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Is Putin "in another world"

Is Putin "in another world" as Angela Merkel of Germany claims?

  • yes: he thinks he is Peter the Great -clearly delusional

    Votes: 3 10.0%

  • yes; thinks he can play with the world without real consequences

    Votes: 5 16.7%

  • no: he is playing 'realpolitik' ; thoughtful gambits

    Votes: 17 56.7%

  • no: he does what he wants, without any consequences

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • Total voters
    30
annata said:
The Russian occupation of Crimea has challenged Mr. Obama as has no other international crisis, and at its heart, the advice seemed to pose the same question: Is Mr. Obama tough enough to take on the former K.G.B. colonel in the Kremlin? It is no easy task
. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said.
“In another world,” she said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/w...ks-to-rein-in-russia.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0
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Germany and Frau Merkel are the ones that should run a reality chrck. That woman runs one of the countries most dependent on foreign trade in the world and acts as though international security were a free good. Why that country can barely put 9.000 troops in the field and is struggling valiantly to raise that number to 12.000 in a few years. The population believes that the EU has guaranteed peace since WWII. She is very good at the game of domestic power politics. But internationally that country is a loose cannon.
 
MMC said:
I don't think any in the West saw it coming.....how does this change what they viewed now these past days with conflicting Messages being put out by the US?

Do you think that our allies seeing we were blindsided would talk with their people and mention that since such happened. This is what needs to be done?
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Unless I am missing something awfully important, Obama's people are nothing to be proud of.
 
Manc Skipper said:
There's no question that the entire West was blindsided The US and its President included. Who might these "allies" be, who presumably saw it coming but said nothing?
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If someone was following what was happening, they should have understood the fears in Eastern Ukraine and the anger in Russia at the EU's treaty proposal. And having watched the ruthlessness Putin showed in Syria and remembering the game he played in Georgia a professional that didn't see this or something very close to it coming should be fired.
This brings us to the question, what made the Europeans act as they did.
 
joG said:
If someone was following what was happening, they should have understood the fears in Eastern Ukraine and the anger in Russia at the EU's treaty proposal. And having watched the ruthlessness Putin showed in Syria and remembering the game he played in Georgia a professional that didn't see this or something very close to it coming should be fired.
This brings us to the question, what made the Europeans act as they did.
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Invasion is a tool of desperation only used when other methods of persuasion has failed.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Invasion is a tool of desperation only used when other methods of persuasion has failed.
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It seems he persuaded a large part of the population in Eastern Ukraine. That is doing okay for his purposes . They will return to the fold. And the West? He doesn't seem interested in invasion to me. In effect the EU and Russia have carved up the country between them.
 
MMC said:
Mornin' AT.....Yeah they will have a port there too. Now The the Senate Whip and Obama's yes man. Dick Durbin wants Congress to Condemn Putin. WTF!

Durbin: U.S. needs to ‘draw a line’

International pressure on Russia mounted as leaders from the EU and the UK joined an international outcry over the escalation of violence in the region. On the domestic front, Durbin and Graham said that there are actions Congress can take to show Putin his use of military force is unacceptable.

“We’ve got to make it clear to Putin that if there are Russian-speaking people on the soil of another nation, that doesn’t give him license to invade, to protect them when there is no obvious threat against them,” Durbin said. “What Congress has to do, what the Senate has to do quickly is a resolution condemning what Putin has done.”

The Illinois Democrat said that Russia’s “charm offensive,” dumping billions of dollars into the 2014 Winter Olympics held in Sochi, has done little to redefine the nation’s image among Western nations.

“That Sochi charm offensive died on the streets of Sevastopol (Ukraine) when he moved in thousands of troops days after the closing ceremony. He is trying to have it both ways,” Durbin said. “We’ve got to make him feel like there is a price to pay for this kind of conduct.”

Graham said the U.S. needs to make clear to countries surrounding Russia its resolve to take action against Putin and accelerate the admission of neighboring countries, like Georgia and Moldova, into NATO.....snip~

Durbin calls for suspension of Russia, swift action against Putin | WQAD.com
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Do we always have to look like we are trying to play "catch up?" IMO, someone should muzzle Durbin, who is allowing emotion to over-rule logic in his thinking. What has happened is now history, and the people in Crimea are predominantly Russian, and apparently satisfied with what has happened. We used to be preeminent in the world, but my main fear now is that others may now become emboldened to try something, since we now look weak! Talking tough probably won't help matters at this point, but I understand why some might feel it's our best choice now. We'll see what takes place next, since the world is watching.

I wonder how this ties in with the plan that some big players on the world stage have to replace the dollar with a new currency for international trade? :eek:
 
polgara said:
Do we always have to look like we are trying to play "catch up?" IMO, someone should muzzle Durbin, who is allowing emotion to over-rule logic in his thinking. What has happened is now history, and the people in Crimea are predominantly Russian, and apparently satisfied with what has happened. We used to be preeminent in the world, but my main fear now is that others may now become emboldened to try something, since we now look weak! Talking tough probably won't help matters at this point, but I understand why some might feel it's our best choice now. We'll see what takes place next, since the world is watching.

I wonder how this ties in with the plan that some big players on the world stage have to replace the dollar with a new currency for international trade? :eek:
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I think I mentioned before.....that Russia and China have already been trading with each other bypassing using American dollars.
 
MMC said:
I think I mentioned before.....that Russia and China have already been trading with each other bypassing using American dollars.
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There are more biggies joining them, too, unfortunately. :eek: Have we been that unfair to others, that this is even happening? Or is it just jealousy that we still have what amounts to a monopoly? I wonder....
 
annata said:
The Russian occupation of Crimea has challenged Mr. Obama as has no other international crisis, and at its heart, the advice seemed to pose the same question: Is Mr. Obama tough enough to take on the former K.G.B. colonel in the Kremlin? It is no easy task
. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said.
“In another world,” she said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/w...ks-to-rein-in-russia.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0
Click to expand...

I picked the second option because I think he is very arrogant and he does believe the world is his playground, or at least that's how he comes across, and then with this latest incident . . . I almost chose the first option, but I don't know him well enough to say he is delusional.
 
annata said:
The Russian occupation of Crimea has challenged Mr. Obama as has no other international crisis, and at its heart, the advice seemed to pose the same question: Is Mr. Obama tough enough to take on the former K.G.B. colonel in the Kremlin? It is no easy task
. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said.
“In another world,” she said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/w...ks-to-rein-in-russia.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0
Click to expand...

Putin see's Russia's interests in a different light than the West see's it in theirs. We harp on about Democracy and capitalism, when he's trying to protect Russian economics- energy interests, strategic borders and a Russian speaking people of a Ukraine province.

I'm sure his explanations of his countries concerns, sound very foreign and alien to an arrogant and idealistic West that meddles in every possible conflict on the globe.
 
polgara said:
There are more biggies joining them, too, unfortunately. :eek: Have we been that unfair to others, that this is even happening? Or is it just jealousy that we still have what amounts to a monopoly? I wonder....
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Its a mute point now Lady P.....Russia just gave the Ukraine until 5 am to Surrender. I have it up in the Ukraine Crisis Thread.
 
MMC said:
Its a mute point now Lady P.....Russia just gave the Ukraine until 5 am to Surrender. I have it up in the Ukraine Crisis Thread.
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I confess I am a little confused here. Is it the entire Ukraine or just the Crimea portion? Ukraine in area is huge! Would it be similar to Putin taking the Southern portion of the US, but the rest of the country is not involved? It sure would be uncomfortable for those not directly affected!
 
polgara said:
I confess I am a little confused here. Is it the entire Ukraine or just the Crimea portion? Ukraine in area is huge! Would it be similar to Putin taking the Southern portion of the US, but the rest of the country is not involved? It sure would be uncomfortable for those not directly affected!
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He already has the Crimea under control.....this is the Ukriane proper. He is Telling the Ukrainian Forces in the Crimea. Their Military.
 
polgara said:
I confess I am a little confused here. Is it the entire Ukraine or just the Crimea portion? Ukraine in area is huge! Would it be similar to Putin taking the Southern portion of the US, but the rest of the country is not involved? It sure would be uncomfortable for those not directly affected!
Click to expand...

I'm parroting what I heard this morning --- but basically the heart of Ukraine is in the East. Control that and the rest of Ukraine is irrelevant. I haven't had time nor inclination to verify it. :shrug:
 
Ockham said:
I'm parroting what I heard this morning --- but basically the heart of Ukraine is in the East. Control that and the rest of Ukraine is irrelevant. I haven't had time nor inclination to verify it. :shrug:
Click to expand...

The interesting thing is that he is proceeding full bore ahead, in spite of what the rest of the world thinks! He's awfully confident that he will prevail, isn't he? Or is it a bluff, since no one is challenging him, except in rhetoric? Have you heard what side the UN is taking?

Greetings, Ockham. :2wave:
 
MMC said:
Mornin' AT.....Yeah they will have a port there too. Now The the Senate Whip and Obama's yes man. Dick Durbin wants Congress to Condemn Putin. WTF!

Durbin: U.S. needs to ‘draw a line’

International pressure on Russia mounted as leaders from the EU and the UK joined an international outcry over the escalation of violence in the region. On the domestic front, Durbin and Graham said that there are actions Congress can take to show Putin his use of military force is unacceptable.

“We’ve got to make it clear to Putin that if there are Russian-speaking people on the soil of another nation, that doesn’t give him license to invade, to protect them when there is no obvious threat against them,” Durbin said. “What Congress has to do, what the Senate has to do quickly is a resolution condemning what Putin has done.”

The Illinois Democrat said that Russia’s “charm offensive,” dumping billions of dollars into the 2014 Winter Olympics held in Sochi, has done little to redefine the nation’s image among Western nations.

“That Sochi charm offensive died on the streets of Sevastopol (Ukraine) when he moved in thousands of troops days after the closing ceremony. He is trying to have it both ways,” Durbin said. “We’ve got to make him feel like there is a price to pay for this kind of conduct.”

Graham said the U.S. needs to make clear to countries surrounding Russia its resolve to take action against Putin and accelerate the admission of neighboring countries, like Georgia and Moldova, into NATO.....snip~

Durbin calls for suspension of Russia, swift action against Putin | WQAD.com
Click to expand...

This is the big reason we need to be THE arms dealer to the world. We should be the second leading cause of death indirectly, and the leading cause of unnatural death indirectly, in the world. If a maniac anywhere wields a weapon it should have "Proudly made in the USA" stamped on the side. If we were Puti Poo wouldn't be pulling this crap because the Ukrainians would be armed to the teeth literally with US made military hardware guaranteed to ruin any Russian former KGB colonels day. Like the advertisement in the 1800"s went for the "Colt Peacemaker", "God made men, Sam Colt made em equal.":peace
 
polgara said:
The interesting thing is that he is proceeding full bore ahead, in spite of what the rest of the world thinks! He's awfully confident that he will prevail, isn't he? Or is it a bluff, since no one is challenging him, except in rhetoric? Have you heard what side the UN is taking?

Greetings, Ockham. :2wave:
Click to expand...

:2wave:

I think he had this planned for a while - he knew the US had no stomach for a military conflict nor would we respond to even a threat given the last decade of Iraq and Afghanistan. He also correctly gauged our WH and administration to not put much of a blockade. He timed it such that it was right after Sochi Olympics. I'm not as dialed in with how the EU is handling it or what their take on this is, but I gather the EU is not particularly offended since Ukraine was a former USSR block state. I haven't seen much from the UN yet but then again I haven't looked either. This really seems to be one of those "no one is going to stop you" though we may try and issue economic sanctions. I don't have much faith in the UN or NATO for that matter.
 
Ockham said:
:2wave:

I think he had this planned for a while - he knew the US had no stomach for a military conflict nor would we respond to even a threat given the last decade of Iraq and Afghanistan. He also correctly gauged our WH and administration to not put much of a blockade. He timed it such that it was right after Sochi Olympics. I'm not as dialed in with how the EU is handling it or what their take on this is, but I gather the EU is not particularly offended since Ukraine was a former USSR block state. I haven't seen much from the UN yet but then again I haven't looked either. This really seems to be one of those "no one is going to stop you" though we may try and issue economic sanctions. I don't have much faith in the UN or NATO for that matter.
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The EU is dependent upon the oil and gas he provides, so they aren't going to complain too loud. The UN isn't going to complain much either, since Russia is one of the "Big 5" in the UN. One can only hope that the Ukrainian people aren't treated too badly, since they didn't have much say in what their government does. Sounds a lot like us, doesn't it? :scared:
 
polgara said:
Good morning, MMC. :2wave:

I just don't like the appearance that America was blindsided by a very well thought out move by Putin, and we are now flailing around again trying to find a way out. That's not how it should be, but that's the way it looks to the rest of the world! :2mad:
Click to expand...

Your post presupposes that the USA had nothing to do with the insurrection. Victoria Nuland's statement from January that "Yats" would be put in charge would most certainly indicate subversive USA/CIA intrigue underlying the "protestor" insurrection. Nuland also admitted the USA spent $5 billion in Ukraine. Show me the receipts where this money was spent. In the meantime I shall assume it was spent establishing NGOs, staffing, transportation, and logistices to organize and move personnel to become identified as "protestors" by the Mighty Wurlitzer. No Western Media asks what the $5 billion is/was spent doing or/and if it helped Ukrianian citizens directly. That is known as framing the news and not censoring/adjusting the News. That's what we get in the USA. This scenario needs objective reporting of real news, not political statements nor Intelligence Agency controlling the framing and twisted news to support their ulterior agenda. The way I perceive this is that Putin is the good guy in these events and reacting conservatively to chaos and a power vacuum created by yours truly. Russia needs/requires a stable Ukraine. Keep the mind flexible to perceive that possibility.
 
Ockham said:
:2wave:

I think he had this planned for a while - he knew the US had no stomach for a military conflict nor would we respond to even a threat given the last decade of Iraq and Afghanistan. He also correctly gauged our WH and administration to not put much of a blockade. He timed it such that it was right after Sochi Olympics. I'm not as dialed in with how the EU is handling it or what their take on this is, but I gather the EU is not particularly offended since Ukraine was a former USSR block state. I haven't seen much from the UN yet but then again I haven't looked either. This really seems to be one of those "no one is going to stop you" though we may try and issue economic sanctions. I don't have much faith in the UN or NATO for that matter.
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I don't think Putin is that brilliant because he is in the process of turning the Ukraine into another Chechnya.
 
This issue of Crimea and the Ukraine are only footnotes to what the real issues is. Nuclear proliferation.

Do all the little maniac leaders around the world get nuclear weapons or not? If Russia ends up annexing Crimea or creating it as an "independent country," there is no deal to ever be made to prevent any country gaining nuclear weapons in the future - and all have compelling reasons to do so.

A deal was made with the Ukraine that if they gave up their nuclear weapons we would protect the integrity of their borders. They gave up their nuclear weapons as their part of the deal. Now? Russia has laughed at the Ukraine, invades and taken apart of their country. Our response is basically to tell the Ukraine that we were also part of that trickery.

The world message being sent is very clear. Iran, N. Korea and nearly every other country in the world should make obtaining nuclear weapons their highest priority. Otherwise they face military conquest. Any treaty or agreement about nuclear weapons is, in reality, worthless to them. We are now proving that.
 
DaveFagan said:
Your post presupposes that the USA had nothing to do with the insurrection. Victoria Nuland's statement from January that "Yats" would be put in charge would most certainly indicate subversive USA/CIA intrigue underlying the "protestor" insurrection. Nuland also admitted the USA spent $5 billion in Ukraine. Show me the receipts where this money was spent. In the meantime I shall assume it was spent establishing NGOs, staffing, transportation, and logistices to organize and move personnel to become identified as "protestors" by the Mighty Wurlitzer. No Western Media asks what the $5 billion is/was spent doing or/and if it helped Ukrianian citizens directly. That is known as framing the news and not censoring/adjusting the News. That's what we get in the USA. This scenario needs objective reporting of real news, not political statements nor Intelligence Agency controlling the framing and twisted news to support their ulterior agenda. The way I perceive this is that Putin is the good guy in these events and reacting conservatively to chaos and a power vacuum created by yours truly. Russia needs/requires a stable Ukraine. Keep the mind flexible to perceive that possibility.
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:Agree: :thumbs: With all the problems this country is facing...92 million unemployed or under-employed; skyrocketing food stamp usage so people can eat; infrastructure crumbling; a national debt in excess of $ 17 trillion and climbing as we speak; and general unhappiness with the ACA and the way DC operates, why do we somehow manage to find the money to give to countries who hate us--but love our money? Why are our problems either ignored or put on hold till some future date?

You did notice that we are being asked to send billions to "help the people of Ukraine," didn't you? If we do same, I wonder how much of that money the average person over there will ever see? Meh!!!
 
joko104 said:
This issue of Crimea and the Ukraine are only footnotes to what the real issues is. Nuclear proliferation.

Do all the little maniac leaders around the world get nuclear weapons or not? If Russia ends up annexing Crimea or creating it as an "independent country," there is no deal to ever be made to prevent any country gaining nuclear weapons in the future - and all have compelling reasons to do so.

A deal was made with the Ukraine that if they gave up their nuclear weapons we would protect the integrity of their borders. They gave up their nuclear weapons as their part of the deal. Now? Russia has laughed at the Ukraine, invades and taken apart of their country. Our response is basically to tell the Ukraine that we were also part of that trickery.

The world message being sent is very clear. Iran, N. Korea and nearly every other country in the world should make obtaining nuclear weapons their highest priority. Otherwise they face military conquest. Any treaty or agreement about nuclear weapons is, in reality, worthless to them. We are now proving that.
Click to expand...

I don't think Putin is doing anything smart if he is resorting to military force to keep control of Ukraine.
 
Being willing to commit violence by proxy, via bombs and/or sending in troops, does not require being tough. The people at the top aren't the ones at risk of death or injury. In the USA, it takes more resolve (toughness) to avoid the violence option over any alternatives due to the constant harping of the hawks.

With Libya and Syria, Obama saw that he was widely criticized when he attempted to avoid using military support or action and equally criticized when he suggested using it. Nothing he can or will do will keep him from being criticized. In my opinion, every possible non-violent tactic needs to be exhausted before we even consider getting involved militarily. This is the type of situation that can lead to another World war or cold war. Some people salivate at that prospect, but it will bring a lot of misery.
 
I do not know who is "Peter the Great" but whether Putin is delusional or not it makes no difference. There should be consequences to his breaking the Ukrainian treaty unilaterally.
 
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