 options - both identical - either secede from Ukraine or secede from Ukraine.

Don't pretend you like democracy. What you support is gaining the fruits of genocide and military invasions.

But its not like Sweden has not always supported genocide and the elimination of democracy or freedom.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Kreton said:
The US and the rest of the world should assure the Crimeon people that we will respect and even protect their decision.
Click to expand...

Perfect satire.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

ecofarm said:
Your first sentence seems to recognize some of the difficulty. Then your second sentence ignores it. It's like you have a split personality.
Click to expand...

It makes perfect sense. People have a right to be free. Petty things like bought the couch are irrelevant. The point as it relates to Crimea is that its up to them. The US has nothing to do with it. They need to decide whats best for them and then fight for it.
 
Last edited:
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

jonny5 said:
It makes perfect sense. People have a right to be free. Petty things like bought the couch are irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Ukraine's most strategically important land and most developed industrial area are hardly a sofa.

And let's not forget that Ukraine is a democracy.

Look, I don't advocate military action. I'm just saying let's look at this objectively.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

ecofarm said:
Ukraine's most strategically important land and most developed industrial area are hardly a sofa.

And let's not forget that Ukraine is a democracy.

Look, I don't advocate military action. I'm just saying let's look at this objectively.
Click to expand...

I was simply disputing your comment about seccesion not being legit, because some other person has a perceived claim on some property. The right to self determination trumps that. If the individuals in Crimea wish to no longer be governed by Ukraine, that is their right, and reasonable people can some to some sort of solution on previously shared resources without just saying No! you are not allowed!
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Bigfoot 88 said:
The U.S. has already said it will not, but do you think it should?

The only concern is people might feel intimidated, but I honestly doubt that is the case.

If the U.S. supports democracy, it should recognize this vote. Granted, the U.S. government doesn't exactly have a positive view of secession I would imagine...

I support recognizing the vote. If they vote to join Russia, let them. If not, then we have to figure out what is next. I think that would lend us the moral authority to force Russia to back off.
Click to expand...

I do not think it will matters what we recognize or don't recognize.The people of that area view themselves as Russians now.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Wiseone said:
Well a few points.

1) The Russians would never allow outside observers into the Crimea to watch over the election, it simply cannot be negotiated for.
2) Democracy isn't everything, just because someone is democratically elected doesn't give him free reign to do whatever he wants. The last leader of Ukraine was a man who murdered his people in the streets and stole the wealth of the country for his personal bank accounts and those of his personally connected cadre. He ran the country as a place meant to generate wealth for him and his family, one of the reasons the protests started in the first place, then he fled the country and claims to govern from outside its borders. So democratically elected or not, when you behave like that you aren't legitimate.
Click to expand...

Russia did invite outside observers but they all refused because they said the election was illegal.
 
Last edited:
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Moot said:
Russia did invite outside observers but they all refused because they said the election wal illegal. Guess which side they were on?
Click to expand...

Actually no Russia did not invite outside observers, Russia's official stance is that there are no Russian forces in Crimea outside of those in their military bases and all of this is being done by the Crimean people themselves totally unrelated to Russia at all. It would destroy that narrative if they were to invite observers into the Crimea as it would mean Russia was in control of the election.

What actually happened was that Crimea itself, the Parliament and Russian puppet of a "Prime Minister" invited observers from the OSCE, an international body made up of nations from North America, Europe, Russia and the Central Asian sates. OSCE said that it did not recognize Crimean independence and Crimea was not a member of OSCE anyway therefore it had no authority to invite observers into what the OSCE considers another nation's territory, ie Ukraine.

RPT UPDATE 1-Crimea invites OSCE observers for referendum on joining Russia | Reuters
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Capster78 said:
If we recognize the vote to succeed from the Ukraine, it will give the green light to any country to simply peacefully invade another country with it's citizens. Could you imagine if the citizens of some of the souther states of the US voted to succeed to Mexico? And if they did, would we be outraged, or would we simply succeed our land?
Click to expand...


A more realistic analogy would be Scottlands vote for seccession from Britain. The Scots wil be voting on a referendum very similar to the one in Crimea in six months. If..if Scottland secceeds, should the US recognize it as a legal election and Scottland as an independent country?
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Wiseone said:
Actually no Russia did not invite outside observers, Russia's official stance is that there are no Russian forces in Crimea outside of those in their military bases and all of this is being done by the Crimean people themselves totally unrelated to Russia at all. It would destroy that narrative if they were to invite observers into the Crimea as it would mean Russia was in control of the election.
Click to expand...
Your link below says that Crimea parliment did invite outside observers. Why would they do that if they didn't want outsiders to see the election? Russia also invited far right nationalists from EU to observe the election as well.

EU Observer: Russia invites EU far-right to observe Crimea vote


What actually happened was that Crimea itself, the Parliament and Russian puppet of a "Prime Minister" invited observers from the OSCE, an international body made up of nations from North America, Europe, Russia and the Central Asian sates. OSCE said that it did not recognize Crimean independence and Crimea was not a member of OSCE anyway therefore it had no authority to invite observers into what the OSCE considers another nation's territory, ie Ukraine.

RPT UPDATE 1-Crimea invites OSCE observers for referendum on joining Russia | Reuters
Click to expand...
I understand what you're saying. But why didn't OSCE accept the puppet "prime minister" invitation, since techically he is or was the prime minister of Ukraine, a recognized member of OSCE?
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Moot said:
Your link below says that Crimea parliment did invite outside observers. Why would they do that if they didn't want outsiders to see the election? Russia also invited far right nationalists from EU to observe the election as well.

EU Observer: Russia invites EU far-right to observe Crimea vote


I understand what you're saying. But why didn't OSCE accept the puppet "prime minister" invitation, since techically he is or was the prime minister of Ukraine, a recognized member of OSCE?
Click to expand...

I'm talking about the Prime Minister of Crimea, the guy the Russians installed in Crimea, not the Prime Minister of Ukraine. And I thought when you said observers that you meant folks like the OSCE which is an organization with experience and a mission to observe elections, not a random hodge podge of far right nationalist parties from across Europe.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Bigfoot 88 said:
Are they really?

The U.S. should have negotiated to get involved with the vote to make sure it met their standards.

I think it will be legitimate and Crimea will vote to secede because of their demographics and political leanings.

Interestingly, the U.S. did not support democracy when the Ukrainians deposed of their elected leader.
Click to expand...

The Ukranians did not vote to depose their elected leader, however. So that was not democracy in the sense that it was the choice of the people to do. If President Obama was impeached and removed from office, it would be by a legal Constitutional process, but it would not necessarily be the choice of the people.

Unless the people were required to vote to secede from Ukraine and join with Russia, their vote should be their business. And if Ukraine decided to force Crimea to stay with Ukraine, well we sort of have that same history.

I am having a bit of a problem coming up with a rationale of why it is our business if Russia did not take the country by force, however.
 
Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

Wiseone said:
I'm talking about the Prime Minister of Crimea, the guy the Russians installed in Crimea, not the Prime Minister of Ukraine. And I thought when you said observers that you meant folks like the OSCE which is an organization with experience and a mission to observe elections, not a random hodge podge of far right nationalist parties from across Europe.
Click to expand...

There's so many puppets it gets a bit confusing. lol Okay, first you say that Russia didn't invite any outside observers and but wait, they did...but...it was their puppet Crimea prime minsiter that invited OSCE, so that doesn't count. Whether or not the outside observers refused is irrelevant because the point is, Russia did invite outside observers, right?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom